DENALI
member
IMHO the good 9mm loads are .357 magnums.........
Why is the .357 a "manstopper" but the slower 9mm an "overpenetrator"?
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Buttermilk
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Back in the day, the .357 was a very big over penetrator. The caliber was looked down on because of it. Of course we were issued 158 cartridges as carry ammo and it was the big thing. BUT,,,,,,,, there were many instances of over penetration. An example I remeber hearing of was a Houston P.D. officer that was down on the ground in a fight and about to lose his life and he pulled his .357 and shot the BG and the bullet exited the bad guy and went over a block further and killed a lady sitting at her desk in one of those glass buildings.
Advances in bullet design and testing, brought about the 125 grain bullets after a medical examiner in Dallas made a remark that the most effective round was a 125 grain .357 mag bullet.
The .41 magnum, championed by Bill Jordan in his book No Second Place Winner, was an effort to stop the over penetration of the .357 and blend with the knock down power of the .45 acp. Glock later came up with the .40 S&W which has a lot of similar ballistics of the .41 in a semi auto design.
Advances in bullet design and testing, brought about the 125 grain bullets after a medical examiner in Dallas made a remark that the most effective round was a 125 grain .357 mag bullet.
The .41 magnum, championed by Bill Jordan in his book No Second Place Winner, was an effort to stop the over penetration of the .357 and blend with the knock down power of the .45 acp. Glock later came up with the .40 S&W which has a lot of similar ballistics of the .41 in a semi auto design.
DougDubya
Member
GLOCK designed the .40 SMITH AND WESSON?
I agree about 158-grain solids penetrating like crazy, however.
I agree about 158-grain solids penetrating like crazy, however.
Cosmoline
Member
Who's saying the 9x19 is an "overpenetrator"? I've never heard that, unless it's in reference to FMJ ball loads nobody would use for defense.
Don't spend so much time worrying about overpentration anyway. Worry about stopping the attack with accurate, powerful delivery.
I'm EXTREMELY skeptical about such stories. Not because of you, but because back in the day when the .357 was in use by LEO's there was an enormous amount of agitprop against it by the antis. This is why many departments forbade the use of the eeevil "magnum" and restricted officers to the .38 Special. Even if they were carrying .357 size frame revolvers. This led to the .38 +p+, among other things.
Does Jordon cite overpenetration as a reason for the .41 Mag? I'm wondering about this since the .41 will certainly outpenetrate most .357's, even with the light "police" load for the .41 Mag.
Don't spend so much time worrying about overpentration anyway. Worry about stopping the attack with accurate, powerful delivery.
I'm EXTREMELY skeptical about such stories. Not because of you, but because back in the day when the .357 was in use by LEO's there was an enormous amount of agitprop against it by the antis. This is why many departments forbade the use of the eeevil "magnum" and restricted officers to the .38 Special. Even if they were carrying .357 size frame revolvers. This led to the .38 +p+, among other things.
Does Jordon cite overpenetration as a reason for the .41 Mag? I'm wondering about this since the .41 will certainly outpenetrate most .357's, even with the light "police" load for the .41 Mag.
shooter429
Member
Well, its not as simple as that
But comparing the traditional 124 grain 9mm ball at 1150 fps against a 125 grain .357 sjhp @1450 is not an apples to apples comparison. You are likely to get very good expansion and, therefore, much less penetration from a .357 as described compared to the standard 9mm ball.
Apples to apples 124 Gr. jhp in 9mm +p+ versus a 125 Gr. SJHP in .357 will still give the 9 a bit more penetration due to the ogave, but not nearly as much as with ball. The 9mm just cannot use bullets that are as "open" nor can it generate velocity necessary to reliably expand the bullets, especially when an intermediate barrier is struck
Apples to apples
.357 will outpenetrate the 9mm 147 with my 180 grain handloads by more than 33%
It just depends on the guns, the loads and the targets.
Choose the right ammo for the right job and caliber becomes a little less important.
Shooter429
But comparing the traditional 124 grain 9mm ball at 1150 fps against a 125 grain .357 sjhp @1450 is not an apples to apples comparison. You are likely to get very good expansion and, therefore, much less penetration from a .357 as described compared to the standard 9mm ball.
Apples to apples 124 Gr. jhp in 9mm +p+ versus a 125 Gr. SJHP in .357 will still give the 9 a bit more penetration due to the ogave, but not nearly as much as with ball. The 9mm just cannot use bullets that are as "open" nor can it generate velocity necessary to reliably expand the bullets, especially when an intermediate barrier is struck
Apples to apples
.357 will outpenetrate the 9mm 147 with my 180 grain handloads by more than 33%
It just depends on the guns, the loads and the targets.
Choose the right ammo for the right job and caliber becomes a little less important.
Shooter429
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
A side note for ballistic students who aren't aware of it..
Penetration depth in a given medium is largely dependent on the bullet's sectional density...or the ratio of its length to its diameter...for a given bullet weight. A good example is two bullets of identical shape, construction and geometry...one a 150-grain .30 caliber bullet, and the other a 150-grain 7mm/.280 caliber. The 7mm bullet will have the greater sectional density, and will outpenetrate the .30 with identical velocities in an identical medium.
Other things that affect it will be the frontal area of an expanded bullet and the makeup of the target that it strikes. i.e. A given bullet at a given impact velocity and with a given sectional density will penetrate differently between two men of identical weight...but different compositions. The couch potato with a high body fat index will be penetrated to a greater degree than the man of identical weight...but who spent the last 5 years pumping iron in a prison yard and is solid muscle.
So...there's more to it than bullet weight and velocity, but the point is largely moot if our shot misses the target. If we miss...any bullet is a loose cannon.
Penetration depth in a given medium is largely dependent on the bullet's sectional density...or the ratio of its length to its diameter...for a given bullet weight. A good example is two bullets of identical shape, construction and geometry...one a 150-grain .30 caliber bullet, and the other a 150-grain 7mm/.280 caliber. The 7mm bullet will have the greater sectional density, and will outpenetrate the .30 with identical velocities in an identical medium.
Other things that affect it will be the frontal area of an expanded bullet and the makeup of the target that it strikes. i.e. A given bullet at a given impact velocity and with a given sectional density will penetrate differently between two men of identical weight...but different compositions. The couch potato with a high body fat index will be penetrated to a greater degree than the man of identical weight...but who spent the last 5 years pumping iron in a prison yard and is solid muscle.
So...there's more to it than bullet weight and velocity, but the point is largely moot if our shot misses the target. If we miss...any bullet is a loose cannon.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
Reading hundreds upon hundreds of after action reports, a couple dozen or so books an handgun usage and attending a class or three. I can go dig through the stack of material if you want referances.
It's a simple matter really. An round that is capable of penatrating light cover and wound a person beyond it is capable of going through the person without the cover.
Mad Magyar
Member
Excellent point....Also the idea of differences in body builds (fat vs lean + bone, induced adrenalin, etc): the variables are endless....Reading much of the Thompson LaGarde report (100 yrs old) where testing caliber effectiveness while shooting various live & dead animals makes you think long & hard about caliber, placement, and one's desire to live in any shooting incident...
Gun Slinger
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Eloquently put, ClickClick.
Conversely, any ammunition that won't make it through light cover or a couple of sheets of drywall/sheetrock will also have a decreased ability to get through to the vitals within the human anatomy and is a questionable selection for the purpose of SD/CCW.
GS
Phil DeGraves
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"its all about energy transfer."
Don't buy into this type of thinking. "Stopping Power" (of which there is no such thing, at least in handgun ballistics) is a function of bullet placement, not performance. Look at the FBI/Miami shootout. Platt takes a 9mm round to the chest, 100% energy transfer, and ends up shooting all the agents AFTER receiving this wound. Morales shoots Platt in the head with a .38 and the bullet goes through expending it's energy into the car seat.
So much for the "energy transfer" theory of stopping power.
The only thing that matters is what tissue gets destroyed on the target. This is achieved through a large wound channel, adequate penetration and most importantly, BULLET PLACEMENT.
Don't buy into this type of thinking. "Stopping Power" (of which there is no such thing, at least in handgun ballistics) is a function of bullet placement, not performance. Look at the FBI/Miami shootout. Platt takes a 9mm round to the chest, 100% energy transfer, and ends up shooting all the agents AFTER receiving this wound. Morales shoots Platt in the head with a .38 and the bullet goes through expending it's energy into the car seat.
So much for the "energy transfer" theory of stopping power.
The only thing that matters is what tissue gets destroyed on the target. This is achieved through a large wound channel, adequate penetration and most importantly, BULLET PLACEMENT.
Harley Quinn
Member
The 357 Sig is a good one for the perfect round as being mentioned about the 357 Mag. It is very accurate also something about that config and a 6 inch barrel "Nice".
HQ
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