Why is the .357 a "manstopper" but the slower 9mm an "overpenetrator"?

[GJgo]

As the title says. The 125gr .357 is a recognized "manstopper", rated right up there with the .45 auto. However, the .355 9mm, in say 115 or 124gr, is touted as an "overpenetrator" even though it is a slower round.

Thoughts? Ideas?

I've owned them all, and currettly carry a .45. I'm considering a BUG in 9mm or .357 sig and the curiosity bug got me..

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Usually when a bullet over penetrates it's due to it's failure to expand or the bullet is just too heavy.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

The overpenetration of the 9mm is mostly with pointy-nosed FMJ bullets. You rarely hear of this with JHP bullets, except for early 147-grain subsonic loads. A revolver bullet does not have to climb up a feed ramp to get into the chamber, so it can be made in any shape or configuration desired. And only the full power 125-grain loadings are significantly faster than 9mms. You will pay for this, especially in a lightweight and/or short barreled revolver, with thunderous blast and excessive recoil. Some magnums are downloaded (e.g., Remington Golden Saber; what I like to call "mild magnums) and are not much, if any, faster than 9mm.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

The .357 125gr SJHP is the perfect physics answer to stopping a human. It's a combination of speed, bullet design, and expansion.

The 9mm and 45 can also do well. However, the perfect storm is created by the .357 Mag.

 

[Larryect]

I am wondering what the SJ means in SJHP? Is it Semi-Jacketed?

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I am wondering what the SJ means in SJHP? Is it Semi-Jacketed?

Yes.

 

[GJgo]

I've also considered that the .357 sig may be less of an "overpenetrator" than the 9mm, because the extra velocity (in a good HP round) would assist in expansion.

(.357 sig in a carry piece isn't appreciably slower than .357 mag in a J frame snubby, IMO..)

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Simple...the higher velocity of the 125 grain 357 bullet causes much faster expansion, which in turn slows the bullet down faster. Make sense?

 

[Blueduck]

"Back in the day.." Ammo companies seemed to have problems perfecting designs that both expanded AND fed well in semi-autos.

357's bullets virtually always used in revolvers had no feeding issues to contend with so designers were free to work on making sure the bullet exapnded (or fragmented) without compromise. {Thin jacket, 1350 FPS, flat nose with exposed soft lead howllowpoint- bingo!- next project} Pretty simple. 9mm that had to feed reliably from dozens of manufactureres all with slightly different feed angles AND expand... not as easy. That's not to say every 125 grain 357 load expanded and stayed in the target in 1982 or that every 9mm overpenetrated, just became the reputation because of common results.

Bullet penetration is fun, speeding up a round may either increase or decrease it's penetration depending on the bullets construction and the base velocity range you started at. Best manufacturers all seem to have good loads now, but every one of them i still testing and tweaking trying to make better loads.

 

[GJgo]

Ok then, how about this- 125gr .357 mag, say around 1200fps out of a snubby, vs. a 124gr .357 Sig, say at basically the same velocity out of a carry semi-auto. Let's also say both rounds from the same manufacturer's line, such as Gold Dots, to keep it consistent.

 

[Blueduck]

Would still depend on bullet design, the 125 grain CCI Gold Dot, is not the same bullet (or even diameter .355/.357) as the 38/357 125 grain Gold Dot. Even minor differences in jacket contruction, core hardness, meplat, etc... are going to make things act different.

In fact I believe CCI even manufactures at least two different 125 Grain 38/357 Gold dots based on the exact type of velocity range they will be loading the round into.

It's all about bullet construction, does not matter if it's coming out of a revolver or auto (other than of course the feeding issue thats been diuscussed earlier). I would think form the results over the last ten years or so thats been pretty much licked. Good 9mm and 357 Sig loads out there, good 357 mag loads out there, bad loads for each are also available. Good ones fail to expand sometimes and overpentrate, bad ones sometimes hit just right and stay in. Just gotta do the research for what your wanting and play the odds

 

[Onmilo]

You guys might like this.
Chicago Transit Authority Police chose the .357 Sig cartridge because it was the ONLY semi automatic pistol cartridge that they tested that would reliably penetrate the seat backs on CTA trains.
9mm, .40 and .45 wouldn't do it.

The .357 Magnum came about because law enforcement officers of the 1930s wanted a cartridge that could be relied upon to crack the engine blocks of cars, punch through the windows and heavy steel doors, and defeat the body armor of the time.
The Metal Point full power .357 cartridge could do these things, the 9mm, .45 auto, and even the .38 Super could not be relied upon to reliably do this kind of work.
And remember, hollowpoint ammunition was not at all common at this time in gun history.

I like 9mm full metal jacket, because many many folks who like to play with guns also wear body armor and an FMJ will punch a deeper trough into this stuff and cause deeper blunt force trauma to the flesh beneath.
.357 Magnum is even better at this but who wants six shots when one can nail the target 15 or 17 times without reloading if need be?

Because America is so Litigeous, I think more is made of the overpenetration issue than really needs to be.

 

[Confederate]

The 9mm and 45 can also do well. However, the perfect storm is created by the .357 Mag.

The .357 Magnum came about because law enforcement officers of the 1930s wanted a cartridge that could be relied upon to crack the engine blocks of cars, punch through the windows and heavy steel doors, and defeat the body armor of the time.

The .38 RNL of that day looked impressive, but were fairly impotent. The .357 delighted the Highway Patrol because it was able to shred tires and punch through car doors and windows, even with short barrels.

The 125 JHP became an accidendal discovery. As Massad Ayoob notes, it doesn't really matter what brand it is, it works, and it works better than any specialty ammo they've been able to make.

The strange thing is, they can't seem to replicate the elements of this incredible ammo. Even the Sig .357, though close, doesn't quite equal it. And the .40 can't seem to replicate it, either.

It is a fabulous round.

 

[1911Tuner]

There's a velocity floor at which a projectile begins to take on a different set of dynamics in living tissue, in which it starts to create a large enough hydrostatic shock wave to damage tissue out of proportion to the bullet's path. Research has suggested that this occurs at about 1400 fps. Very much below that, and the effect of the shock wave falls below that of the bullet's. Go above that 1400 fps line, and things start to change.

The 125-grain .357 round is a good compromise between velocity and bullet mass/sectional density...and the ability of the bullet to both expand and retain enough of its mass to penetrate. WHile a 110-grain bullet could probably be driven to 1600 fps safely...it would probably disintegrate after striking even a light bone.

A 125-grain bullet from a revolver vs a 124-grain bullet at the same speed from an autopistol would be on even ground, assuming equal expansion characteristics.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I've always THOUGHT that there was a connection between the 1300-1400 fps terminal ballistics and the build up of sound waves traveling through tissue...but its just a theory.

 

[BlindJustice]

I think a lot of it is that the .357 Mag. is a Made in USA cartridge, and the
9MM parabellum is European and didn't become popular in the USA until
post WWII and surplus 9mms were imported.

 

[Jason_G]

9mm? Over-penetrator?





Not hardly...
Maybe FMJ would be a bit different, but assuming SD/HD, most folks use JHP's.


Jason

 

[1911Tuner]

My 2 coppers' worth on over-penetration is that it's overblown. When we talk of over-penetration, we're automatically assuming that we won't miss.

The risk of shooting through the bad guy and hitting somebody else downrange is less of a concern to me as missing the bad guy altogether. At that point, it won't matter much how much ballistic gelatin my ammunition punched through in a labratory test.

 

[TAB]

Its very simple, "stoping power" is not about bullet weight, muzzle velocity, muzzle energy and any other commonly talked about factors...

its all about energy transfer. Its basic physics( at the high school level), but some people tend to set that aside for cool/technical sounding words/ phrases. The more energy that it transfered by the projectile the better the projectile will be as a "man stoper". Thats every thing from reshaping the bullet, reshaping the body, generating heat and etc...

 

[1911 guy]

I'm a .45acp fanboy, but...

The overpenetration problem is mostly an FMJ issue. The revolver round never had an FMJ bullet, the autopistol didn't have exposed lead until recently. The 9mm has performed fairly well after the advent and adoption of JHP ammunition.

The picture above lists all JHP bullets and very similar depths of penetration. This shows more about advances in bullet design than about caliber.

 

[tinygnat219]

First thing that hits my mind is that the 125 Grain load for the .357 is a JHP round that expands when it hits, delivering its energy to the target. 9MM earned its reputation as being overpenetrating due to the FMJ pointy bullets.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

As the title says. The 125gr .357 is a recognized "manstopper", rated right up there with the .45 auto. However, the .355 9mm, in say 115 or 124gr, is touted as an "overpenetrator" even though it is a slower round.

Thoughts? Ideas?

The .357 is just as much of an overpenatrator as the 9mm is.

 

[DougDubya]

ClickClick - where do you get .357 Magnum overpenetration? And kindly do not cite Chuck Taylor's photographs of two .38 Special rounds he misidentified as .357 Magnums, or any other of Taylor's rampant campaign of disinformation.

 

[papajack]

because 1911/.45 fans have a vendetta against the 9mm?

 

[BlindJustice]

I have a S&W 686P .357 Mag.w/4" Bbl. - nice balance but it would be
better had I gotten a 6" Bbl because of the
muzzle/flast&flash with (WW) 125 gr. JHPs
My shooting partner in the next lane said it
looked like a lightning bolt out of the muzzle.
This isn't a problem with my .45s, 625 or 1911
and my SD/HD loads are 185 gr. Golden Sabre
pushing 1,050 FPS.

ALso,m Speer on their website where they sell
Gold DOts they don't differentiate between .38/.357
bullets. I buy the .38 SPcl +P 125 gr. rated at a nom.
1,000 FPS use it in my MOdel 60. The new loading
from CCI/SPeer for snubbies with reduced muzzle blast
is the 135 gr. GD JHP tested at 875fps out of 1 7/8" Bbl.
915 fps out of 2 1/4" BBl. then with 3" Bbl. 975 FPS
Pretty much barrel length sensitive as is .357 Mag with slow
burning mag. powder. I looked at Federal ammo and
their published ballistics, Did you know the 125 gr. bullets
out of a .357 mag. lose about 200 FPS by 100 yards? The
old .45 ACP 230 grain starting at a lowly 900 fps has only
slowed down to 820 or so by 100 yards. Bullet weight
= momentum, which is why they say to go up to 158 or 180
gr. for medium game with the .357 mag. or if you're busting
engine blocks.

Thread is going far afield....but

That said, I'm shopping for a 9MM
because of the cost of ammo these days
and reduced recoil for range sessions.
probably go with 147 gr. sub sonic and Gold
Dots for SD/HD