38 Super - Idle speculation....

[Peter M. Eick]

I was loading more 38 super today and was wondering about it.

Do you suppose that if the 38 super when released (1929) had been designed more like the 9x23 or 38 super comp (neither has a semi-rim) and if they had headspaced correctly instead of on the rim, things would have turned out a bit differently?

Consider it.

If the 38 super, which today has a reputation for fine accuracy, good power, easy control had been done right back in 1929, how would things be different? We already had it in a 1911 format gun. The 357 Magnum did not exist yet, the 38/44 was not yet around. I think both would have developed because you could not get the same level of power "easily" in a 1911 format gun given the heat treatment available at the time and it would have been pretty hard on the gun.

But, would our love affair with the 45 still exist or would the 38 Super be much more of a contender?

Would the 9mm have taken hold in the states over the last 50 years?

Would the 357 sig even exist?

It would still be hamstrung by the round nosed bullet so until reasonable expanding hollow points could be developed there would be issues, but with the Super, it is a lot easier to get things to expand and 1350 fps then with a 9mm at say 1200.

So speculation time, in your mind, had the 38 super been brought out as it is today back in 1929 how would our handgun scene have developed differently?

 

[mokin]

Interesting thought. I imagine things would be quite different. I can easily see police adopting the .38 Super rather than staying with revolvers as long as they did. This could have had implacations in the "wonder-nine" development that occured - especially in the U.S. and the dediction many shooters have to the .45 ACP.

 

[Fremmer]

Might have affected the development of the. 40 s&w too.

 

[jungle]

It is easy to forget that JMB started out with the .38 ACP in 1900 and continued with that until the US military demanded something in .45.

112 years later the world is still largely using 9mm/.38 as a standard.

9x23 would be an interesting new standard.

An interesting note to this is the .41 Colt auto that might have been and it predated the .40 S&W by a long time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_M1900

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The .38 Super is, of course, the .38 ACP loaded to higher pressures and velocities. If Colt hadn't tried to do things on the cheap, but instead developed a new .38/9mm high velocity cartrige, they might have beaten out Smith and Wesson's .357 Magnum.

 

[rcmodel]

I imagine things would be quite different.

I doubt it.

You would still have a .36 cal FMJ bullet moving about the same speed as a 9mm FMJ of the time.

Old cops, and the old cops bosses holding the purse strings where firmly entrenched in the revolver mentality then.

And a hot loaded .35 single-action pistol, even an accurate one, would not have swayed them one bit to change.

If they wanted an auto, the .45 ACP was available, and was a better stopper with FMJ bullets then a .36 cal would have been.

Keep in mind todays high-velocity JHP pistol bullets where not invented until 1970 something.

rc

 

[BullfrogKen]

Perhaps.

Whatever you do to it the cartridge is still limited to large frame guns. So I imagine the double stack craze would still have edged it out just like it did the .45 when people chased after guns that held more rounds over a slim gun that held fewer, but more powerful rounds.

 

[Coyote3855]

Cops weren't the only people shooting handguns in 1929.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think Douglas Wesson's high pressure advertising had more to do with the .357 beating out the .38 Super than anything else. I can remember as a boy in the 1940s, "Magnums" were something to conjure with.

 

[SaxonPig]

As the 45 ACP was the military round nothing in the 1911 platform would have displaced it. Perhaps the Super was hurt in sales a bit by tales of inaccuracy but most buyers were not serious target shooters. The Super was always a fighting gun first and foremost and it was accurate enough for that purpose.

I would still like to have a polished nickel 1911 in 38 Super.

 

[scramasax]

The 38 super was developed by Colt as a LE round to defeat the car bodies of the day. They were used by some forward thinking departments. But the standard sidearm was still the revolver. The S&W HD 38/44 was also initially done for the same reason. This is what I have read in several sources. Most people don't know that the OSS also issued 38 super 1911s in some cases. Also most people don't know that JB originally designed the 1911 platform for a .41 caliber bullit. Still don't understand why the super case was designed as a semi rimmed though.

Don't have first hand knowledge of these facts. Just read a lot of different books.

Cheers,

ts

 

[Jim Watson]

Also most people don't know that JB originally designed the 1911 platform for a .41 caliber bullit.

We are darned lucky that "most people" don't know something that is not so.
Colt made up two or three .41 auto prototypes in 1903-1904. I doubt Mr Browning had anything to do with them, they were just modifed 1902 Militaries, no new design work.
They pretty much sank without a trace because:
1. The old action was not strong enough for a bigger round.
2. The 1904 Thompson LaGarde trials were carefully performed and interpreted to justify the Army going back to the .45 caliber the brass already had their minds made up on.

So Mr Browning hastily beefed up the parallel ruler action and Colt came out with the 1905 .45 Rimless Smokeless (Close but not identical to the eventual .45 ACP.)

After that, there was no turning back, all handguns seriously considered for the Army were of .45 caliber.


The .38 Auto had a semi-rimmed case to hold headspace. It was the first serious attempt at a straight cased autopistol cartridge and apparently nobody had yet thought of the radical idea of headspacing against a square cut case mouth. (The .25, .32, and 9mm BL are also semi-rimmed.) The 1905 Colt .45 and the 1906 FA .45 introduced that concept to American guns and ammunition, shortly followed by the .380. Maybe they got the idea from the 9mm Luger that was first seen here in 1903.

Probably the reason for the .38 Super's semi-rim was simple convenience. Easiest to just soup up the load and put it in the stronger G.M. action than to redesign the whole cartridge.

Products don't just appear fully developed, there is a learning curve.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I think things would certainly have been different though to what degree is open to speculation.

When the very first things brought up (nearing a full century now) are the semi-rim and headspacing - even if it's only a matter of gun-pop-mythology - they are bound to affect acceptance and thus popularity with the following lack of commercial/martial/LE success.

The viability of the base concept is proven in the continued qualified success due to those willing to massage and tweak for competition, hunting and PD what is otherwise considered by many to be a relative commercial failure.

 

[Jim K]

"It is easy to forget that JMB started out with the .38 ACP in 1900..."

It was not quite that simple or that late. Browning really started around 1896 with the .32 S&W and .38 S&W cartridges*. He found (surprise!) that rimmed cartridges didn't work well through magazines, so he started to trim the rims down until he had cartridges that fed reasonably well but still kept enough rim for proper case support (OK, "headspace" if you must). The idea of supporting a case on its mouth simply never occurred to him, or anyone else much at that time.

So he went with those "semi-rimmed" rounds and was stuck with them when the light dawned, which was about the time one Georg Luger showed up in the U.S. with a 9mm pistol and a cartridge that had no protruding rim (!). The only two cartridges Browning designed after that were the .380 ACP and the .45 ACP and guess what - neither had a rim larger than the base. I think he got the message.

But Luger didn't just have a magic idea. He started out with a case having a shoulder (the 7.65mm Parabellum) for case support, an idea that was based on contemporary rimless rifle cartridges. But the German military wanted a 9mm. So he necked the 7.65 up and found there wasn't enough room for a shoulder for proper case support. Then, his light came on, and he figured out he didn't need a shoulder and could just support the case on its rim.

And it was off and running for rimless auto pistol cases.

Jim

*.38 ACP and .38 Super will chamber and fire in most revolvers chambered for .38 S&W, and .32 ACP in most revolvers chambered for .32 S&W. Since most of those revolvers are old break tops, often made of high quality iron, and the auto pistol cartridges run up some nasty pressures, don't fire the wrong ammo unless you like having pieces of cylinder sticking out of your anatomy!

JK

 

[Jim Watson]

So he necked the 7.65 up and found there wasn't enough room for a shoulder for proper case support. Then, his light came on, and he figured out he didn't need a shoulder and could just support the case on its rim.

There was a preliminary design of 9mm on that head diameter that had a slight but definite shoulder. Maybe it wouldn't have held headspace and they went tapered. Maybe it would have cost a bit more to make. Maybe the taper was enough for headspace control. It was on the early Bergmann rounds which were nearly conical.


(Trust you mean "mouth" not "rim" there at the end.)

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Then, his light came on, and he figured out he didn't need a shoulder and could just support the case on its rim.

Not on the rim, on the case mouth -- which is how the .45 ACP is supported.

The .38 Super was developed as an armor-piercing round, the "armor" in question being automobile bodies, during the era of the "motor bandit." Outlaws would drive into a small town, rob the bank and drive out the other side, often in a hail of gunfire. The standard police weapon at that time was the .38 Special revolver, which would not penetrate car bodies. Smith and Wesson's solution to the problem was the .38/44 -- a high-pressure .38 Special shot in the large .44 Hand Ejector frame. That morphed into the .357 when S&W and Winchester (who developed the ammo) realized that a .38/44 might find its way into a standard .38 Special with disasterous results.

Colt initially approached the "Motor Bandit" problem with the .38 Super, which was offered with a steel-capped "armor piercing" bullet.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Vern,

Think of the time line. The first 38/44's are April 1930 yet the 38 Super was introduced in spring of 28 at Camp Perry and was in full production by May of 29 where it was reviewed in American Rifleman.

Colt basically had a full year head start on the "hot 38" market at minimum and actually one could argue almost 2 years on it.

My thought is that had Colt and Browning dropped the Semi-Rim, headspaced on the mouth and fixed the accuracy problem so the 38 Super was more like a 9x23 then they would have had a much better marketing advantage over the 38/44 Heavy Duties that came out in April of 30.

The 38/44 will edge a 38 super in raw power (1150 with a 158 vs. 1300 with a 130) with similar bullet styles. Both had round nosed metal capped bullets back then.

The situation in my mind is you have 6 slightly more powerful 38/44's out of a big massive N frame vs. 9 38 Supers out of a thinner arguably lighter 1911.

I hate to say it, but I think that if Colt did the 38 Super up correctly back in 1928, I question if the 38/44 would have been that popular. I say this because I am a huge 38/44 fan and collector but I have to recognize the facts at hand.

The real question in my mind could the average police department/shooter accept a semi-auto over a revolver? My contention is that given the positive experience with the 1911 in WW-1, I think it is possible that they might have.

 

[CmdrSlander]

I would like to see a 9x25mm cartridge, .38 Ultra we could call it. Use a 10mm auto case. With a 115 grain bullet that would be a ridiculously high velocity cartridge.

 

[rcmodel]

I think it is possible and very likely they wouldn't have, because they didn't.
And it had nothing to do with .38 Super accuracy, or 1911 availability.

They could have if they would have.
But they didn't.

As I said earlier, the cops & department officials mentality at that time was firmly rooted in revolvers.

And no department or city government had the money during or after the great depression to replace all the revolvers, ammo, and gun belts that they had done just fine with since horse & buggy days.

Keep in mind that in 1936, a 1911 in .38 Super or .45 ACP cost $37.00.
A Police Positive .38 cost $28.00

$9 bucks more per gun, plus new duty belts, extra magazines, different ammo, and training costs would have been a deal breaker in 1936, even if they did want to do it.

But they didn't want too.

rc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Think of the time line. The first 38/44's are April 1930 yet the 38 Super was introduced in spring of 28 at Camp Perry and was in full production by May of 29 where it was reviewed in American Rifleman.

Colt basically had a full year head start on the "hot 38" market at minimum and actually one could argue almost 2 years on it.

My thought is that had Colt and Browning dropped the Semi-Rim, headspaced on the mouth and fixed the accuracy problem so the 38 Super was more like a 9x23 then they would have had a much better marketing advantage over the 38/44 Heavy Duties that came out in April of 30.

My point, exactly.

I hate to say it, but I think that if Colt did the 38 Super up correctly back in 1928, I question if the 38/44 would have been that popular. I say this because I am a huge 38/44 fan and collector but I have to recognize the facts at hand.

The real question in my mind could the average police department/shooter accept a semi-auto over a revolver? My contention is that given the positive experience with the 1911 in WW-1, I think it is possible that they might have.

That's the question -- but in about the same era, many lawmen were using semi-automatics and automatic rifles of various kinds, especially the BAR, the Thompson submachine gun, the Remington Model 8, and so on. So going to a proven automatic handgun in a "super" armor-piercing round isn't such a stretch

 

[Jim K]

Ooops! I meant that Luger realized he could support the case on the case mouth, not on the rim! The result of typing without fully engaging the brain.

Yes, there was an experimental 9mm with a minimal shoulder, but it never went anywhere, and the 9mm Parabellum became a tapered cartridge. Luger never really accepted that case mouth support would give enough obturation and had the Luger chamber made with a "step" about 5mm back from the support shoulder; that oddity was retained until well into the WWII era in the P.08 (it never was used in the P.38 or German SMGs).

FWIW, to give proper case support, a cartridge shoulder has to have a fair amount of bearing; cartridges like the .35 Whelan and the .35 Remington are marginal in that area, and lack of support is a major cause of misfires in Marlin lever action rifles chambered for the latter round. Other cartridges, like the .375 H&H Magnum would not have enough support from the shoulder alone, which is why H&H adopted the belt for better support, not, as many think, to strengthen the case head, which it doesn't do.

Jim

 

[SaxonPig]

Peter, I still question whether accuracy issues had anything to do with the Super not taking off more than it did. As I noted earlier, the Super was never sold as a target grade pistol and nobody used it as such. If it shot 3" at 50 yards or 6" I doubt 99% of the gun buying public knew or cared.

Most cops wanted revolvers. Most auto shooters wanted the proven and military-used 45 ACP. End of story. From the beginning the Super has been a niche gun.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Interesting speculation but rcmodel hit on something. The existing 38 Super, 38/44 and 357's weren't sold in 'vast' numbers because the depression was in full swing.

Colt claimed their Official Police and larger framed revolvers could handle the 38/44 rounds.. and no doubt a lot of officers tried out that 'high speed' ammo. But with tight budgets you could imagine a cop practicing with his issued 38 LRN and then stoking it with 6 high speed rounds for duty.

I've not come across horror stories about not using 38/44 loads in a Colt, the way there were horror stories about don't use 38 Super in a 38ACP.

With the end of WW2 and mountains of surplus guns in the market it's suprising to me that .38 Super is still around. Just enough specialty interest from the police market kept it plodding along. Now most modern loadings are dumbed down to 9mm levels.

38 Super still has some mystique (IMHO) due to the fame of motor bandits and the arms race between cops and robbers, and to the fact that for a while Colt didn't have a lot of domestic competition in centerfire automatic pistols.

IF Colt had 'done it right' we'd no doubt still have it around just like we have the 38 Super.

 

[Jim Watson]

I would like to see a 9x25mm cartridge, .38 Ultra we could call it. Use a 10mm auto case. With a 115 grain bullet that would be a ridiculously high velocity cartridge.

Sorry, Cmdr, it has been done.
It was briefly tested in USPSA but offered no advantage, so is now a niche caliber for velocity fiends. Most usual on 10mm 1911 derivatives, but also available for Glock 20.

 

[C0untZer0]

I wake up every morning and think how different my life would have been if only the 38 Super had actually been more super when I started getting into guns.

Alas, I have nothing but bitter regret...