I know there were full auto 1911's made in 38 super, but why did it stop there? Why not a thompson in 38 super, seems like back in the day(20's) it could have been developed into a super high rate of fire sub gun. Instead it has malingered into close to nonexistance until the 70's when ipsc came about and it turned around, now thousands of guns are produced every year for this cartridge so I am sure it will stick around for a long time.
Why has no one built a 38 super sub gun?
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Sam Cade
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Zundfolge
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Here's one of those FA 1911s for reference (this one's .45acp but I believe there were .38 super versions and if memory serves me right I believe John Dillinger owned one in addition to this .45).
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RhinoDefense
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I've got a full auto Glock 20 with 6 inch barrel chambered in 9x25 Dillon (10mm necked down to 9mm).
Owen Sparks
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I think there were a few Thompsons made in .38 Super. They may have only been prototypes that were never put in to production though.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
<still off-topic>
There are a couple of drum mags for the 1911 available. Hard to slip in your waistband, though.
What I'm wondering abuot is why the "Dillinger/Nelson" gun magazine above had any curvature to it, since the .45 ACP is a straight-walled round.
<return to topic>
The .38 Super is a little bit zippier than most rounds suitable for sub guns, so a blowback system (the usual arrangement for a sub gun) would get heavier. For example, you could design a blowback semi-auto system for the .30-06 cartridge, but the breechblock would have to weigh about 27 lbs.
It's also a semi-rim round, which makes feeding more difficult than a rimless round. (That thought is what prompted my question about the curved mag in the picture, and I wonder if indeed that gun is in .45 ACP as noted in the article.)
Terry, 230RN
There are a couple of drum mags for the 1911 available. Hard to slip in your waistband, though.
What I'm wondering abuot is why the "Dillinger/Nelson" gun magazine above had any curvature to it, since the .45 ACP is a straight-walled round.
<return to topic>
The .38 Super is a little bit zippier than most rounds suitable for sub guns, so a blowback system (the usual arrangement for a sub gun) would get heavier. For example, you could design a blowback semi-auto system for the .30-06 cartridge, but the breechblock would have to weigh about 27 lbs.
It's also a semi-rim round, which makes feeding more difficult than a rimless round. (That thought is what prompted my question about the curved mag in the picture, and I wonder if indeed that gun is in .45 ACP as noted in the article.)
Terry, 230RN
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Jim Watson
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.45 ACP has a nominal .007" taper from mouth to rim. That will add up over 25 rounds. Or less, a 10 round magazine is straight but you can see the taper affecting the angle of the top round.
Agree with Owen on the Thompson trial balloons.
Nobody's army uses .38 Super, there is just no demand for a subgun in that caliber.
Although there were some in longer than Parabellum 9mms like the Steyr and Bergman-Bayard/Largo.
Agree with Owen on the Thompson trial balloons.
Nobody's army uses .38 Super, there is just no demand for a subgun in that caliber.
Although there were some in longer than Parabellum 9mms like the Steyr and Bergman-Bayard/Largo.
I've got some old Thompson catalogs, and .38 Super isn't one of the listed calibres available, but that may be because they were printed for the Models 1921 and 1928, and the .38 Super didn't come out until the 1930s. Thompson was willing to make them in just about any calibre the customer wanted, for a price. The calibres listed in the 1928 catalog include 9mm Luger, 9mm Mauser, .45 ACP, .45 Remington-Thompson (a kind of early .45 Magnum), .45 Auto Birdshot (for riot control and prison guards), and the .351 Winchester Self-Loading rifle cartridge.
macadore
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Why wasn't the M1 Carbine chambered for the 38 Super rather than developing an entirely new cartridge in .30 caliber?
Zaydok Allen
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A "Tommy" gun in 38 Super is what Baby Faced Nelson used to shoot his way out of Little Bohemia in northern WI, I believe.
Millwright
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If memory serves someone did ! The "38 Super" became popular with Depression-era hoods because it would penetrate the "bulletproof" vests of the time as well as the heavy guage steel of car bodies. And unknown smith customized a Colt in that caliber for a prominent hood. Its in the FBI Museum, I believe . >MW
C96
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I believe he used a .38 Colt automatic Pistol that had been modified to fire fully automatic. If I remember correctly it was his favorite weapon for his last couple of years. He was a very nasty fellow.
Zaydok Allen
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http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/the-super-38/
Oh yeah. Looks like you are right. Top of page two of the article. It was a full auto pistol that had a Thompson foregrip added. I stand corrected.
Oh yeah. Looks like you are right. Top of page two of the article. It was a full auto pistol that had a Thompson foregrip added. I stand corrected.
barnetmill
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I have never heard of anyone suggesting its use. There was already a .351 autoloader that had 30 US Car velocity and I assume that was a little too much recoil with the 180 slug it fired. They may have settle on .30 cal for several reasons. One was the familiarity with the Pedersen Device during World War I. This was an assembly intended to allow battlefield conversion of the Springfield to a .30 cal cartridge very similar externally to a later french cartridge that was sort of a .32ACP long. There was also a .32 SL cartridge IIRC for the Winchester Model 1905 rifles that is not that different from the .30 US Car. The MI carbine is also not that different from the highspeed loading of the 32-20 that no longer exists. All of this influence the thinking of the US military.
Jim Watson
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M1 carbine round is said to be based on .32 WSL adjusted to .30 cal the Army was used to and souped up for locked action instead of blowback.
MachIVshooter
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Or just use the roller delayed system that has worked for many high-pressure handgun and rifle cartridges in SMG's, assult rifles and MG's.
The HK MP-5/10 didn't seem to have any issues, and 10mm runs slightly higher pressures than .38 Super.
JohnBT
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Dillinger's gun is pictured about 3/4ths of the way down this article.
It's the 4th gun pic up from the bottom.
www.vincelewis.net/38super.html
It's the 4th gun pic up from the bottom.
www.vincelewis.net/38super.html
Owen Sparks
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The problem with tooling up to manufacture any sub gun is that it can only be sucessful if you can get a government contract. New automatic weapons are forbidden to commonors and the military no longer uses pistol calibers for anything other than pistols. Even though the .38 Super is a good round for this application, it is not used by the only viable market left, police departments. They almost always use the .40 or 9MM and any new sub gun would have to be in one of those calibers.
mortablunt
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There are some SMG's in 38 super. They weren't exactly successful.
Millwright
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MCD, Possibly because "Carbine" Williams proved so hard to work with in its development ?? >MW
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