Why I will not hesitate to shoot a charging dog

[RevolverMan567]

"pit Bulls"

Can I just say that I have 2 pit bulls and have had many more, in the past and never once has one of my dogs broken out, murdered, raped, pillaged etc. And in response to an earlier comment about how pit bull owners stepping in and defending the dogs and saying its all about how you train them i would just like to say that condemning an entire breed of dogs because of incidents involving "pit bulls" (which are very rarely actually of the breed but instead just large headed muts lumped in) is just as irresponsible as saying that guns are the real reason for crime in America. I would hope we are all smart enough at this point in our fight for RKBA to not make false correlations such as this. Because in fact is is all in how the animal is trained, or the lack there of. Cats, raccoons, and even mice or ferrets can be aggressive but they are just not strong enough to inflict serious bodily harm. Being large and strong does not make an animal dangerous, being uncared for and undisciplined makes an animal dangerous, much like humans. so lets keep our ignorance to at least an acceptable level in the future and not make the same statements that ignorant people are trying to use against us

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Dogs are property. Guns are property

.
False anology!

You could as easily say "Garbage cans are property. Houses are property." and from that assume people can live in garbage cans.

The fundamental point is, guns do not run loose. Guns do not tear off down the street chasing the paperboy or a jogger. Guns do not roam through the woods and fields by themselves, attacking sheep and other livestock.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Dogs are property. Guns are property

.
False anology!

You could as easily say "Garbage cans are property. Houses are property." and from that assume people can live in garbage cans.

The fundamental point is, guns do not run loose. Guns do not tear off down the street chasing the paperboy or a jogger. Guns do not roam through the woods and fields by themselves, attacking sheep and other livestock.

 

[RevolverMan567]

agreed

but also not every dog that runs down the street, chases people, or killes lives stock and plots to take over the world in bloody carnage is a "pit Bull" either they just seem to be lumped in.


take this test see if you could find them and positively identify the pit bull:

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

should be easy right?

 

[JWarren]

I am honestly shocked at some of the discussions on this thread. I think our love for our pups has a way of preventing objective thought.


TOO many dog owners actually believe that others are as comfortable around dogs as they are. I've seen it dozens of times where a person will not restrain their dog around people who are obviously very uncomfortable around the animal. Some even find some kind of morbid humor with it.

TOO many people seem to want to place a responsibility on society as a whole for developing the tools to interact with strange dogs. While it is good to know how to interact with animals, other people are in no way responsible for developing the skills to address YOUR dog.

TOO many people seem to have unrealistic expectations of what a person would carry on a daily basis. I don't carry bear spray on my utility belt on a daily basis. I carry a .45. I don't "train" to handle pepper spray as a self defense option. I train to draw my weapon and fire it. If I am being attacked, I DEPEND on the training I've developed, and the instincts I've trained. I am not going to fumble around for the "appropriate" tool for the job while calculating the weight of the dog, the rate of charge, the wind direction, the phase of the moon, and the marginal tax rate. No. I am going to do as I have trained and use a tool I KNOW will end the threat to me or my loved ones. You see... you don't have to WONDER if a .45ACP will stop the threat. You KNOW it will. If I had time to wonder about overkill, I would have time to avoid the threat.

TOO many people are attempting to complicate the issue by placing the charging dog in different environments such as you going to another person's house and their dog come charging. While that is a valid consideration, I believe the assumption is that this charging scenerio would be occuring in public such as a road or sidewalk. Without a doubt, being charged on someone's property by their dog adds a different element to the equtation. This has happened to me one time in my life-- and it was intentional.

I went to a friend's house when I was in high school. They have a chain link fence around their home. The friend's father yelled from inside the garage for me to just come in the gate. Well, I did. He then "sic'ed" his chow/something mix on me FOR ENTERTAINMENT. I managed to get over the fence before the dog got to me. The friend's father came out laughing at how fast I ran and how I got over the fence.

Well, even at 15 I knew how wrong that is. That was the last time I went over there, and I DID tell the friend's father that I hope he enjoyed the joke and that I hope he understands that if I EVER see his dog on my property (his land bordered ours) he should get a shovel.


I never got the chance. A few months later, the dog got out of the fence and attacked a 5 year old boy-- causing over 80 stitches. The child's father (once the child was treated) went to the man's home and shot the dog.


On a note that hasn't been discussed greatly on this thread, wandering dogs DO pose threats other than attacks. Another neighbor of mine had an Australian Shepherd and a Rottie. On one of their "walkabouts," they got into a local farmers pasture and the Aussie started doing what they do-- herding. The Aussie herded 38 goats into a corner where the Rottie systematically killed each and every one of them. Since they were out of goats, they went into the farmers other field and proceeded to start attacking his cattle.

The farmer got there before they killed the cow whose neck the rottie was biting. Fortunately, the farmer keeps a 30-30 lever action in this jeep. The cows were OK. Police were called to make police reports and photograph the carnage and the position of the dog's bodies. The dog owner was sued and had to pay for the cost of the 38 goats.


I won't even get into dog hunters throwing hunting dogs out on the edge of your property and letting them run through your property while trailing deer. Nothing quite gives you that relaxed feeling as does sitting in your stand watching a few Does and then a pack of 7-9 blue tick hounds come through and chase them. Sadly, the dogs don't understand property lines, and have no understanding of how much of a jack@ss their owner is.

I get one more season of this, and I will start my collar collection.




-- John

 

[Cosmoline]

Nobody is trying to complicate the issue. The issue IS complicated. The context of where you see the dog and its mannerism are absolutely criticial in determining the proper response.

While it is good to know how to interact with animals, other people are in no way responsible for developing the skills to address YOUR dog.

Again, this is probably true but so what? You're talking to a wall. What people should or should not do or expect is not the issue. The issue is a tactical and legal one. Under what circumstances can you and should you throw down and fire on a dog? You can complain about how bad the owners are until you're blue in the face, but that and a dollar will get you very little. The fact is if you're out and about much in this world you'll get charged by hunds under different circumstances. Some might require a deadly response. In other circumstances you'd be taking a heck of a chance. There can be no blanket rules about how to respond, as much as you wish there were.

As far as dogs chasing game, up here that's legal grounds for killing them on the spot. I've refrained from doing so for tactical reasons, as discussed above. But if they're doing it on your turf that's another matter. I'd suggest checking your laws and F&G department. You might be able to do some good and get rid of them.

 

[marley]

As I said before If you are shooting be aware of your back stop If someone was shooting at my dog and I was behind yes they the person is a deadly threat to me and that is what I said before.

In henrico county there dogs can be off lead on public land but under verbal control. I can do that from about 100 yards. That might be true elsewhere as well. Dogs are property but if you point or fire in my direction even if you are shooting at the dog I assume you are trying to hit me.



You know most of these people who want to shoot any dog tend to live out west must be something different going on out there.

I am sort of surprised we don't hear about this on the news everynight if it is such a problem.

patrick

 

[JWarren]

Cosmo,

No arguements here. Frankly, this is a valuable statement that bears repeating:

The fact is if you're out and about much in this world you'll get charged by hunds under different circumstances. Some might require a deadly response. In other circumstances you'd be taking a heck of a chance. There can be no blanket rules about how to respond, as much as you wish there were.

The reality is that every individual situation should really be judged on its own merit. No two will ever be exactly the same.

For instance....

In one situation where I am being attacked I may well not hesitate to draw and fire-- based largely on my surroundings. If there are no residences or such in my line, I would probably do so.

However... put that EXACT same situation in another location-- say in a residential neighborhood where there is NO real safe line of fire, well I would resolve myself to the fact that I'll be fighting this dog by hand and joyfully looking forward to the stitches and rabies shots in my near future.


Earlier in this thread, I mentioned that I had been attacked by a chow-chow that put 30 puncture wounds in my legs and put me on crutches for a week or so. Well, that was on of those situations where I could not shoot- and did not shoot. I fought the dog with my bare hands and eventually punched the dog until it quit attacking.

That serves me right for trying to break up a dog fight. Yes... the attacking chow was MY dog. It was killing another dog we had in a dominance challenge. It almost succeeded in killing my dad's old Fiest.

Semi-funny ending. As I said, the young Chow almost killed the old Fiest. The Fiest had a swollen mouth, needed a few stitches, and was walking stiff for a week or so. Yet the Chow didn't win...

Let this be a lesson of age and wisdom over youth and strength...

You see, the Fiest only got one good bite in. He punctured the Chow's scrotum, causing an infection. The Chow had to be put on an antibiotic drip. This scrotum swelled up to the size of a grapefruit. The Chow did survive, but the infection steralized him.

He never challeged the Fiest for dominance again.


-- John

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Again a human being is different. DOGS ARE PROPERTY!

True enough, but also irrelevant. The problem isn't the dogs. The problem is what people do when you decide to enforce a leash law by shooting their dogs.

Wrong. The immediate problem is the dog if it is attacking you. Do you honestly think I care what pet owners that allow vicious dogs to run free think?

Think of it this way. A car is just property too. But I would think long and hard before capping off rounds from my .44 into a car's engine block even if that car was a threat.

I shouldn't have to tell you that this is not analogous as a car doesn't attack people on it's own. Dogs do. I also shouldn't have to tell you that if a car is a legitimate threat, it is under human control and the engine block should be the last place to direct your fire. I would suggest the windshield.

Geez, you'd think everyone is writing that they will kill the next dog they see, no matter what.

 

[Tokugawa]

AT LAST AN ANSWER! Finally , Jwarren has cleared up the confusion- if a dog attacks, bite it in the scrotum! This, however poses a perplexing question as to how to defend onesself from a female dog. Hmmm....http://www.thehighroad.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

[JohnMcD348]

The way I was trained by a few dog handlers was that if a dog were to charge you, the best defense is more of a knife than a pistol or stick. Offer your weak hand and have knife in strong positon. After the dog latches on, shove the knife into the neck and cut down, severing the major muscle groups in the neck/jaw and the throat and vasculature. "HOPEFULLY", if there is a pack of dogs, the others will then begin to attack the weak dog you just defeated. Yes, you will get some damage, but you are more likely to survive the attack IN THEORY. This was told to me by a USMC dog handler/trainer years ago.
Now before everyone jumps on me, I love dogs. The hundreds of dollars per year I spend on vet bills for our family dog who sleeps between me and the wife can attest to that. I think people who do not treat animals well should, themselves be taken out treated the same. We are their guardians and protectors and are responsible for them, whether they are intended as companions, protectors, or food. But if it comes down to my life or the life of my loved ones and the life of another animal, that animal will die or I will give my life trying in the protection of my family. Be they 4 legged or 2.

 

[Richmond]

moment of weakness

I always say I will avoid reading any dog threads on THR, then I give in and read one, but I say, I won't get drawn into it and actually post. . . .

I really think "dog shooting" threads should go the way of the politics discussions - lets omit them and improve THR to a great extent. I know, I know, just don't read the threads.

Actually, my thoughts are that dogs, much like guns, are frequently sensationalized by the media - they certainly do love to sell fear to us, don't they?

THE TEASER:
“NEXT UP: DOGBITES! THE BONE-CRUSHING POWER OF DOGS. Experts warn that even friendly dogs can bite, sometimes without provocation. And they’re everywhere. A new Government study estimates as many as 300 dogs per square mile, with the numbers climbing each year. How many backyards in your neighborhood are hiding a deadly menace? We’ll tell you what experts say – when we come back.

THE STORY:
A shocking bite from the dog everyone described as “a little angel” leaves one area woman nursing her wounds. Dog-jaw experts say that even a small dog can produce as much as 500 pounds of biting force, and given the rate at which dogs breed, it’s just a matter of time before more people are placed at risk. A former employee with the Department of Health says hospitals are unprepared for a major increase in dogbites, and officials are closely monitoring this situation that could pose a deadly threat to our nation’s neighborhoods. Disturbing questions have been raised about loopholes in the licensing system, and observers point out that dogs who bite can receive licenses and be released into neighborhoods.

THE WRAP UP:
It’s no surprise that many local residents are living in fear: “You never know when somebody is walking their dog right behind you. We’re scared.” Officials say links between the recent dogbite and one that occurred in the tiny town of Ames, Iowa have not been confirmed, but either way, it’s a nightmare few will ever forget. And one that many fear will not be over in the morning.”

The whole article on Media Fear, by Gavin de Becker, can be found here:

https://www.gavindebecker.com/media_fear_tactics.cfm

Well, fear and anger. A generalized anger towards owners who don't do what they should, or what someone thinks they should, seems to blur into rationalizing and justifying an incredibly serious action with very real and life altering consequences - using your personal firearm.

A couple of things:

Full Disclosure
I am a lifelong critter "owner". Currently live with two labradors, my daily training partners, and two cats (or one cat and a very short bear). I chose labs because I know a lot about dog attacks (see below) and wanted dogs with good dispositions. I socialized the dogs carefully with kids, including mobs of kids at my karate dojo. My dogs are on leash when I am in public. I hike and run them in a local wilderness park/trail system that is "off leash". I train them running sprints and the like on my own property.

More Disclosure
Before somebody starts wailing about how I love dogs and therefore cannot think rationally, I know a lot about dog attacks that I wish I did not. Early in my career, I helped represent a family whose toddler was killed by a wolf hybrid. I have pictures in my head after two decades of what it looks like when a dog kills and partially consumes a toddler, so no lectures from the dog shooting coalition. I have represented a number of other people, mostly kids, in some serious dog maulings. I have seen and experienced enough to know of the horrors of dog attacks.

Free Legal Advice
You are lucky - my fees in serious felonies are the most money most people will ever spend without receiving a deed to real property. Unless they buy a Bentley. Here it is - if you plan to do something dumb with a firearm, don't post about it on the internet. If you have ever done something of questionable judgment with a firearm, don't post about it on the internet.

I've had one or two get lippy when requested to get thier animals on a leash (they don't pick up the poop, either) and my response has been 'after I deal with your dog, I'll deal with you -'). Funny how size (I'm 6'3', 250) and/or a visible sidearm influnences attitude . . .

Marvelous advertisement for responsible firearms use. If you keep this up I can represent you when you get charged - stupid behavior like this rings the bell at the firm all the time. I can hire local counsel. I hope you qualify for a second mortgage and no Bentley for you. Oh, did I mention that the smart prosecutors and civil attorneys now look for identities you post under and will have their eager youngsters digging up all the belligerent stuff you posted in the past?

And I don't mean to single out just one person - there is more foolish braggadocio in this thread than I find in the waiting room on Monday mornings. And damned little discussion related to firearms. If any of you are ever involved in a negligent or SD shooting, any and all the stuff you have posted may come up. Think about it.

Firearms Advice
I have been legally carrying daily for close to 20 years. Every day when I get ready to head out the door I hope that the gun stays in the holster all day. I'm not looking for reasons, 2 legged or 4 legged, to pull it.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Dogs are a seriously big problem. Definitely reflects on the lack of understanding of the owner. They just get the dog. They don't study the breed first, problems come later. Some breeds are willing escape artist. Some yokels get too many and can't seem to understand why they have behaviorial problems. Understanding that dog you have is the first thing you do. That animal is not a human. That dog thinks you are a dog and will rank you according to a pack. Dominant dogs will dominate you if you are weak willed.
Dogs are to be controlled and it is the responsibility of the owner. There is a fine line between domestication (controlled) and instinct. Dogs will switch over to what they are. You cannot breed out instinct.
Dogs are property. Guns are property. You read between the lines. An aggressive dog will lock his eyes onto yours and bare his teeth, hair standing up on his back. He will either charge you or circle you looking for your weak side, most likely your weak side. Like I said to diffuse the situation MOST dogs will in fact understand the command GO HOME. That dog 90% of the time will at least back off and go away. You called his bluff if he was circling you.
You don't shoot first and ask questions later untill you run out of options.

 

[woodybrighton]

own a dog smallish cross breed
but it has the capability to be dangerous so its either in the house on a lead or under verbal control my dog my fault.
many years ago in the army put two dogs down that were worrying sheep. The
Sub human owner actually thought it was funny to get his dogs to chase sheep in a kinder more gentle world I'd have been allowed to put him down too
as was our discussion was took place at 10 foot I told him to contact the green jackets battalion HQ (not my battalion I'm dim but not that dim
)

 

[Picknlittle]

The following has been in our local news for the past few days. This article is from today's paper.

ANIMAL CONTROL
Owner relinquishes pit bulls, is arrested
Female dog euthanized, male to be put down after quarantine
By NATE KARLIN
The Leaf-Chronicle

Two pit bull terriers running amok in St. Bethlehem since Friday were found and relinquished Tuesday to Montgomery County Animal Control.

The male and female dogs were found by the owner Monday evening on Needmore Road near Whitfield.

ADVERTISEMENT

She turned the dogs over the next day to Animal Control Director David Selby.

The female pit bull was euthanized, while the male dog, which bit a Joy Drive man in the leg and killed a Dalmatian, will be quarantined for 10 days before also being euthanized.

Selby said the male probably attacked the Dalmatian and the man in order to protect his female companion, who was in heat.

The owner, though, did not go unpunished.

Tiffany Demitrice Taylor, 24, who gave a 14 Love St. address, was arrested Monday on eight counts of dogs running at large and one count of providing a false report — she denied owning the dogs — to Clarksville Police Officer William King.

According to arrest warrants, Taylor's pit bulls were reported Friday to have been barking at dogs that were fenced in and tried to attack a child on Love Street.

The dogs then moved to Joy Drive, where police received a call on Saturday and one on Sunday. Taylor also was cited in connection with her dogs running at large Sunday on Welchwood.

Taylor's bond was set at $9,000 and she is set to appear in court Sept. 24.
Not the first offense

Selby was familiar with Taylor and the 3-year-old male white pit bull, named Buster.

Buster was confiscated by Animal Control last month and reclaimed by Taylor on Sept. 1, Selby said.

Taylor also relinquished a pit bull in 2005 after it bit a child in the face.

Selby said he was pleased Taylor decided to give up these dogs as well.

Selby said Taylor's backyard is fenced, but the dogs are able to get over it because of the way it's set up.

When an intact male dog is allowed to roam freely, Selby said, his natural instincts emerge. The dog will mark his territory and then proceed to challenge other dogs or people who threaten to invade his space.

"When he's out by himself, he does show the aggressiveness," Selby said of the loose pit bull.

Taylor has one more pit bull at her house, but Selby doesn't consider it to be a threat because it's chained outside.

According to animal control officials, Pit Bulls are more likely to become aggressive when loose, because they are actively claiming and defining territory, making them a threat to other dogs AND humans, especially children. This tendency by a male increases dramatically when with a female in heat.

This woman and her dogs have been here before. In the area where these dogs were loose are four day care centers and an elementary school. The dogs were found two miles away at yet another elementary school.

As much as I like critters, I have but one name for loose, Pit Bulls, and Rottweilers,......Heeeeeere target, target, target.

 

[woodybrighton]

pit bulls were on of the reasons most british police forces have binned 9mm carbines in favour of 5.56mm carbines.
we have the dangerous dog act banning pit bulls though its pretty vague what is actually a pit bull though

 

[Harley Quinn]

I had many a Staffordshire Bull Terrier for years, and bred them.

They were fierce to say the least. Proper control was always needed.
I have never had an accidental discharge with a firearm.

But some times my dogs would tear up another dog if it came onto my property. These dogs were loving and great beasts. But they were a handful.

Not something I would recommend for your average owner in a neighborhood of loose dogs and cats, for sure.

A fence sometimes would not contain, even high ones. I had a male that could climb chain link and tear it apart if a loose dog was on the other side. Happened a couple of times. To watch him go over that fence was something to behold, he would grab it with his teeth and pull up and dig in his feet and be over it so fast, it was beyond doubt one of the most athletic things you have seen.
Climbing trees was another thing that he could do unbelievable. one time chasing a cat through the rafters of my garage was another show of skill. Jumped up on the washing machine up, onto the refrigerator and up into the attic, cat did not stand a chance. "No mas"...

Dogs especially the types that have the personality of your more famous fighting breeds are truly a wonder to behold. Regarding "tenacity".

Pit bulls and Tenacious Guard Dogs is a book all should read

http://www.kateconnick.com/library/semencicpit.html

It will be a very wise investment before having one of them.

HQ

 

[JWarren]

Richmond,


POST-post edit:

While I DO agree with you that we must realize always that our words can often be used against us-- and we must be always be willing to defend our words, and actions, we must also realize that it is impossible to live in such a way that we are immune to liability. The best we can do is work to reduce our liability-- and I am thinking that was the crux of your post. In that, I agree with you.


I also understand that you are a legal professional, and we do appreciate your comments here. At the same time-- and I am being blatently honest-- your delivery leaves much to be desired. A friend of mine suggested that this post prior to this edit seemed to allow some of that "flavor" to influence my own "tone." I think that friend is probably right. That was not my intention.




A couple of things:

Full Disclosure
I am a lifelong critter "owner". Currently live with two labradors, my daily training partners, and two cats (or one cat and a very short bear). I chose labs because I know a lot about dog attacks (see below) and wanted dogs with good dispositions. I socialized the dogs carefully with kids, including mobs of kids at my karate dojo. My dogs are on leash when I am in public. I hike and run them in a local wilderness park/trail system that is "off leash". I train them running sprints and the like on my own property.

OK... that's fine. By your own admission, you run your dogs in a public place without them being on a lease. That's probably fine for you. But since I am assuming you are an attorney, you should know that you WILL be held liable if one of those well-mannered unleashed dogs attack someone. Period.

By posting this on the internet, you have now shown prior precedent to routinely having those dogs unleashed. You've shown that you are cognizant to dog attacks but have a belief that your dogs would not exude that behavior.

More Disclosure
Before somebody starts wailing about how I love dogs and therefore cannot think rationally, I know a lot about dog attacks that I wish I did not. Early in my career, I helped represent a family whose toddler was killed by a wolf hybrid. I have pictures in my head after two decades of what it looks like when a dog kills and partially consumes a toddler, so no lectures from the dog shooting coalition. I have represented a number of other people, mostly kids, in some serious dog maulings. I have seen and experienced enough to know of the horrors of dog attacks.

Then I seriously hope you are right about your dogs. I've seen a lab become aggressive before.

Free Legal Advice
You are lucky - my fees in serious felonies are the most money most people will ever spend without receiving a deed to real property. Unless they buy a Bentley. Here it is - if you plan to do something dumb with a firearm, don't post about it on the internet. If you have ever done something of questionable judgment with a firearm, don't post about it on the internet.

By the same token, I'd not post on the internet that I willingly and knowingly run my large breed dogs in a public place.

As an attorney, you know that ANYTHING can be brought into arguments to show negligence or liability.


Really no one cares as to what your fees are. I don't mean to sound brash but there are plenty of people here who charge different things for different services. There are plenty here qualified and intelligent that do not have a need to beat their chest as to how much they charge.

Quote:
I've had one or two get lippy when requested to get thier animals on a leash (they don't pick up the poop, either) and my response has been 'after I deal with your dog, I'll deal with you -'). Funny how size (I'm 6'3', 250) and/or a visible sidearm influnences attitude . . .

Marvelous advertisement for responsible firearms use. If you keep this up I can represent you when you get charged - stupid behavior like this rings the bell at the firm all the time. I can hire local counsel. I hope you qualify for a second mortgage and no Bentley for you. Oh, did I mention that the smart prosecutors and civil attorneys now look for identities you post under and will have their eager youngsters digging up all the belligerent stuff you posted in the past?

Seriously. I get this a lot from attorneys that I work with. OK. We get it. You probably make good money. Or you would like to. Or you would like for us to believe you do.

Well, so do the countless other attorneys here. And the Engineers. And the Consultants. I have reason to believe that the Investment Managers do OK as well.

And that means exactly squat.


Attorneys often see the world in terms of liability. Makes sense. That it the world they live in. Well, I don't see the world in terms of Return on Investment-- even though that is my world. Some things are beyond returns.

Just like some things are beyond a lawsuit. If we were to live our lives in such a manner where there could NEVER be anything introduced into evidence against us, we would all be mindless, personality-less drones. Sure something I write could be argued against me. And my attorneys could make arguements countering those. And they could counter those, and we could counter those... and it just goes on like that.


If the point of this was not to post damaging comments on the internet, fine. People should use their own judgement. People should be prepared to defend their comments if ever forced to.


If the point was that you make a lot of money and want to make sure we all understand this, well OK. We'll take your word for it. And it still doesn't matter. I may have been happy for you, but the arrogant tone just kinda killed any sincerity I would have had.

And I don't mean to single out just one person - there is more foolish braggadocio in this thread than I find in the waiting room on Monday mornings. And damned little discussion related to firearms. If any of you are ever involved in a negligent or SD shooting, any and all the stuff you have posted may come up. Think about it.

Anything CAN come up. Including character testimony from your neighbors who may or may not even like you. You live the best you can and be willing to defend your postion. But it is impossible to live your live in such a manner that you live in fear of the "what-ifs."

Firearms Advice
I have been legally carrying daily for close to 20 years. Every day when I get ready to head out the door I hope that the gun stays in the holster all day. I'm not looking for reasons, 2 legged or 4 legged, to pull it.

I don't see anyone LOOKING for reasons to do anything. I DO see people discussing things that could potentially occur and spend some time considering the best course of action. Frankly, I think some forethought on a number of issues is a good thing. Only an attorney would see bloodlust in this thread.




Cheers.


-- John

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The problem with people saying they allow their dogs to run off leash, and they're perfectly safe is that those people are actually performing an experiment. And if the experiment fails, some innocent person gets hurt.

They remind me of people who believe it's okay to drink and drive, and you should only be arrested if you have an accident. They put the public at risk.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

I think this statement will close out the opinions, if I see a Cane Caruso or any other big dog running full bore at me I will unload on it, or until it stops. End Point.

 

[Cosmoline]

That serves me right for trying to break up a dog fight. Yes... the attacking chow was MY dog. It was killing another dog we had in a dominance challenge. It almost succeeded in killing my dad's old Fiest.

Breaking up a dog fight can be a real challenge. And lord knows there are many studs who WILL fight if they possibly can. Sometimes they've been giving each other stink eye for years just waiting for the chance. The best method I've found is to come in from behind and grab the dog by the base of the tail and the scruff of the neck, then simply raise him up out of the fight while backing up. Hopefully someone can do likewise with the other dog, or if not just pick the dog that's winning. What you never want to do is put your hands between them.

I remember having to lift up Cohen the GSD like that with a Rottweiler still attached to his lip! But a torn up lip was nothing compared to the vet bills that would have racked up if they'd been allowed to keep going at it.

 

[Odd Job]

The first time I got a firearm was because of dogs. This was when my only transport was a bicycle.
I had a bad experience with an Afghan once. I was leaving my friend's house and was wheeling the bicycle a little way down the road before I mounted it, and the Afghan came out of a front yard (gate left open) and walked towards me. He wasn't growling, running, acting aggressively or anything like that. I didn't feel threatened at all and carried walking.
He walked around the bicycle and got a good bite just under my arse, through thick jeans. Then he just walked back into his yard, cool as a cucumber.
It was a bite with about 7 puncture marks arranged in an ellipse, almost like it was one of those machines that takes a core out of an apple. It bled and I had to have a tetanus shot, which I billed the dog owner for.
A few years after that, when I was old enough, I got a Baby Browning for pocket carry while cycling. It was all I could afford (second hand).
Dogs were the main thing I was worried about at that stage.
A few years later with the regime change and crime increase in SA I became more focused on two-legged dogs and upgraded to a car and a 9mm.

To shoot the dog: well this would be a tough one I reckon. He'd be hard to get while running, and he may not charge at all.
My rationale for having the gun was that I could at least halt an attack even if it meant I had to get a bite first. If he didn't let go or didn't move away, he would catch a contact shot. That's what I thought at the time and I haven't come up with a better tactic yet.

 

[Shane333]

I was recently subpeonaed to testify against a dog owner in my neighborhood. She had a half pitbull, half foxterrier mix. Yes, I know that it really was half pit. I know the owners of the dogs that bred this one.

This particular dog owner has a habit of leaving her dogs out front unsupervised and off any leash. Well, her pitbull mix made a beeline for my two little girls (ages 4 and 2) running full speed with its teeth bared and head down low and I only barely jumped in between the dog and my girls in time. The dog then squared off with me and continued advancing, teeth bared and growling. We were accross the street from the owner's house, so it wasn't like we were encroaching on their property.

I didn't want to have to draw and shoot, especially in my own neighborhood, but when the dog came within two feet of me I knew it was going to go for a bite, and began to draw...just as I noticed the owner's son come running to grab the dog. I quickly pushed the gun back into the holster and covered it. I tried to contact the family but they don't list their phone number and no neighbors have it. So I ended up filing a police report when I saw the dog out again two days later.

The week after I filed my report, two other neighbors filed police reports as well. The dog, neglected by its owner, was becoming steadily more aggressive towards all neighbors, especially the children.

In the end the dog was removed from the home and the owner received a fine.

I want to point out that I've known some very good dogs in my life, and 99% of problems I've had with dogs have been due to owners being irresponsible.

The main reason I got a CCL and carry is because of aggressive dogs that people leave outside their home. Had this dog gone for a bite, I would have fired.

 

[springmom]

And lord knows there are many studs who WILL fight if they possibly can. Sometimes they've been giving each other stink eye for years just waiting for the chance.

Are we talking two-legged types now? Oh, wait....

grab the dog by the base of the tail and the scruff of the neck, then simply raise him up out of the fight while backing up.

Particularly terriers. When we absolutely positively need to get Pippin to do something she doesn't want to do and do it NOW, one hand goes on her halter (makes a great handle) and the other on her little stubby terrier tail. Up she goes and you know, she never complains. They have been pulled out of rat holes and badger dens and such for hundreds of years by those tails. It is an ok thing to do.

But yeah, having a helper with the other dog is a definite advantage in this situation.

Springmom

 

[roo_ster]

I heard some loud barking and turned around to see the dog barking and charging my neighbor’s three year old son Patrick on his Big Wheel in his yard. The kid, who was afraid of dogs anyway, was petrified.

Dayum, that hits close to home, what with two toddlers at...home.

Good on you for dealing with the beast. I can't say that I would have been as restrained and let the dog live on.

There's a simple solution to this problem. If you're a dog owner, don't let your dog run loose.

If you do, whatever happens to your dog -- be it getting lost, run over, in a fight, or attacking a human being -- is your fault.

Quoted for truth. Also, one reason we have a hotwire running 6" off the ground along the perimeter of the fence.

I hit him in the head so hard that is sounded like a coconut. His legs buckled I pulled back and hit him again hoping to kill him. He just collapsed on the ground. (I can say it now) I hit him one more time. He just laid on the ground. I was hoping I had killed him. I wanted to hit him again (someone might be watching) so I let him lay there. Well the dog did not die but, that dog would run when he saw me from that point on.
It was a poor neighborhood, the people would say: We aint never seen dat dog afraid of no one, cep you. I would tell them: I have a way with dogs.

Good on ya. I have had to do similar things with dogs the get bitey. Sometimes a good azz-whoopin' is just what is called for. You were no longer threatened with injury & doggie ot to live on, sans a few brain cells. A happy ending.

Dogs are property but if you point or fire in my direction even if you are shooting at the dog I assume you are trying to hit me.

Not a wise assumption.

If your dog is being pretty obvious about its attack, your assumption would be foolish. Think about it: You'd really shoot at folks who were fighting for their lives against your dog? (Assuming they are not there on your property to steal/rape/murder/etc. you & yours. In that case, let Fido get his pound of flesh)

Might want to walk that one back a bit. For my own part, if one of my dogs was attacking someone out in public, I would do everything in my power to stop it, including putting my own dog down.

If you are too far away to tell if your dog is attacking or threatening you are being irresponsible and too far away. Can you read your dog's mannerisms at 100 yards? I'll admit I don't think I could read my dogs at that range, despite (corrected) 20/20 vision. I can tell if they go on point, if they are running, but not if they are all riled up & snarling or some such. Toss in a stiff breeze to mess with sound and 100 yards is a LONG ways for positive control of doggies.

If your dog is doing nice doggy things like sniffing around and minding its own business, yeah, I can understand the assumption. Some knucklehead taking shots at an obviously non-threating dog is sick pup in his own right.

I understand and practice the four rules:

1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

Numbers 2 & 4 are most pertinent in the circumstance you present.

If I were alone and your dog attacked me while you were in the line of fire, I would not be willing to cover you with my muzzle. I would likely go with my knife and hope for a kill before I got too ate up.

If my wife or kids were with me, so sorry, I value them more than any dog or dog owner. Really no good answers, but I would do the best I could. It is a trade-off: risk hitting a negligent dog owner or risk serious injury to wife or kids.

I would suggest a wise course of action would be to not force folks to make such ugly choices. It would be the neighborly thing to do.