Why I will not hesitate to shoot a charging dog

[JWarren]

There is a huge difference between one or three dogs that are clearly pets and a pack of wild dogs. If you can't see that difference you scare me.

Sounds good.


Except that I still have 31 puncture scars on my lower legs from a ONE dog attack that occured when I was 15 years old. I am 36 now. I was on crutches due to chipped bone and pain for over a week. The attacker was a 85 pound Chow-Chow.


I'll say it again. It is the responsibility of the OWNER to insure that his or her dog is safe-- and the people that it may encounter. If someone has to protect themselves from an attacking dog, they owner bears the responsibility.

Sorry if my way of thinking scares you.


-- John

 

[marley]

I have been robbed by people and shot at. I don't hold it against all people. The gun is not the only tool. If you have a hammer you think every thing is a nail and that way of thinking is scary. Patrick

 

[76shuvlinoff]

Tough call, currently 5 horses, two cats and a tame rabbit in the barn, two large breed dogs in house. Certainly pro animal or at least pro pet. Digging the last hole for a long time devoted four legged friend was almost more than I could bear I have lost two legged aquaintenances that affected me less.
If I am on a public street or my own property a truely attacking dog or aggressive stray has very very little time to change his mind. It gets complicated on someone elses property with their dog. That's a single dog, with a roving pack there is no choice to make, their owners did that already.

 

[JWarren]

I have been robbed by people and shot at. I don't hold against all people.

Patrick,


It is my understanding that we are talking about "ATTACKING" dogs.

That is a big difference between being "scary-looking."


Hardly a comparision.


As for people, if a person is attacking me, then yeah... They would be defended against with extreme prejudice.


Whether there are different tools is irrelevent. If I am attacked and I defend myself, I am going to do just that. And I am not going to go through all the "what-ifs." I am not going to be arm-chair quarterbacked, either.

The fact is that it is not the responsibility of the person being attacked to consider other tools. It is not the responsibility of the attacked person to know dog behavior. It is not the responsibility of the attacked person to carry or have confidence in other tools.


Responsibility lies with the dog's owner to insure that *I* do not have to be put in a position of having to defend myself from the dog. Period.


-- John

 

[springmom]

I'll say it again. It is the responsibility of the OWNER to insure that his or her dog is safe-- and the people that it may encounter. If someone has to protect themselves from an attacking dog, they owner bears the responsibility.

We need an APPLAUSE smiley.

Well said. If it's coming at me to bite, I have no duty to retreat. We cheer that fact when we're talking about a robber who may kill us; why on EARTH are we so squeamish about the same fact when it's a DOG?

Like JWarren, I love my dogs and spend a ridiculous amount of time and money, not to mention attention and love and play, on them. And I love OTHER people's dogs. I do NOT, however, love pain, infection, physical therapy, and doctor bills. If a dog is going to bite I will not retreat and I will not hesitate to defend against it.

That's not scary, that's just common sense.

Springmom

 

[marley]

A running dog is not an attacking dog. It is true that the onwer is responsible. It is also true that just because you have a gun you don't have to shoot. Not saying don't defend yourself. Just saying think. That is what I was taught. Shooting might be the best choice. It might not. If you have made up your mind that a running dog is " an attacking dog" so be it you might chose poorly. It seems that when you are armed more thing are attacking you that you might have to shoot almost like you are ready for it. Like I said in the first post I have almost shot a dog. I did not have to. Just like with people retreat is sometimes the best option. When I called animal control and told them that dog attacked me. They asked if I had been bit. I said no. They said I was not attacked. Of course that was richmond and animal control never came out that night. I am sure they would have if I had fired. Attacking is a realative term. You might want to find out what it means in your area. Hate for you to get a charge for no reason. People have been charged with crutley to aniamal. I think I would have been if I had not been bit. Of course you won't be bleeding. You will be alive. But you might have legal bills. You might lose your guns. And if there was another way to do it you should think about it.



When you shoot lots of bad things "can" happen. You could miss and hit something else. You might look like you are shooting a a person and they might shoot at you. It should be a last option. Of course you do what you think is best.

You do have some responsibility not to put yourself in that position. I stay out of bad places so bad things don't happen. I am just saying think. Have a plan but think. Patrick

 

[springmom]

Marley, I'm not at all sure we have any disagreement here, because I don't think anyone here has said they'd rashly choose to shoot. We are adults, and I would assume we can tell the difference between an attacking dog and one that is not. I have personally "stared down" a Doberman in the alley behind my house. He was loose from his owner's condo, and he thought that alley was "his". This was in California back in 1980, and I had no gun, and I have never felt such fear. I knew what to do that would give me the best chance of getting out of it intact, and in fact I was uninjured. Had he lunged, all I could have done was to try and grab him from behind and break his neck. Back then, at that age, I probably could have done it. Now? No more than I could go one-on-one with a robber or a rapist without getting hurt. I carry a gun as an equalizer against superior force that comes against me. An attacking dog of any size at all IS a superior force.

Springmom

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Thanks for the info, however I have seen the parallels that show up I have been around chow's that walk around and pay no mind to me and then in the opposite have been charged by a lab full bore, My opinion is if it bites it's going down, if it barks like crazy the owner is gonna get an earful(UPDATE: the one that bit my neighbor apparently is going into quarantine now well seen how things go around here.) thankfully Michigan has the castle doctrine so I in theory could fire and not have a problem,aside from 3 hours of talking to the police, neighbors hating me, and city on my case for "unlawful discharge" I think I'll follow Cosmolines advice.

 

[marley]

Springmom, It seems if armed some people will go to the gun with out trying other options and if a " attacking dog" one that is running in their direction is seen. I agree an attacking dog is another thing. Most people who are just living don't find " attacking dogs". I have only seen one in my whole life. I am more afraid of the dog pulling hard on the leash than the dog off lead. Or the dog that has a long line of chain he has broken. I don't really fear it because I know I will win. I respect the power that dogs have. I also understand them. People who want to shoot at a running dog as a first choice is crazy. Have you tried? What is your back stop? What is the hard surface you are shooting at? Yeah that does scare me. You think a human can cover some ground fast think about the dog.

Not to say humans are like dogs. But shooting and what happens after is the same with both. When you shoot bad things can happen. Things you don't expect. Legal action. I am just saying think.




With people, the first thing to do is get away. Read the blood lust talk that was up in legal for a few days. Anti's will read that and use it against us. All the talk of no retreat no talk and impact weapons it seems like the only thing that will stop a dog is to shoot it. With that thug we avoid, talk, use something less lethal, and as a last resort shoot. Just saying that should always be the thinking. By reading some of the post it is not clear that everyone knows the difference. I have only drawn for real twice. Once was a man with a bat drunk on new years eve at 8 pm. He said he would kill me and my x wife who was a cop at the time. We both told him not to step forward and we both were pointing weapons at him at the time. He thought better of it. He was 15 feet away at the time. Well with in the two second rule. The second time was with the dog I spoke about in the earlier post. I had a line both times and both time we I or we did not have to shoot. The dog in question had its teeth bared and was charging. I drew as I retreated and yelled at the dog. I put the gun toward the dogs mouth. If he touched it he was gonna get shot. Remember when I called animal control they said "I was not attacked" because I did not get bit. Shooting that running dog since I had not been bit yet might have put me in a spot of bother.
In reading alot of the post seems to think that they should shoot first. I don't agree on many levels. There are many post that say thing like " you can't take a chance". Go back and read all of the post people use the word "all" alot. I am just saying think. Be careful and make a good choice. Shooting should never be the first option. Of course things happen fast. Sometimes you are behind the curve already. You have to do what you must.


Just trying to say think. Patrick

 

[Deavis]

Dogs in packs are dangerous

There is a difference between a pack of dogs and a single dog "charging" you. The OP's says a charging dog, well what does that mean? If my dog is in my front yard and I'm playing ball with it and you walk onto my yard and she runs over to you is that charging you? What if she stops on the property line like so many dogs do? How do you differentiate between a dog charging for attack and one who is coming to say hello? Oh wait, it doesn't matter

Once again, many people are so machismo about how they are going to put down a charging dog with their carry weapon while out exercising or something similar. I'm willing to bet that most of the people on here couldn't take down a charging dog with their concealed handgun with any repeatability. Before you dismiss posture, control, and a stick or OC spray as useless think about it a bit more.

If you have time to take a bead on a dog with your carry piece between gasps, don't lie and tell me you jog with a full-size 1911 style 10mm with hi-Viz fiber optic sights and don't breathe hard while running, then that dog isn't charging you. I'm not saying you shouldn't defend yourself but get real about how you are going to actually do it. Hitting a dog running full speed with a handgun while you are winded is a lot different than shooting at a man sized target at 15 yards on Sunday morning with your target gun. Can it be done, sure, but is it the best method?

I run in a rural area, plenty of dogs on porches that aren't leashed. I carry a firearm but I also carry OC spray and a brain. I'm going to engage the latter two before the former because it is the toughest one to make a hit with on a very quick moving target and carries the most potential for liability while offering little benefit over the alternatives I can employ. I can't shoot a dog on someone else's property because until it is off the property, I can't claim with certainty it was a deadly threat. Plenty of people have electronic fences for their animals.

The posturing about guns and dogs is a bit ridiculous sometimes.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

The leash law here in henrico county states verbal control. In other words the dog could be aways away from its owner who might decide to shoot back. Think about that.

I believe everywhere in the USA, dogs are considered property. People are stupid enough to let their dogs run wild, so I suppose there could be people stupid enough to think that they can get away with a defense of, "He was shooting at my dog so I shot him."

With people, the first thing to do is get away. Read the blood lust talk that was up in legal for a few days. Anti's will read that and use it against us. All the talk of no retreat no talk and impact weapons it seems like the only thing that will stop a dog is to shoot it. With that thug we avoid, talk, use something less lethal, and as a last resort shoot.

Again a human being is different. DOGS ARE PROPERTY! Are you comparing human beings to dogs? I can almost hear the "The more I know about people" retorts coming, but I promise, the law will never be on your side there.

People, need to get serious about keeping dogs controlled!

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Well said. If it's coming at me to bite, I have no duty to retreat. We cheer that fact when we're talking about a robber who may kill us; why on EARTH are we so squeamish about the same fact when it's a DOG?

That's a great question. The attitudes and lengths that some dog-aficionados will go to to defend a dog is quite perplexing. It's just an animal, not a person.

 

[rantingredneck]

I had a very frank discussion with a neighbor recently about their dog. I was going out to check our pool one Sunday morning and get ready for a barbecue that afternoon. Well halfway to the pool a dog charged me out of nowhere. Typically I carry even around the house but it was early and I hadn't put on my belt yet so no holster. I was seriously thinking I was going to have to go hand to hand with a german shephard there for a moment. It had broken it's tie out cable and was in my yard. I stood my ground and it backed off.

I went inside, put my CCW weapon in my holster and went to visit the owner two doors down. I told her her dog had been on my property and growled and charged at me. She said, "Oh well he's not used to strangers and it's best to just leave him alone when you see him." I said, "Well you see the problem is I have small children and I'm not used to strange dogs wandering on my property and threatening them or me. I will defend myself and my family if necessary. Please keep your animal restrained."

I haven't had a problem with that dog since.

 

[novaDAK]

I plan on getting a 2oz can of OC spray just for this reason...mainly because since the dog is a slightly smaller target and moving faster and more randomly than a human a cloud of OC I would think might be more effective. I don't know...but a dog can kill just as easily as a human (to a point...depends on dog) so I wouldn't hesitate to use a gun if I felt it necessary.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

She said, "Oh well he's not used to strangers and it's best to just leave him alone when you see him."

That's the attitude I'm talking about. Completely oblivious or uncaring about the welfare of anyone else. I deliver pizzas part time, and I carry OC not just for humans. More than once I've had a dog charge at me barking like mad. And without fail the owners just laugh it off saying "don't worry, he just doesn't know you." I don't know what it is about dogs and their owners that they think their dog can go around unrestrained and get a free pass whenever it bothers or almost attacks someone.

To keep this on topic, I carry a Asp Palm Defender keyring OC sprayer, with a 10% mix. Not the best in terms of range, but it's potent, and doesn't take up much room on my keychain. I have it out with my thumb on the safety every time I get out of my car. And I have my Walther P99 with me in case the OC doesn't do the trick. I always used to think the whole "dog attacking mailman" stereotype was comical and funny. Not anymore. Unrestrained dogs can be disastrous, no matter what a dog lover says.

Here's a tip, get a cage or a leash that is secured to something, and any time you order food, lock the dog up. Confirm the identity of the person at the door first if you feel safer doing that, but don't open the door/screen door until your dog is securely restrained away from you door. You may think a barking growling dog is cute or admirable, but the person at the door doesn't.

 

[The-Fly]

Wow, I stirred up a hornet's nest here

I own 2 dogs, love em to death, would use deadly force to protect them in a heart beat if I had to. That said......

2 years ago, I was walking my mutts (both leashed) around the block near my parents house. They are small dogs, about 20 and 30 pounds respectively, and not aggressive towards other people or animals. While walking on a public street, an unrestrained german sheppard of good size did charge us.

Now I can't out run a charging GS, especially with 2 leashed dogs of my own. In a very quick moment, I picked out a spot about 20 feet in front of me, and decided if the GS hit that spot, I was going to engage. At about the 30 foot mark, I had my hand on the grip of my G26, and was about to start my draw cycle. At about 25 feet, the GS stops, snarls in a very hostile manner (this was not a "hello" bark, or "Stay away" bark, more like a "I'm gonna chew on your intestines" type bark), then turns around and just leaves.

When I got back to my parents house, I mentioned it to my dad. My dad wasn't the least bit surprised, saying he had gotten several complaints about that same dog (he's the head of the HOA). I told my dad he might want to warn the dog owner that his pet was 5 feet or less from being fed as many 147gr HST's as I can crank off before becoming fido bait.

As a dog owner, my 2 cents is: If you own a medium or large sized dog, and its the LEAST bit aggressive, either keep it leashed, chained, fence, whatever, or risk having it being taken out.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

What are the odds of a dog attacking a full grown man instead of the weak or a female. Dogs have a "pack" instinct and will do things that ordinarily they will never do. The "prey" instinct really comes out when they have formed a pack. If you see a group of dogs that have already formed a pack you need to determine if you are in their territory and back out slowly. It never pays to turn tail and run.
If you come across an aggressive dog, the same applies. If he is snarling at you his thinking is you are trangressing into his territory.
These type of dogs have never been taught by their master (the owner) "mastered" if you will. and only deem you as another dog. It is not the dog's fault. These type of dogs that are permitted to roam the neighborhoods will form a pack and will exhibit "packing" charactersticts. It's in their nature.
If you love walking then carry a stout walking stick. Always face the pack. More often than not this unrefined and undeveloped pack will not circle you but leave you alone. Slowly back away, slowly. Never ever run. This triggers the dog or dogs to chase.
Dog attacks are most always preying on the weak, children, women.
Train yourself to stand your ground if in the event you face this kind of issue.
Most dogs understand the command GO HOME even if they have never heard the command before. Trust me.
#1 Face the dog DO NOT RUN
#2 Give the command in a very loud voice GO HOME!
#3 If the dog doesn't go away then back away slowly

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Pack Mentality

A long-time dog lover and dog-owner I feel responsible for my dog's environment, training, and yes behavior. When I was a child I was attacked twice - and came out of it okay.
However, one can't help but notice a different mentality and behavior when it comes to dogs running in packs.

As much as I'd hate to shoot someone else's dog, I always think owners should be outside WITH their dogs, and preferably on a leash for the protection of both the dog and other people. Like you, when I hike or jog, I'm carrying and now that I've considered it it seems like some other tools should be added to the arsenal - i.e. sound emitters that daze a canine, a loud whistle, and probably some type of chemical agent.

 

[madmattmd]

My one and only experience with a “charging” dog (don’t get me started on my Wife’s Uncle’s sneaky-a** Staffordshire Terrier that bit me in the butt when I wasn’t looking!) was some years ago.

At our first house, the useless folks at the end of the street has a Great Pyrenees (a huge dog, over 150 lbs.) that they kept tied up in the back yard. Being idiots, they couldn’t manage to keep this thing actually tied up and it would often escape. The dog had a real aggressive disposition. Many neighbors had called the police and animal control in the past. This particularly fine Spring day found me doing yard work. I heard some loud barking and turned around to see the dog barking and charging my neighbor’s three year old son Patrick on his Big Wheel in his yard. The kid, who was afraid of dogs anyway, was petrified. I grabbed a stick (tree limb), approached the dog waiving the stick and yelling at the top of my lungs. The dog turned on me, allowing Patrick’s Mom to grab him and run into their house. The stinkin’ dog then charged me, at which time I threw the stick at him and ran to my house. I grabbed my .45 and jacked a round into the chamber. I went on to my front porch and was prepared to shoot the dog when his owner came running down the street. She managed to get a hold of the dog and was beginning to drag the thing back up the street when she started mouthing off about the gun. I told her I was prepared to shoot the dog and deal with the consequences, if any. I removed the magazine and jacked the round out of the chamber in front of her to show her that she was very close to losing the dog. Definitely not brandishing the pistol or acting in any way to threaten her. Off she went. The police arrived at her house soon after and I expected a visit, but oddly enough, no one ever came to see me?

I now live the country and although I can see my neighbor’s house, they’re far enough away that I usually get to talk to them when I’m mowing. That said, we do have coyotes in our area of Maryland and I usually carry (or have something close by) while working in the yard. I’d rather shoot a predator than explain to my Wife why I couldn’t save her beloved Cocker Spaniel.

Matt

 

[alucard0822]

As a dog owner, my 2 cents is: If you own a medium or large sized dog, and its the LEAST bit aggressive, either keep it leashed, chained, fence, whatever, or risk having it being taken out.

The attitude of many dog owners is the biggest problem here, just like the parents of the "little angel" that goes around flattening tires, poisoning pets and breaking windows, people think that their precious doberman just wants to play, and can't understand that it is an animal first and foremost, and not some type of innocent child. Some of the habits "pet lovers" develop can either put their beloved pet in danger, or other people. IMO proper restrainment is a neccesity, spaying or neutering dogs not intended to be bred also keeps the numbers of feral dogs down, and spending more time with your pet, esecially structured excercise helps keep it "civilized".
The last thing I want to face is being forced to shoot someones pet in order to avoid a trip to the emergency room and a few dozen stitches (and in MD probably a felony)
And MadMatt brings up another good point with all the damn coyotes around here, it can be just as important to keep critters out of your yard and away from your pet, as it is to make sure your dog meets people under control and leashed.

side note: Iv'e had to shoot 2 coyotes in my fenced in yard, they dig up the fence and slip under to go lick the grease from the grill, or eat out of my dog's bowl. I have found a foot wide strip of chickenwire tied to the bottom of the fence has stopped them digging to get in, but needless to say, my dog doesn't go in the yard unsupervised, and I always bring a 2oz can of fox labs during dogwalks and yardwork.

 

[Tokugawa]

Matt, you have great restraint. I believe that if the dog was seen charging a little kid on a big wheel, you would have been well within MORAL (as opposed to legal) grounds to walk up and kill it even after the owner had regained control. Absolutely NO WAY should such an animal be allowed to live, and roam in the neighborhood.

 

[Clipper]

Hey SFC, you can do what you like, but in my state (the state, BTW, that the subject incident occured in) I have the right to walk down the sidewalk without fear of some aggresive animal (which by law does not have the right to be loose under A-N-Y circumstances) even approaching me, let alone having to jump through behavioral hoops to stay in one piece. I refuse to buy the 'don't hurt the poor doggie' line. An aggressive dog on the loose comes within 10 feet of me, it's done. I have told owners of aggressive dogs who thought it was funny to let them intimidate people that if I get bitten, I'd shoot their dog in front of them if necessary. Yeah, yeah, I know some internet commando will now say if anyone did that they'd shoot them, but I really don't think anyone in their right mind is gonna try to throw down on an already agitated man holding a gun, but that's OK if they're dumb enough to die over a stupid mean dog.

 

[springmom]

If you love walking then carry a stout walking stick. Always face the pack. More often than not this unrefined and undeveloped pack will not circle you but leave you alone. Slowly back away, slowly. Never ever run. This triggers the dog or dogs to chase.
Dog attacks are most always preying on the weak, children, women.

When I walk it is with my dogs. And as I am a woman, I suppose I qualify as being in danger by your system. A charging dog puts both me and my dogs at risk. I will not carry a walking stick to defend; and I can't even imagine trying to deal with an attacking dog while managing my own two at the same time.

Once again, many people are so machismo about how they are going to put down a charging dog with their carry weapon while out exercising or something similar. I'm willing to bet that most of the people on here couldn't take down a charging dog with their concealed handgun with any repeatability. Before you dismiss posture, control, and a stick or OC spray as useless think about it a bit more.

If you have time to take a bead on a dog with your carry piece between gasps, don't lie and tell me you jog with a full-size 1911 style 10mm with hi-Viz fiber optic sights and don't breathe hard while running, then that dog isn't charging you. I'm not saying you shouldn't defend yourself but get real about how you are going to actually do it. Hitting a dog running full speed with a handgun while you are winded is a lot different than shooting at a man sized target at 15 yards on Sunday morning with your target gun. Can it be done, sure, but is it the best method

Ooh! Ooh! I'm so excited! I've never been called "machismo" before!!!!

Seriously, you bring up a good point. The traditional stance you use plinking holes in paper at the range may not be the best idea here. Can some of y'all who do point shooting comment on the usefulness of that technique in this situation (hso, where are you?)

I don't get winded walking my dogs, so that issue doesn't arise for me, but the question of how to shoot most effectively is a good one.


Springmom

 

[Carl N. Brown]

THREAD HEAD: Why I will not hesitate to shoot a charging dog
STORY: Two people in Livingston County were killed in separate attacks by a pack of dogs Thursday

There is a disconnect here. I do know though that free roaming dogs in packs tend to behave worse than single dogs. I was at Browns Mountain Cemetary once and did not leave my car due to a pack of about ten free roaming dogs. Years later, at the same spot, I climbed in the back of my son's truck when a large labrador retriever came down the road. The dog turned out to be friendly, the owners came down the road a minute or two later (the dog had run ahead) and there was no problem. The same dog if roaming free with a pack might have been a problem. Yes, a single dog can attack and rabid animals have been a problem here. If I was endangered by a dog, I would have no problem with shooting to protect life or limb, but I would not want to allow myself to be boxed in by fear into a "shoot first" mindset.

The keypoint is in the thread head: "charging" which indicates attacking (but
the lab on Browns Mountain road was 'charging' but just turned out to be overly friendly). One could facetious ("How do you stop a charging dog? {pause} Revoke his credit cards!") but this is a serious subject.

 

[pax]

...the question of how to shoot most effectively is a good one.

And so it is.

Where on the animal's body should you aim?

pax