Why does any ammo work in military sniper rifles?
- Thread starter mugsie
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Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Jon Weiler, at a Barret long range class I took, talked about how they were issued corrosive Korean War vintage .50 BMG ammo for their Barretts.
The reason why snipers do so well with a variety of ammo is that they usually actually practice with the particular ammo that they are using and know how it will perform and compensate accordingly.
Also, despite apparent omission by numerous authors, snipers don't hit their targets all the time. Depending on the sniper books you want to read from the Gulf and Afghan wars, some do talk about difficulties of shots, how many shots it actually took to take down a given target, etc. Snipers are not a sure thing, though they may be exceptionally good.
In the recent book Seal Team 6 (maybe it was Inside Seal Team 6, this is all from memory, sorry) the guy telling the story was deployed in Somalia for this given incident and talked about issues in bonding between the small SEAL group and the Delta boys. At the time, SEAL representation there was by just 1 sniper team of 3 or 4 guys. During a given fight, the author spotted a Somali with an RPG that was attempting to fire on some American soldiers. The Seal team was not the only snipers there. Delta had many of theirs there as well. So the author/sniper set the dope for the distance and fired at the RPG guy as one of the Little Bird helicopters with Delta snipers approached. At nearly 900 yards, he made a perfect head shot. The little bird then flew by the sniper's position and the Delta snipers inside cheering to him something like "Seal snipers rule!"
Turns out, the sniper missed his intended target. He incorrectly set his dope. At that range, he had no expectation of being able to make a head shot and had aimed COM.
That shot did a lot to bond the Seals with Delta members. At that point, the Delta guys knew that they could count on Seal snipers to perform well at range and trust the Seals to have their backs. The sniper telling the story noted that he never admitted to folks while there that the shot was a fluke based on incorrect dope. I thought that was pretty funny. You know, if you are going to screw up your dope, it would be really good that the result be especially effective. However, he could have just as well completely missed. After all, he did screw up and got lucky.
The reason why snipers do so well with a variety of ammo is that they usually actually practice with the particular ammo that they are using and know how it will perform and compensate accordingly.
Also, despite apparent omission by numerous authors, snipers don't hit their targets all the time. Depending on the sniper books you want to read from the Gulf and Afghan wars, some do talk about difficulties of shots, how many shots it actually took to take down a given target, etc. Snipers are not a sure thing, though they may be exceptionally good.
In the recent book Seal Team 6 (maybe it was Inside Seal Team 6, this is all from memory, sorry) the guy telling the story was deployed in Somalia for this given incident and talked about issues in bonding between the small SEAL group and the Delta boys. At the time, SEAL representation there was by just 1 sniper team of 3 or 4 guys. During a given fight, the author spotted a Somali with an RPG that was attempting to fire on some American soldiers. The Seal team was not the only snipers there. Delta had many of theirs there as well. So the author/sniper set the dope for the distance and fired at the RPG guy as one of the Little Bird helicopters with Delta snipers approached. At nearly 900 yards, he made a perfect head shot. The little bird then flew by the sniper's position and the Delta snipers inside cheering to him something like "Seal snipers rule!"
Turns out, the sniper missed his intended target. He incorrectly set his dope. At that range, he had no expectation of being able to make a head shot and had aimed COM.
That shot did a lot to bond the Seals with Delta members. At that point, the Delta guys knew that they could count on Seal snipers to perform well at range and trust the Seals to have their backs. The sniper telling the story noted that he never admitted to folks while there that the shot was a fluke based on incorrect dope. I thought that was pretty funny. You know, if you are going to screw up your dope, it would be really good that the result be especially effective. However, he could have just as well completely missed. After all, he did screw up and got lucky.
Jeremy2171
Member
jcwit
member
Remember guys, its supplied by the lowest bidder!
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
So, this is the way it works on the stuff that starts with an MK.
In an established cartridge, like 7.62, the operators will identify a shortcoming with the ammunition and or weapon they are using.
This shortcoming becomes a capability gap.
A requirements document is generated (an Initial Capability Document, Capability Development Document, or a Capability Production Document), which is than looked at very hard to determine if the capability already exists in the market, or needs to be developed. These documents are created by the program offices responsible for a given commodity.
Once the capability has been identified as available commercially, or enough R&D has been performed to meet the requirement, the product is procured.
In the case of ammunition, there are a large number of paramters that must be met, including precision from a test barrel. For the sake of the argument, lets say the precision requirement is .5 MOA at 300m.
When the weapon isbeing developed, the precision is defined as "can shoot any given lot of ammo no worse than .25MOA worse than a test barrel firing the same lot at 300m"
Every lot of ammo received is certified, and a certain number of lots are actually tested to ensure the ammo meets the requirement.
A certain number of the rifles are tested to ensure they meet the requirement with pre-qualified ammo.
A rifle like the MK13 (assembled by NSWC Crane) and the .300WM (goes back and forth between Black Hills and Federal) ammo it uses , which have particularity strict requirements, will have every single rifle and every single lot of ammunition tested.
Basically the ammo is made to work in a given weapon, and the weapon is designed to work with a specific ammo. When a new ammo type is introduced, that ammo will have a requirement that it has to shoot reliably in laundry list of weapons, which is validated during procurement.
Nothing in the world shoots current M80 particularly well, because it is, as best, 2MOA ammo from a test barrel. M33 (.50 cal ball) is more like 3-4 MOA ammo. Navy snipers generally use MK211 in their .50s, which are McMillan bolt actions, because the Barretts aren't particularly accurate either.
I went to find a p-spec on fbo.gov, but I couldn't read any of them on this computer. However, if you go to this page, and can manage to open the attachments, you can see the P-spec, and solicitation information.
https://www.fbo.gov/spg/DON/NAVSEA/N00164/N0016408RJN28/listing.html
In an established cartridge, like 7.62, the operators will identify a shortcoming with the ammunition and or weapon they are using.
This shortcoming becomes a capability gap.
A requirements document is generated (an Initial Capability Document, Capability Development Document, or a Capability Production Document), which is than looked at very hard to determine if the capability already exists in the market, or needs to be developed. These documents are created by the program offices responsible for a given commodity.
Once the capability has been identified as available commercially, or enough R&D has been performed to meet the requirement, the product is procured.
In the case of ammunition, there are a large number of paramters that must be met, including precision from a test barrel. For the sake of the argument, lets say the precision requirement is .5 MOA at 300m.
When the weapon isbeing developed, the precision is defined as "can shoot any given lot of ammo no worse than .25MOA worse than a test barrel firing the same lot at 300m"
Every lot of ammo received is certified, and a certain number of lots are actually tested to ensure the ammo meets the requirement.
A certain number of the rifles are tested to ensure they meet the requirement with pre-qualified ammo.
A rifle like the MK13 (assembled by NSWC Crane) and the .300WM (goes back and forth between Black Hills and Federal) ammo it uses , which have particularity strict requirements, will have every single rifle and every single lot of ammunition tested.
Basically the ammo is made to work in a given weapon, and the weapon is designed to work with a specific ammo. When a new ammo type is introduced, that ammo will have a requirement that it has to shoot reliably in laundry list of weapons, which is validated during procurement.
Nothing in the world shoots current M80 particularly well, because it is, as best, 2MOA ammo from a test barrel. M33 (.50 cal ball) is more like 3-4 MOA ammo. Navy snipers generally use MK211 in their .50s, which are McMillan bolt actions, because the Barretts aren't particularly accurate either.
I went to find a p-spec on fbo.gov, but I couldn't read any of them on this computer. However, if you go to this page, and can manage to open the attachments, you can see the P-spec, and solicitation information.
https://www.fbo.gov/spg/DON/NAVSEA/N00164/N0016408RJN28/listing.html
Jeremy2171
Member
What unit?
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Personal chit-chat oughta be via PM, okay?
I recall reading an article about how handloading has changed from the 1930 and 40s to the present. One of the biggest changes had to do with the precision of the parts being built. Bullets are made to closer tolerances today, barrels are made to closer tolerances, chambers are cut to closer tolerances, etc. In the "early" days, you were able to find "THE" load that worked in your rifle because your rifle was a lot different than the next one off the line. Now, tolerances have improved and rifles and ammunition have benefitted. Ammuntion comapanies and armories can load target ammuntion that allow well made rifle to perform. Can you still find the load? Sure, but the odds are it will not significantly improve your rifles ability. Even off the shelf loads have improved.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
towerC, did it have a single chamber muzzle brake and an OPS Inc Suppressor?
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