Why does any ammo work in military sniper rifles?

[herrwalther]

No No No and a thousand more No. The military does not handload their own ammunition for long range shooting. I have no idea where that started but it is downright ridiculous. The simple logistics needed to develop a load for each individual rifle is something the military, as a whole does not have time for.

I was a DM (Designated Marksman) for my Afghan deployment and got thrown in a few times to be a spotter for a scout using an M24, M14, or once a M82. The ammo put in those rifles came in a box just like what I shot in my M4. That box came from a helicopter and farther down the line a factory. The scout I worked preferred to use the designated ammo for long range shots but *could* use linked ammo that was stripped down if needed. The farthest cold bore shot I was around for was about 650 if I remember correctly. It was an easy shot for our scout because it was from base at a HVT that he watched for a few hours.

 

[C-grunt]

I was a DM for my second deployment to Iraq in 05. I had the M16 variant and was issued a 500 round case of M262. The longest actual sniper shot our guys took that deployment was 350 meters. I made a 410+/- meter shot with my DMR.

My first tour I was selected to be my team leaders spotter as he was given the company M24 prior to the invasion. We shot it some in Kuwait but never actually used it in Iraq. He had probably 100 rounds of M118lr.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

No No No and a thousand more No. The military does not handload their own ammunition for long range shooting. I have no idea where that started but it is downright ridiculous. The simple logistics needed to develop a load for each individual rifle is something the military, as a whole does not have time for.

Well damn it, it said so somewhere on the interweb. Why would I think it could possibly be wrong?

Yeah, I think they probably do for the competition shooting team, but that's probably it.

 

[Laphroaig]

I believe the AMU loads (or at least they used to) their 600 yd. ammo for highpower competition. That might be because commercial 80 grain offerings aren't (or weren't)readily available.

I think that much factory ammo, especially that designated as "match" ammo, is some pretty accurate stuff. I wouldn't put it down as inferior to handloaded ammo in any way. Sure, you can tinker and maybe find a slightly more accurate load for your particular rifle. Maybe not.

Laphroaig

 

[PBR Streetgang]

I shot some leg matches along side military competitive shooters.......they taught me the value of Mexican Match ammo.................

There is a book by Ed McBride called "A Rifleman Went To War" he covered shooting military ammo long distance in WW1 ................great factual book........... if you're a serious military shooting history buff, this is a need to read/own...........

 

[Tirod]

Read sniper biographies, and you read they get boxes of factory precision ammo issued to them, and if the lot number changes, they go out and shoot it to determine how it flies differently than the previous lot.

They keep a notebook that details the exact holdovers they need using it. They shoot almost daily - many times, all day.

"They are better at it" because that is about all they do. They don't ride around in HMMV's all day guarding convoys, altho sometimes that is a mission. They don't sit in garrison waiting for missions, the Commander has a full schedule of requests and more. They don't often wander aimlessly in the hills searching for a target, they are inserted with a definitive map, timetable, and specific target.

Frankly, with just one lot of ammo to deal with at a time, they shoot it until they can predict it's performance, then, off to live targets. They don't fiddle with the recipe, load up ten varying batches, go back out and fire all them, then reflect on the results for days trying to understand the relationships. They aren't looking for the sweet spot in barrel harmonics because they don't reload in the field - they just use what they have and try again if they miss.

They have other considerations to worry about than trying to narrow a .5 MOA probability at 850 meters - like, what's in the way of their ballistic flight path? Will that string of road lights be at the apex of the flight curve and interfere? Can they shoot over something to hit the target, or do they need to move to another floor in the building, and can they while still defending the position?

They don't obsess over the last possible increment of accuracy - until they get put on a competition team. THEN they bother going thru all those motions looking to get the best accuracy out of the loads. After that, it's really all about reading wind and simply getting into the groove of shooting well. Once the load is developed, messing with it isn't productive, but shooting 1,000 rounds of it is.

They don't work for just the sweet spot in the ballistics variables, they work for the sweet spot in their shooting ability. Having consistent ammo helps in that regard, not constantly changing ballistic curves that can't be predicted. It's out of their hands, anyway. It's range in the lot# and move on - those that were blessed to get even that level of control.

Read their biographies, the answers aren't always in internet forums.

 

[mnhntr]

You are looking at this all wrong. The military hits man sized targets. This can be done with an iron sighted m16 at 600yds. I served in the early 90s Desert Storm era and the snipers definitely do not handload as others have said. Most of the ammo is contract from companies such as Black Hills and Federal. If I am not mistaken Black Hills has a few exclusive ammunition contracts for specific weapons systems such as the MK12 with the 69gr and 77gr offerings. I can hit a man sized target all day long with my .260rem at 1k yds with most quality factory match ammo but to get that down to MOA or 10in I prefer to go the load development route.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I served in the early 90s Desert Storm era and the snipers definitely do not handload as others have said.

I believe we have more than established that I was wrong in that thinking.

 

[hentown]

Trained military snipers are much less likely to suffer from the OCD that we proletarian reloaders/long-range shooters suffer.

A lot of the procedures mentioned by the OP for his fine-tuning his loads are probably superfluous.

 

[herrwalther]

Well damn it, it said so somewhere on the interweb. Why would I think it could possibly be wrong?

Yeah, I think they probably do for the competition shooting team, but that's probably it.

Apologies that line was not largely directed at you. This rumor is far wide and reaching. I wore a military themed T-shirt to a gun show once where a man approached me asking if I knew what loadings military snipers used. I facepalmed later.

 

[morcey2]

I've seen several sniper-themed shows on History and the Military channel that show them handloading ammunition, and it is specifically for competition shooting, not for combat. (since the history channel can never be wrong! )

Matt

 

[aka108]

I have no idea what ammo is used in sniping. I did see on the Military Channel serveral years ago a program covering some sniper rifles used in the Marine Corps. I went into the detail the armorers went into to tune a rifle and develop loadings specifically for that individual rifle to gain optimum performance from it. Be nice if someone who was a genuine sniper would tune in here and give us the real story.

 

[RPRNY]

I'm not a military sniper but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night and I have worked around the military quite a bit, especially USMC. It goes like this:

In theory: "Scout Snipers (MOS 0317) shall be issued ammunition specially loaded to maximize the capabilities of the specific firearm issued in that role". In practice; "Here's some sh...stuff the Army didn't want. Do your best, Marine".

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I did see on the Military Channel serveral years ago a program covering some sniper rifles used in the Marine Corps. I went into the detail the armorers went into to tune a rifle and develop loadings specifically for that individual rifle to gain optimum performance from it.

I saw that show too. It was part of the reason I was under the impression that they were all handloaded. They showed some of the armorers loading on a Co-ax press IIRC.

 

[jmr40]

Why does any ammo work in military sniper rifles?

It doesn't.

You can give a rifle and ammo capable of shooting .2 MOA to lots of people who cannot do any better with it than a rifle and ammo only capable of 1 MOA.

But by the same token, even the worlds best shooters aren't going to make any rifle shoot any better than it or the ammo is capable of. If they are working with a 2 MOA rifle/ammo combo, even they can't make it shoot .2 MOA regardless of their skill.

I think it is clear that at least some in the military do use handloaded ammo. It might not be common, but it obviously does, or has happened.

But I don't think it really matters. If the ammo is factory loaded to very strict specs, and shot in accurate rifles it will be just as good as handloaded ammo. The only real difference in handloads and most factory loads is the extra care given. That can be done with factory loads, if you're willing to pay the price. I can buy 308 factory loads for under $20/20 rounds. Consistent accuracy just isn't there. On the other hand some of the premium loads selling at $50+/20 rounds are just as accurate as any of my handloads. But I can get the same results for less than the cheap ammo by handloading.

 

[Detritus]

I saw that show too. It was part of the reason I was under the impression that they were all handloaded. They showed some of the armorers loading on a Co-ax press IIRC.

If that's the show I'm remembering.. the whole thing was greatly misleading. they combined info on Marine scout/Snipers with scenes of work being done at the Precision Weapons Shop on rifles for competitive use. Made it seem that Marine Corps snipers were receiving true custom rifles and ammo

two things that stick out in my mind from the PWS footage:

If you look carefully during the reloading scene, they show a tray full of .338LM cases charged with corn cob tumbling media...

And, the rifle(s) shown being built just prior to the "reloading" scene wasn't an M40 but a .338LM chambered LR match rifle.

 

[goon]

In a military context, it's far better for the rifle to be able to work acceptably well with ammo pulled from links. Because you may have to pull ammo from links to have any ammo at all.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

It's not about custom tailored ammo, it's all about knowing your gun and what it can and can't do under different circumstances.

There is no magic ammo only long and hard practice sessions. Trigger time, not ammo!

 

[jaysouth]

Never been a Marine, but they are under the impression that some folks at Quantico are handloading ammo for EACH sniper rifle shipped to the fleet. The video I saw showed jarheads (nothing but love guys) loading rounds and packing them with data sheets into the case with a sniper rifle. The troops in the video were wearing Marplat cammies, so this cannot be too old.

We have established that the Army does not handload, but are there any Marines out there with good G2 on this?

A young friend and former employee told me that his SFOD A took M-118s to the sandbox with their bolt action 7.62s. Can't say what the rest of the army was doing.

 

[morcey2]

I have a son who just signed up for the Marines and heads to San Diego at the end of April. Ask me in about a year and I might have more info.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

If you look carefully during the reloading scene, they show a tray full of .338LM cases charged with corn cob tumbling media...

I'm no expert on the .338 Lapua but that doesn't seem like it would produce the optimum velocity needed for long range shooting.

 

[Tirod]

They may be handloading ammo, are they getting feedback data on how to adjust the load to specifically make it better?

Didn't think so. No point anyway, other than precision assembly. What if a sniper shares with another shooter? The military WILL cross load and share ammo whenever needed, hour by hour if necessary.

So much for specific rifle recipes. Right out the window.The working environment precludes bothering about it - which those who have served understand, and those who haven't, don't have any clue about. They simply predict based on their sunny Saturday range practice.

Not.

Watching a TV program to get the inside story is the least reputable source I can imagine.

 

[Guns&Religion]

I think it's important to remember that these military snipers do this sort of thing for a living, so they get LOTS of practice time, with all the expensive premium ammo they can shoot. I'm lucky to shoot once a month, with the cheapest ammo I can find from Wal-Mart.

 

[morcey2]

I'm no expert on the .338 Lapua but that doesn't seem like it would produce the optimum velocity needed for long range shooting.

The corn cob media is just a filler over 13 gr of Red Dot.

 

[Jeremy2171]

The TV show showed the loading room at WTBN Quantico....home of THE USMC Rifle Team. The ammo that is loaded there is for the Teams use. I shot on the Base team and we used BHA 77s for our normal events but when we shoot 1000yds we got a hook up from the team and I "think" it was 90grn SMKs for the long range event.

THAT is what that loading facility is for. NOT for "sniper" use or regular distribution.

Snipers get regular old "factory" ammo from a standard DODIC depending upon the need.