Why has LE drifted away from 9MM?

[kev778]

And so, US LEO has generally followed suit on a decision mostly based on cowardice and buck passing. Status quo for bureaucracies.

Ain't that the truth, HorseSoldier!!

 

[AZ Five seveN]

Honestly, there isn't a whole lot of reason to switch between the calibers.

If it were my choice, and I had to choose a duty caliber, I'd carry my Five-seveN. Unless you carry a .454 or .500, it really makes no difference. It all comes down to shot placement and follow up shots.

 

[snakyjake]

Out of all the military conflicts and law enforcement reports from all over the world for the past decades, has there ever been a conclusive study that declares 9mm, 40, 45 better? It's not like there's a lack of evidence in the world.

I remember reading a while ago about a guy working in LE who collected caliber results in the U.S. to study the effectiveness. He concluded in his report that he couldn't find evidence to support one caliber over another. That means the number of people shot with a 45 didn't stop them, just as if shot with a 9mm. Mentioned calibers didn't make a difference in any of the data he collected.

I haven't seen a different conclusive report, so I'm thinking whatever the LEA is doing has nothing to do with facts and evidence.

But if there's a conclusive report, please direct me to it.

Jake

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

I would bet that more people have been killed by FMJ 9mm rounds then any other pistol round ever simply because it has been so widespread for so long.

 

[snakyjake]

I find it intriguing the Israeli military, LE, and civil "army" uses high capacity 9MM, and they have far more threats, real incidences, and experience than the U.S. Not sure if it is because anything above 9MM doesn't matter, or perhaps 9MM is a very universal round (i.e. Uzi).

I'm very interested to see results from other LEA around the world that have far more SHTF scenarios than the U.S.

Jake

 

[bestseller92]

Because, even though the 9mm has excellent stopping power with modern loads, officers simply and understandably have more confidence in larger calibers like the .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .45 GAP and .45 ACP. And the more confident you are in your weapon, the better you'll perform with it.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Stepping momentarily off the line and into sub-topic world:

I recommend that those interested in the subject of caliber efficacy read Shooting to Live, by Fairbairn and Sykes (a 1942 vintage book). Read Chapter 11, Stopping Power. You can download the .pdf here: www.safeism.com/texts/ShootingToLive.pdf

I'll sum it up. They saw a lot of men shot with a lot of different types of weapons and calibers. They saw unexpected failures to stop and unexpected successes. Here are their conclusions (most of them paraphrased):

• Nothing is guaranteed to work. But to increase your chances of success, consider this: bigger is probably better, but we can't prove it, and in fact have much evidence to contradict it. So...
• Carry calibers of these, or approximate, sizes: .32, .38 and .45.
• Fire in “bursts” of two or more shots.
• Large volumes of fire are advantageous.
• Have as many rounds as possible at one's disposal without having to reload.
• Extreme rapidity of fire is vital.
• “The more closely our own pistols resemble machine-guns the better we like it.”

So, basically, nothing has substantively changed in the philosophy of handgun fighting, and the shift from 9mm to .40 (or any caliber), is likely statistically insignificant.

Thus getting back on track...

I agree with bestseller92 and others that the shift from 9mm to anything else is largely driven by the belief that anything else will be better, as long as it's bigger. As far as I can tell, that conclusion is just as unjustified now as it was when Shooting to Live was published in 1942.

 

[Jim NE]

I like the above post. Yes, this debate is very interesting when you consider that the New York police once eagerly adopted the .32 S&W Long. Kind of hard to believe today.

In the 1950's, cars went from 100 hp to 200hp, but by the early 60's, 200 hp was nothing special. By the late 60's it was "inadequate."

Lewis and Clark were the first (or among the first) white hunters to kill a Grizzly Bear, and they used a muzzle loading rifle.

Whether it's cars or houses or products or guns, the same problem always arises - it's hard to separate our legitimate need for progress from our PDS (perpetual dissatisfaction syndrome.)

 

[918v]

My agency switched from 9mm to 40 this year. This is after a series of shootings where the 9 didn't do too well against cars. Not that the 40 would have done etter, but yall need to understand that the people who make these decisions aren't too bright.

(Ready for my warning points )

 

[BRE346]

Advice to me at the time was "Carry the biggest caliber you can manage." I qualified with a borrowed .45 bu tit was too heavy. A .40 was still big and heavy. I can manage a 9mm.

 

[The Reverend]

The universal notion that "bigger is better"... or is it "newer is better"...

Two very common that have driven irresponsible spending in the personal, corporate, and government arenas.

 

[kev778]

Just an FYI. The bullet that was used to kill bin Laden may have been a 9mm

Seeing as the Navy Seals and most Spec Ops generally use the HK MP5 for a sub-machine gun then one could argue that a 9mm took him down.

However, they may have been using the CAR-15 or M4 carbine. Those use the 5.56 NATO.

Just food for thought..

 

[Rob96]

Arguing which handgun caliber is just ridiculous. With modern ammunition there is no difference. Choose a platform and caliber that you shoot well. Hits count. There many real deal guys that are just fine with the 9mm and have used it successfully.

 

[Rob96]

Just an FYI. The bullet that was used to kill bin Laden may have been a 9mm

Seeing as the Navy Seals and most Spec Ops generally use the HK MP5 for a sub-machine gun then one could argue that a 9mm took him down.

However, they may have been using the CAR-15 or M4 carbine. Those use the 5.56 NATO.

Just food for thought..

Subguns have pretty much have taken a back seat. Are they still in the toolbox? Probably. But they are pretty much done.

 

[Glockeroo]

I think what's missed here is that people tend to think only one shot is going to be fired at a perp. In reality, I have no doubt that a double tap with quality 9mm JHP's will stop an attacker. There's not many crazy super lunatics out here.

9MM is more than fine. I carry 124 gr Speer Gold Dots. I have the highest confidence they will get the job done.

 

[Guns and more]

I shoot mostly 9mm, because it's cheaper per round, so I practice more.
I don't care what cops use.
I'm not running into a bank robbery or a riot.

 

[rhoggman]

One reason Maine switched was because a Trooper would have to empty his weapon to dispatch a whitetail at a car/deer accident. They looked under gunned standing on the side of the road firing shot after shot at a thrashing wounded deer. The .45 silences then pretty quick. They also carry carbines in .45 which turns out to be a nice weapon in any armed situation.

This has to be one of the most ridiculous accusations I have ever heard.

Any cop who cannot figure out how to kill a whitetail at virtually point blank range should not be trusted with a gun. A Single Action 22lr would be more than sufficient for this task.

 

[BADUNAME47]

Its the Hits that Count!

Back in the 1970's I was invited to an informal Sunday afternoon shoot at the local police range in a small town in Tidewater Virginia. At the time I only had a WWII Luger with me.

Several of us shot the course. I used the Luger and a good friend of mine used his .44 Magnum with his "Hot" handloads.

Well, when it was all over, I had won the match.

My friend,who had shot his .44 Magnum, took the contest a little to seriously and made a snide comment to me:

"Well, I was using a .44 Magnum which makes your 9 M/M look wimpy."

My reply: "Which does more damage to a Bad Guy-a MISS by a .44 Magnum or a HIT by a 9 M/M?"

My point: Practice, Practice, Practice because only the "Hits" count regardless of the caliber.

 

[gym]

It was a 45

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Reading this thread is like getting shot with a 9mm.

 

[klingy]

Because police administrators, much like the general public, do not do their own research and are spoon-fed "facts" by others which they interpret as truth.

I once had my own director of training tell me that the 9mm was not good because, "it travels too fast". Wow! Using THAT logic, the .357 Magnum (not to mention, any rifle cartridge) is downright pathetic.

 

[KenW.]

Just an FYI. The bullet that was used to kill bin Laden may have been a 9mm

It doesn't matter. A .22 LR at close range into the brain would do it too.

 

[1prcntr]

I am personally switching back to 9mm from .40.

 

[mister2]

Takes two to tango.

1. How many procurement specialists or officers would buy something else if they were buying for themselves with their own funds? More than a few, I'd bet.

2. And how many marketing reps would buy different guns from what they sell if they were spending their own money at retail? Or discounted retail (face it, no one ever buys at what institutional buyers pay)? Marketing can come in many insidious forms: defining what "better" means, offering institutional prices we retail buyers never see, taking old guns in trade, etc. Guns may not be better, but the salemen are.

 

[918v]

"it travels too fast"

I heard that one too. The BS'r added the speed causes it to zip right through the attacker and kill innocent children. 38 Special, on the other hand, travels more slowly and can expell its energy inside the target.

This is what happens when you hire people who feel training is superior to education.