Why is the Beretta 92FS so underated?

[George Hill]

So how do you figure your "Life Expectancy" of the Beretta and your other guns?
Is the "Life" over when the locking block on the 92FS breaks and you have to replace it?
Or do you reset your "Life" counter when you replace your safety lever, beaver tail, and slide release on your 1911 one at a time or do you have to do them all at once?
I could go on and on, and into details... but I think you get the point. At what point does the "life expectancy" end? If the barrel gets shot out... I can just order another one and PRESTO - I have a fresh barrel and all the sudden my accuracy is back to normal if not better than before. I can have a smith replace the safety block and levers... have it refinished. New triggers, extractors, ejectors, mag releases... I can replace any part that needs replacing.
I know cats that do this to the 1911 after jsut a box of ammo. Does this mean the 1911 is a 50 round gun?
This milage measurement doesn't take into account the guns actual useage and environment and type of loads fired. It doesn't take into account the owner/user's gun-hygiene, frequency of cleaning and lubing, type of cleaners/lube used, or method of storage or fit/finish/materials of holster... Way too many factors that will effect the service life of a weapon.
"Life Expectancy" is completely moot. No matter how good or bad your math was.

Besides, lets be honest. ALL of us here will probably move on to another handgun after 5 years or less anyway... the gun of todays topic will be either sold off or sitting in a gunsafe well oilled and just waiting for another trip to the range.

 

[bountyhunter]

I don't know who the questions are directed to, but I can answer some of them:

"So how do you figure your "Life Expectancy" of the Beretta and your other guns?"

That criteria is defined by the user. Most people think it is the point where an item can not be repaired safely or the expense of repair exceeds the worth of the item.

"Is the "Life" over when the locking block on the 92FS breaks and you have to replace it?"

NO. That is a two minute fix which can be done by anyone who can take the slide off their gun.

"Or do you reset your "Life" counter when you replace your safety lever, beaver tail, and slide release on your 1911 one at a time or do you have to do them all at once? "

The "life counter" starts at zero and keeps counting throughout the service life of the product. Repairs or maintenance do not stop it.

"At what point does the "life expectancy" end?"

When the item no longer gives service and repair is impossible or too expensive to be justified.

"Does this mean the 1911 is a 50 round gun?"

NO. I have never heard anybody claim that.

"This milage measurement doesn't take into account the guns actual useage and environment and type of loads fired. It doesn't take into account the owner/user's gun-hygiene, frequency of cleaning and lubing, type of cleaners/lube used, or method of storage or fit/finish/materials of holster... Way too many factors that will effect the service life of a weapon. "

For service weapon like the M9, the expected operating environments, humidity levels, and temp ranges are well defined and spelled out in various mil standard specs (I used to have to design to MIL-STD 810D). The item must perform satisfactorily accounting for all factors encountered in field usage.

""Life Expectancy" is completely moot. No matter how good or bad your math was."

For a service pistol, that statement could not be farther from the truth. Expected operating life is critical as is operational reliability.

"ALL of us here will probably move on to another handgun after 5 years or less anyway... "

Not me, I just keep on accumulating. I never sell a gun unless it's a dog and won't shoot straight.

 

[bountyhunter]

On the subject of life span: my wife is in the Navy and quals the M9 every so often. You will find range guns with well over 100,000 rounds still firing accurately with the originl barrel and slide.

 

[clange]

I really like my 92, never shot a 1911 though. I actually like how the safety is set up. In my hand its the perfect location for a simple flip forward. Putting it on safe (the way most of you say the way it should go off safe) takes a bit more work. The grip size is perfect for me. Thing looks beautiful too. My only complaint of it would be its bigger then it needs to be overall, but its not exactly designed to be a CCW is it.

I'm not a certified gun nut but it works for me.

 

[Handy]

Beretta states the FRAME is good for 50,000 rounds. You can't repair a cracked alloy frame.

 

[Boats]

Beretta states the FRAME is good for 50,000 rounds. You can't repair a cracked alloy frame.

There should be an "at least" in there ahead of that number. YMMV, and many of these pistols are documented as going way past 50,000 rounds. It is a 9mm after all and not a lightweight Colt Officer's Model.

Nor has there been an epidemic, even on the internet, of horror stories about broken Beretta 92 frames.

 

[XavierBreath]

Regarding the Desert/Baby Eagle in .40S&W................
It's the pistol put out by Israeli Military Industries, ModelbMR9400.
On the slide it says Desert Eagle. On the instruction book printed by Magnum Research it says Baby Eagle, probably to differentiate it from their Desert Eagle in the big calibers. Not sure about that, but it seems to be the case. Looking at the IMI site http://www.imi-israel.com/ it appears to the the 941F also known as a Jericho.

Whether Baby Eagle, Desert Eagle or Jericho, it's a fine sidearm, and doesn't seem to get the credit it deserves, probably because of the Baby designation.

 

[Croyance]

So, S.B. 1719, the replies here are consistant with what I have seen on TFL. Some who don't like the Beretta 92 and more who have positive responses. So where is the under-rated part?

 

[Silver Bullet]

It's got my highest rating: it's the pistol by my bedside.

It's the most reliable gun I know of: never jams or fails to feed.

Very durable (not the most durable; that distinction probably belongs to some (or every !) Glock).

Everything about it is butter-smooth. When I rack the slide on any other pistol, I always wonder what's wrong with it.

Good accuracy, and high capacity (there's a plus side to the big grip).

One of only two pistols to pass the military tests back in the '80s.

I feel the decocker/safety make it a very safe gun, in the sense that you're less likely to have a negligent discharge because you have to do more things wrong to go bang.

 

[Wilhelm]

I have owned 2 Glocks and hated both of them. I have owned at least 4 different 1911's their ok. I absolutley love my 92FS. I have small hands but have no problem getting to the mag release. The only problem I have had was once I decocked it and forgot to take the safetey off. It took only once for that to happen in a competition for that mistake to never happen again and I think the gun only had 200rds through it at the time. The 92FS is the gun for me, I love everything about it and have never looked back since my purchase. Guns are like cars no one gun is every gonna be the ends all be all.



Wilhelm

 

[Erik]

The Beretta 92fs is a fine 9mm pistol, which after you factor in BOTH the over and under rating comes out about where it should be: on most folks list of top 10 list of service pistols currently available.

Now, should it or should it be on top of said list? That's a whole 'nuther argument, of course.

Anyway, I like them, but don;t love them, mainly because of the ergonomics due in no small part to the relatively large grip size.

DA/SA? Big deal, though not my preference.

Frame mounted saety/decocker? Bigger deal, but that's a preference thing.

Open top? I could care less.

Double stack mags? I could care even less than less.

Fixed front sight? Fixed recently, I believe. Or, fixable, if not.

9mm? So what? Though I prefer my pistols chambered for cartridges which begin with '4.'

Full sized? Hefted a full size HK USP. beloved by so many, lately? Talk about relatively large for no apparent reason. Anyway, another "so what comment."

Anyway... Their fine service pistols with relatively large grips, which I believe I said a while ago, so I'll stop at that.

 

[Navy joe]

Let's see,

1. It's bigger than a Hi-power
2. Trigger is suckier than a Hi-power
3. Hmmm, It's not a Hi-power???

Having several BHPs and an excellent Glock 34 I can't justify the need for a 92.

Silly safety, brickonomics, DA, too many parts.

Since nobody has said it, the maintenance requirements for military M-9s specify a magnetic particle inspection of the locking block on a 4,000 round interval. Since I don't usually have access to a mag bench, I'd rather not deal with that.

Other observations come from the local range. At the mecca of gun mistreatment(rental counter) I have never seen all six of their rental Berettas ready to go at once, one is always TU. The S&W revolvers, glocks and Colt AR are constantly ready for more abuse and little cleaning, all the malfunctions I see come from error on the part of the renter.

 

[George Hill]

I've not heard of one documented case of a 92F or FS that has suffered from a break in the frame.

Yet I have personally seen several (including my own) SIG P220 handguns with cracks in the frames. These cracks showed up between 50 to 60,000 rounds.
Does this mean a SIG is only a 50,000 round gun too?
You NEVER hear people badmouthing SIGs because of this.
I think this life expectancy issue is moot, retarded, and totally lame.

 

[Handy]

George, this is a thread about the + and - of the Beretta. Most everyone agrees that it's a good enough gun, so we are only really talking fine distinctions. Frame life is a fine distinction, but a distinction.

And yes, I question the long term strength of EVEN the Sig. But all the SEALs I knew in Norfolk reported their 226s lasting well into the 100,000s with NATO ammo. But alloy frames are a trade off. I have mostly steel.

If you think it is unfit to post opinions in an opinion thread, that's weird. We could all just refuse to discuss any possible negatives on any well established weapon, since they are always relatively minor. Or we could just read and take the various minutia for what they are, instead of denouncing them.

I'm sure your personal, and VERY special Beretta will last as long as you want.

 

[CAP]

I've got a ss 92FS and a 475th anniversary Comemorative M9 NIB, and STILL want a compact ss version for daily wear. Elite? Brigadier?
I LOVE mine.

But then again I love my P228 and my G26 too.

 

[Glockster35]

I have seen several 92FS (military) with cracked frames. In one inspection we found 17 out of 42 guns had cracks.

Beretta's aren't immune to it.

 

[Island Beretta]

Hey Guys:

Keep it simple..

Superceded only by the High Power which has been around since 1935, the 92FS is the most widely issued military pistol of today. It has beaten SIG in every trial worldwide!! It has several clones that are also military issue.. In addition it is the handgun of choice for special forces worldwide..

If you do not believe me do your homework.

Now that these guys have done all the hard work for you and I.. the debate is redundant!! Shoot the 92fs and have fun..

CURRENTLY THE 92FS IS THE KING OF THE HILL.. MAYBE IN A FEW YEARS IT MAY BE DETHRONED BUT IT IS ONE HECK OF A PISTOL


Oh, by the way, did you know the US AMU have accurized M9s shooting sub-1 inch groups (0.8 inch to be exact) at 50 yds. They were never able to surpass that with any accurised 1911s.

 

[Handy]

You should check into what the AMU did to get the gun to shoot like that. They could have built a gun from scratch with that much labor.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

In my OPINION, the M9 is a good but not great gun.

--It's generally quite reliable.
--It's accurate enough for service use, and can be made more so.
--Because it's the current US military sidearm, and is used by many PDs, standard cap mags are easily available at reasonable (for 2003) prices.
--Due to its size and weight for a gun in 9mmP, it's easy to shoot if your hands can get around the grips.
--Speaking of which, it's really large for a 9mmP handgun, even one developed before the fad for compact 9s.
--Due to its size and the placement of the controls on the slide, ergonomics suck.

However, if I had to carry a 9mmP handgun to war, I'd prefer my Browning High Power Practical, with a SIG P228 (AKA the M-11) as my second choice.

YMMV, of course.

 

[eviltravis]

The 92fs

I have a 92fs centurion (full frame, shorter slide and barrel). I love the thing. It fills my hand just right. I actually like the grip size better than my Glocks, and my p99 walther. I have about 5 or 6 thousand rounds through the thing with no problems. I think it's a swell gun. I'd kind of like to get a stainless one someday, but then there are a lot of other things I have to get first. The Beretta gets my vote.

 

[dsk]

There's not much I can add that hasn't already been said. However, I think a large part of the passing Beretta 92 fad has been the mag-cap ban. Who wants such a large, fat gun with only ten rounds of 9mm? As a 15-shot 9mm pistol the Beretta is a decent, though not spectacular handgun. Once neutered it's about as state-of-the-art as a Tokarev. In other words it'll still kill a bad guy, but there are now that many more pistols out there that are more ergonomic, size-efficient, durable, and powerful.

I'd say the 92 Elite is about the only version that's still market-competitive. For just about anything else that can be done with a 9mm, give me a Glock 19, Hi-Power, or smaller SIG.

 

[Island Beretta]

Handy,

Given all that I said is this the only thing you could refute?.. why refute, why not just accept the truth.

Let me repeat, The Beretta 92FS is the most widely issued military pistol since the BHP and has beaten Sig in every military trial worldwide. It is the handgun of choice for Special Forces worldwide. As I said all the hard work has been done for us and that includes importantly debugging the gun, chief of which is the locking block redesign and the enlarged slide stop. Glock and Sig are still being debugged..

Berettas are designed to go straight from the factory to the battlefield without cleaning or any armorer tuning and function reliably in the heat of battle. Few if any handguns can boast that. Their quality assurance program is unsurpassed.

I am familiar with what was done to increase the accuracy potential of the M9..Are you????

In any case it was a lot less work than needed on the 1911s mostly in fact because no reliability work was needed for the M9. For the M9, the focus was on stabilising the barrel lockup.

 

[Handy]

Island,

What's the problem? Your comments about the widespread use of the design could have been quoted from me last week:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7203

I think it is a good, reliable, huge and not particularly durable gun design. In essence, I don't have any strong feeling about it. Read my first post in this thread.

I am somewhat aware of the AMUs work, and I believe it involved milling and replacing a large bit of the M9 frame with custom made steel parts. "Stablizing the lockup." The M9 only locks at the back of the barrel (the front of the slide is only there for the recoil spring. That's why the P-38 looks different.) So "ultimate" accuracy is a little more challenging than with a 1911 where the barrel is wedged front and back. The Beretta locking block doesn't even settle until the round is fired and the barrel is pulled forward.

I believe the only thing I had to say negatively about the 92 was that the design wasn't built to last and that it was too big. All these points were also made and supported by other posters. Find another scapegoat.

Why is the 92 only chambered in 9 and .40 but the 8000 series goes to .45? Couldn't they make a locking block gun in .45, or did the recoil kill all the prototypes.

Personally, I think anything but delayed blowback is kind of crude, but I have some recoil guns anyway.

 

[George Hill]

Notice that Taurus takes the same design as the 92FS, and does chamber it in .45acp. Also notice that Taurus doesn't market a Couger... but Beretta does. If you want a .45 from Beretta, Beretta wants you to buy the Couger.
It's about the math, not about the machine.

 

[Handy]

George, you know not what you say. The Taurus .45(s) is a modified Browning lock.

NO ONE makes a .45 with a locking block.



But thanks for the input.