Why doesn't LE prefer condition #1 ?

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PlayMaker

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Sorry if I'm misinformed but my understanding is that LE and the military do not prefer one in the chamber, hammer cocked, safety on with SA first shot. But instead prefer one in chamber, hammer uncocked, safety on or off (not sure) with DA first shot. Berettas and M9's for example. And I believe I've read of some companies making DAO models to attract LE business. I don't understand why they wouldn't want to opt for SA first pull just by flipping the switch especially with fire pin blocks they have these days. Especially when the first shot is the most important shot.

Any and all input is welcomed and appreciated, thanks in advance.
 
Because with the limited amount of firearms training the average cop or GI gets, they would probably shoot themselves or somebody else.

There is also the public image of a cocked & locked 1911 that just scares the bejesus out of a lot of people.

Many of the larger departments opt for very heavy "NY triggers" in Glocks for instance, to avoid accidents.

The average GI is only in a shooting environment about .00000009% of the time. The rest of the time, he or she probably isn't even issued any ammo. They only get to shoot a handgun once a year to qualify, if they are real lucky.

rc
 
Anything works as long as you practice with it. And as the military issues M9's, you can't carry one cocked and locked to begin with so the point is moot.
 
In reality, those police I've seen that carry 1911s at all, do so cocked and locked.
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And this usually hints that this is an "above average" officer, whom is carrying a personally owned weapon, shoots regularly on their own time, and knows what they're doing... as opposed to those that just shoot the bare minimum with their issued weapon.
 
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Playmaker, Pistols pay such a small role in combat that it's really doesn't make any difference. 99 and 9/10 of handguns are never fired in combat. I was told by a old Korean war platoon leader that the first thing he did in combat was to throw his pistol away and grab a M-1 from a dead South Korean soldier. Safety is paramount in the military, if you have GI'S running around with cocked and locked pistols there will be more self inflicted gun shot wounds than any result from enemy action. Contrary to all of the video games and the movies, the military is not encouraged to act like John Wayne. :)
 
Admin/safety/liability stand point that "cocked & locked" is not safe for the average peace officer/solider.

However, "highly trained" peace officers/soldiers are allowed/issued SAO pistols.

For example...
LAPD patrol = Glock 22 ("DAO"); past issue: Beretta Model 92FS (DA/SA) and S&W Model 4506 (DA/SA)
LAPD SWAT = Kimber TLE (SAO)
LAPD SIS = Kimber SIS (SAO)

FBI agent = Glock 23 ("DAO"); past issue: SIG P-226 (DA/SA) and S&W Model 1076 (DA/SA)
FBI SWAT = Springfield Armory Bureau Model (SAO)

US Army = Beretta M-9 (DA/SA)
US Army CID = SIG M-11 (DA/SA)
US Army AWG = Glock 19 ("DAO")
US Army 1st SFODD = 1911 (SAO)
 
Most officers and NCOs flip when they see someone carrying with the safety off.
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Even when they are on duty? The M9 is supposed to be carried chambered and safety off when on duty.
 
Most officers and NCOs flip when they see someone carrying with the safety off.
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I'm an NCO and I flip when the M9 is carried with the safety on. We have governing instructions implemented as orders stating the M9 is to be carried round chambered, decocked and safety off.
 
Because with the limited amount of firearms training the average cop or GI gets, they would probably shoot themselves or somebody else.
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Talk about a conflict of statements. You've got all these people on the forums screaming that the 1911A1 was MEANT, INTENDED, DESIGNED, and every other synonym known to man-kind, to be carried in Condition 1; AKA:Cocked and Locked. Yet, the M1911 was contracted and designed for the military and by association, Law Enforcement agents in general. The 1911A1 was NOT designed initially as a weapon to be sold to civilians. Yet, we have people saying how much smarter the civilians are than the military and the police when it comes to weapons. Because of their limited training. Well; I contend that probably 98.93754% of most civilians who buy/own/shoot any weapon, probably didn't have ANY FORMAL training whatsoever. And that they aren't smarter or better trained than the military and police.

And because of this allegation; which I believe to be factual, it would also validate that probably, the 1911A1 was NOT MEANT, INTENDED, DESIGNED, etc... to be carried condition 1; AKA: Cocked and Locked. It couldn't have been if the military and police have such limited training; and the weapon WAS DESIGNED DIRECTLY FOR THEM.
 
Why doesn't LE prefer condition #1 ?
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Because some agencies and individuals irrationally think cocked and locked is dangerous.

C&L is perfectly safe. This mentaility is the same one that results in police agencies specifying heavy DA triggers. It's trying to use hardware to make up for software. Personally, I think it's stupid to cripple your hardware because of a training issue.

I am truly suprised that many LE agencies issue handguns which have no manual safeties, like the Glock and S&W M&P.
 
Sorry if I'm misinformed but my understanding is that LE and the military do not prefer one in the chamber, hammer cocked, safety on with SA first shot. But instead prefer one in chamber, hammer uncocked, safety on or off (not sure) with DA first shot.
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According to FM 23-35 (and my own experience) the Army's preferred method of combat carry for the M1911A1 was "Condition 3" -- the chamber empty, hammer down, and the magazine loaded.

If, however, it was deemed necessary to carry a round in the chamber, then "Condition 1" (Cocked and locked) was the mandated standard.

Condition 2 (hammer down on a chambered round) was never authorized.
 
Quote:
Most officers and NCOs flip when they see someone carrying with the safety off.
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I'm an NCO and I flip when the M9 is carried with the safety on. We have governing instructions implemented as orders stating the M9 is to be carried round chambered, decocked and safety off.
Click to expand...

In the Air Force, its carried round chambered safety off.
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In my experience, the uniformed services are not particularly uniform. The Air Force and Navy often do things very differently from the Army, and even within the Army different commands do things differently. And in a combat zone the rules are different as well. In general in Iraq I saw the M9 loaded, hammer down, safety on, though I have seen some carry chamber empty, or safety off. Stateside, even when a soldier has a weapon, that I can tell it is not usually loaded unless they are performing some specific duty, and I am sure that varies a lot.

And remember that there are thousands of law enforcement agencies with different needs, histories, administrators, law suits, etc so you will see a wide range of practices and reasoning. Heck you still see rural counties where the deputy carries a Peacemaker.

But the primary reason for the trend toward DAO is mostly liability as far as I can tell. And no matter how you try to accomodate people's wants, someone will be displeased.
 
Why doesn't LE prefer condition #1 ?
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Probably for the same reason my state cop friend is required to carry a little card inscribed with the official 10 or 11 step process for safely clearing his issue Glock everywhere he goes. Decocked DAs are marginally more difficult to ND than SAs. Apparently in law enforcement that same thinking extends to the striker-fired guns the manufacturers try to pass off as DA, as well.
 
Mr. Vern Humphrey, I don't want to start a word war here, but I too have served in the military, 26 years worth in fact, In those 26 years of Army service, I have never seen any service menber carry a 1911 cock and locked, not even in combat. Not a MP. Not a grunt,not a gate guard, not a platoon leader, no snake eaters, not anyone. :confused:
 
I'm an NCO and I flip when the M9 is carried with the safety on. We have governing instructions implemented as orders stating the M9 is to be carried round chambered, decocked and safety off.
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I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm an NCO as well, and I've always carried mine with a round in the pipe and with the safety (I use it solely as a decocker) off, but most officers and NCOs that you run into (and yes, this even happens in the infantry) really don't have a clue about the operating principles of the weapons their troops carry. So if a safety is off, they have these fears of an ND, their promotion being blocked, etc... The mentality now is "By gosh you be afraid of that weapon because it will get up in the middle of the night, load itself, and kill someone." Sadly, risk aversion has become so institutionally ingrained that it trumps almost all else-including accomplishing the mission
 
Mr. Vern Humphrey, I don't want to start a word war here, but I too have served in the military, 26 years worth in fact, In those 26 years of Army service, I have never seen any service menber carry a 1911 cock and locked, not even in combat. Not a MP. Not a grunt,not a gate guard, not a platoon leader, no snake eaters, not anyone.
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As a Company Commander in Viet Nam, I carried my M1911A1 cocked and locked.

The authority for doing is FM 23-35. You can find the 1940 edition here: http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm

To the best of my recollection, the edition in force when I was in Viet Nam wasn't materially changed with regard to methods of carry.
 
I saw an MP at NAS Jax. one evening. He had his 1911 cocked and locked. Of course I have no way of knowing if he had any ammo or if he did if he had a round in the chamber.
 
In every case that I've talked with LEO's they carry with one chambered and ready to shoot. It makes absolutely no sense not to.
Military: In Vietnam, yes we carried loaded and ready to fire on all combat missions, I wasn't issued a handgun, (I didn't like the .45 anyway), but I did carry a .357. It was "beaten" into our heads in boot camp to keep your finger off the trigger. But back then the TI's still carried swagger sticks, and it only took once to get the point across.
 
Well, I guess there's a lot of things I was unable to witness, and there may well have been incidences where the 1911 was so carried.:) So you were and officer , company commander ,Mmm, that's surprising, you seem like an intelligent person otherwise.:evil:
 
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I really don't see what difference it makes, just so long as the soldier/sailor/airman/marine knows the status of their weapon and can quickly put down fire upon the enemy if so needed.
 
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