The FBI didn't drop the 10mm because of the cartridge. The S&W Model 1076 pistol they were using just wasn't holding up at that time.
Why isn't 10mm more popular?
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It's a little more complex than that. There were some "teething" problems with the initial run of the 1076 (because of changes the FBI wanted to the basic S&W design--not because of the calibre). The 1076 and the Federal 190-grain JHP at 1090 fps was (and still is) a good package. I think the size/weight was more the problem (though getting started on the wrong foot didn't help) when it came to the FBI. The P228 which replaced the 1076 better met their needs (not to mention the 10mm was the wrong answer to the question).
jc2: "It's hard to say. Though the FBI did have a brief flirtation with the 10mm, as a calibre however, it really has been DOA when it came to LE. It just was never able to establish itself in that role. The .40 S&W was definitely at the right place at the right time."
jc2,
Not wanting to start any kind of flame, but you're just wrong on this. The .40 S&W came into existence because the FBI specified the downloaded 10mm ammunition-this is indisputable. Winchester & S&W realized that the FBI specs were easily attainable in a shorter case, which would then fit into a smaller pistol and thus, the .40 S&W. The 10mm WAS the FBI caliber; other agencies were researching & testing to make the change along with them (don't have the numbers, but I know there were a few who did make the change early on). And I didn't state that there would never have been a .40 S&W, I stated it was likely there wouldn't have been. There were other attempts at 40 or so calibers for law enforcement that never even got a serious consideration.
Also, the history of the .41 Magnum was with law enforcement in mind-it was never intended by the early supporters, such as Elmer Keith & Bill Jordan, to be a Magnum round, but a minimum 40 caliber round, for police, on a medium framed revolver. When it debuted as a Magnum, and on a large frame, that pretty much tied both of its hands behind its back to start with.
IIRC, the .41 Action Express was only ever chambered in one pistol and was never a contender for anything. One of the major complaints against it was its rebated rim. It's kind of funny how the rebated rim doesn't seem to bother anyone interested in the .50 GI. I think it's because it's in a 1911 platform.
Sam
jc2,
Not wanting to start any kind of flame, but you're just wrong on this. The .40 S&W came into existence because the FBI specified the downloaded 10mm ammunition-this is indisputable. Winchester & S&W realized that the FBI specs were easily attainable in a shorter case, which would then fit into a smaller pistol and thus, the .40 S&W. The 10mm WAS the FBI caliber; other agencies were researching & testing to make the change along with them (don't have the numbers, but I know there were a few who did make the change early on). And I didn't state that there would never have been a .40 S&W, I stated it was likely there wouldn't have been. There were other attempts at 40 or so calibers for law enforcement that never even got a serious consideration.
Also, the history of the .41 Magnum was with law enforcement in mind-it was never intended by the early supporters, such as Elmer Keith & Bill Jordan, to be a Magnum round, but a minimum 40 caliber round, for police, on a medium framed revolver. When it debuted as a Magnum, and on a large frame, that pretty much tied both of its hands behind its back to start with.
IIRC, the .41 Action Express was only ever chambered in one pistol and was never a contender for anything. One of the major complaints against it was its rebated rim. It's kind of funny how the rebated rim doesn't seem to bother anyone interested in the .50 GI. I think it's because it's in a 1911 platform.
Sam
The 10mm is probably the most misunderstood handgun round in the shooting world. It came in to existence at the behest of the FBI, S&W developed the 1076 specifically for it and then the gun had some reliability problems. Fortunately, the S&W 10XX series is now one of the most reliable platforms for the 10mm, it's just too bad the problems weren't worked out in time to save the popularity of the round and the guns.
I just do not understand those that say the recoil is severe, I really doubt whether they have actually shot the 10mm enough to judge it fairly. I have and shoot virtually every popular (and even some obscure) handgun caliber there is in a variety of guns, from mouse guns to hand cannons and can state emphatically that recoil from a 10mm is no worse than a 45, or even a +P 9mm in a light pistol.
Modern hollow points have pretty much solved any 'over-penetration' problems that may have existed 20 years ago. Depending on the design even a 9mm can over penetrate, as I believe the 147 gr. sub-sonics were accused of some years back.
The biggest problem with the 10mm at the FBI was the size of the gun, not the round. As women came into the bureau the grip size of the 1076 was not optimal for smaller hands and the 1076 is a bit heavy and large for a small-framed individual to wear comfortably. The original 10mm load for the FBI was not all that different, ballistically, than the 40S&W, so if recoil were a problem in a big heavy gun like the 1076, than certainly a .40 in a smaller gun would be equally taxing to the recoil sensitive.
As for platforms, the 10mm can be found in 1911's from Kimber and Dan Wesson, CZ clones at EAA, Glocks, and many, many discontinued models from Colt and S&W.
I just do not understand those that say the recoil is severe, I really doubt whether they have actually shot the 10mm enough to judge it fairly. I have and shoot virtually every popular (and even some obscure) handgun caliber there is in a variety of guns, from mouse guns to hand cannons and can state emphatically that recoil from a 10mm is no worse than a 45, or even a +P 9mm in a light pistol.
Modern hollow points have pretty much solved any 'over-penetration' problems that may have existed 20 years ago. Depending on the design even a 9mm can over penetrate, as I believe the 147 gr. sub-sonics were accused of some years back.
The biggest problem with the 10mm at the FBI was the size of the gun, not the round. As women came into the bureau the grip size of the 1076 was not optimal for smaller hands and the 1076 is a bit heavy and large for a small-framed individual to wear comfortably. The original 10mm load for the FBI was not all that different, ballistically, than the 40S&W, so if recoil were a problem in a big heavy gun like the 1076, than certainly a .40 in a smaller gun would be equally taxing to the recoil sensitive.
As for platforms, the 10mm can be found in 1911's from Kimber and Dan Wesson, CZ clones at EAA, Glocks, and many, many discontinued models from Colt and S&W.
SHOOT1SAM -
When it comes to the .41 Magnum, what Remington and S&W delivered was not what was envisioned (though the "police load" for the .41 Magnum was close everybody wanted "magnum load"). What they were really looking for was revolver equivalent of the a .40 S&W. When LE begin a large-scale switch to the 9x19, the search continued for that "intermediate load." They got it right the second time (for autoloaders). It's hard to say what the .41AE would have done, or what other calibres would have developed if the .40 S&W hadn't come along.
FireBreather01 -
The 10mm did NOT "come in to existence at the behest of the FBI." It was an existing calibre when the FBI adopted it.
I'm not saying that the .40 S&W, in particular, wasn't a direct result of the 10mm. What I am saying is that a similar calibre would have probably came into existence anyway even if the FBI hadn't adopted the 10mm. Given the development history of most handgun calibre some bright handloader or engineer would have figured out we can trim just a little off a 10mm case and make a round that will "fit" between the .36s and the .45s. Remember, the FBI adopted the 10mm as a compromise between the 9x19 and .45 ACP--and loaded it accordingly. There was in that time (and earlier--witness the .41 Magnum) a desire for an intermediate calibre (between the .36 and the .45). The FBI got the specifics right (190-grains @ 1090 fps) and S&W got the cartridge right. Would have happened anyway? Who knows? It may have sped the process up, but I believe it would have probably happened anyway. You evidently believe not. Anyway, despite the FBI's brief flirtation with the 10mm, it was and is DOA with law enforcement, and that hasn't helped its popularity.
When it comes to the .41 Magnum, what Remington and S&W delivered was not what was envisioned (though the "police load" for the .41 Magnum was close everybody wanted "magnum load"). What they were really looking for was revolver equivalent of the a .40 S&W. When LE begin a large-scale switch to the 9x19, the search continued for that "intermediate load." They got it right the second time (for autoloaders). It's hard to say what the .41AE would have done, or what other calibres would have developed if the .40 S&W hadn't come along.
FireBreather01 -
The 10mm did NOT "come in to existence at the behest of the FBI." It was an existing calibre when the FBI adopted it.
Come on tell the truth,Affirmative Action killed the 10mm. The pistols were too big and full powder 10mm ammo kicked too much for women and the girly-men that law enforement was forced to hire due to Affirmative Action. Once the physical size requirements for law enforcement officers were done away with by the courts the 10mm was dead.
I'm sorry, but the 10mm was created in the 1970s for a modified CZ-75 named the Bren-Ten. The original company went belly up and Colt took over using the cartridge by building the Delta. It wasn't until the late 1980s that the FBI became interested in the cartridge.
It might not be the most popular cartridge, but it has caught my attention. When funds allow, I would like to pick up a Glock 20.
Lennyjoe
Member
Well, the Bren Ten wasn't created in the 1970's, it wasn't a modified CZ-75 although that was/is a current urban myth and, as a matter of fact, the prototype wasn't originally chambered in 10mm.
Bruce
Bruce
The issue of the 10mm being dropped because of agents not being able to handle the recoil is 100% untrue. In fact, the pistol/load combo that was adopted after the 10mm develops more recoil energy (Glock/.40S&W duty combo). The FBI did NOT adopt a full-power load. Field agents complaining about recoil is an internet myth. Full-power ammo was tested, but did not pass due to less-than-stellar performance (inconsistent pressures, gelatin performance, etc.). The adopted load, as mentioned earlier in this thread, was the Federal 190gr. bonded JHP at 1050-1090fps from the 1076.
Here is a quote from David DiFabio addressing this very issue. This is from a thread on Glock Talk...
quote:
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Originally posted by MeatGrinder
You have to consider the FBIs concern for recoil. They dropped the 10 because of it. Even if the 10(or 40 Magnum, heh heh), is a better round, they will not adopt it cuz some agents don't like the kick.
Hence, going to a lesser caliber.
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David DiFabio:
Absolutely 100% BS- Internet Old Wives Tale. The recoil of the 10mm pistol was not considered a factor at any point.
Point of fact: The S&W 1076 10mm pistol when fired with the 190gr Federal XM1003A which was the issue loading generates 4% less physical recoil than the Glock G22 issue pistol when fired with the ATK/Speer 53970 165gr Gold Dot ammo which is the current issue.
Here is a quote from David DiFabio addressing this very issue. This is from a thread on Glock Talk...
quote:
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Originally posted by MeatGrinder
You have to consider the FBIs concern for recoil. They dropped the 10 because of it. Even if the 10(or 40 Magnum, heh heh), is a better round, they will not adopt it cuz some agents don't like the kick.
Hence, going to a lesser caliber.
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David DiFabio:
Absolutely 100% BS- Internet Old Wives Tale. The recoil of the 10mm pistol was not considered a factor at any point.
Point of fact: The S&W 1076 10mm pistol when fired with the 190gr Federal XM1003A which was the issue loading generates 4% less physical recoil than the Glock G22 issue pistol when fired with the ATK/Speer 53970 165gr Gold Dot ammo which is the current issue.
Hope this helps the misinformed ...
The FBI did not adopt a "full-power" 10mm load for use by field agents.
A substantial reason for this decision, articulated by someone actually in a position to know why and writing about it before the heady days of instant errornet nonsense, was stated to be "heavy recoil and muzzle blast."
As John C. Hall (former Chief of the Firearms Training Unit at the FBI Academy) explained it:
"Samples of commercially available 10mm ammunition were acquired and preliminarily evaluated as to suitability for law enforcement use. The high chamber pressures generated by commercial loadings, with the resultant heavy recoil and muzzle blast, tended to offset the otherwise excellent performance of the round."
[ Translated for the historically myopic: the "heavy recoil & muzzle blast" of commercial full-power 10mm loads - at that time, the still-available Norma 170gn JHP and the still-relatively hot Winchester 175gn STHP - made it hard for the skinny-wristed accountants and Dana Scully-types to qualify - which led, in one case, to a claim of "sexist firearms training." ]
Agent Hall continues:
"Therefore the FBI FTU decided to create a new loading for the 10mm, one with velocities comparable to those of the competing 9mm and .45 acp cartridges. A 180gn hollow point bullet was acquired and handloaded to a velocity of 950 feet per second. This loading not only matched the velocities of the other two cartridges, but it also dramatically reduced recoil and muzzle blast. *** Subsequently, factory loaded 10mm ammuntion was acquired and built to the desired specifications, which actually met or surpassed the performance of the handloaded test ammunition."
[
Translated: rather than invest the time and money into training new recruits to shoot and qualify with 10mm ammo loaded at or near full-power, they down-loaded it to the point where its energy and velocity levels, and handling characteristics, were more comparable to the 9mm and .45. This 180gn factory load @ 950 fps, the one Hall refers to, was thereafter known as the "FBI-Lite" 10mm. 
Geez, where's Sonny Crockett when you need him? ]
Federal's 190gn bonded 10mm JHP was a different load, slightly heavier and slightly hotter (1050 fps) than the FBI-Lite load, and was developed later. It was also more popular with those senior agents that stuck with the S&W 1076.
Source for the quotes above:
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/10mmpist.html
(Quoted material appears under the section, "The Competing Calibers").
The FBI did not adopt a "full-power" 10mm load for use by field agents.
A substantial reason for this decision, articulated by someone actually in a position to know why and writing about it before the heady days of instant errornet nonsense, was stated to be "heavy recoil and muzzle blast."
As John C. Hall (former Chief of the Firearms Training Unit at the FBI Academy) explained it:
"Samples of commercially available 10mm ammunition were acquired and preliminarily evaluated as to suitability for law enforcement use. The high chamber pressures generated by commercial loadings, with the resultant heavy recoil and muzzle blast, tended to offset the otherwise excellent performance of the round."
[ Translated for the historically myopic: the "heavy recoil & muzzle blast" of commercial full-power 10mm loads - at that time, the still-available Norma 170gn JHP and the still-relatively hot Winchester 175gn STHP - made it hard for the skinny-wristed accountants and Dana Scully-types to qualify - which led, in one case, to a claim of "sexist firearms training." ]
Agent Hall continues:
"Therefore the FBI FTU decided to create a new loading for the 10mm, one with velocities comparable to those of the competing 9mm and .45 acp cartridges. A 180gn hollow point bullet was acquired and handloaded to a velocity of 950 feet per second. This loading not only matched the velocities of the other two cartridges, but it also dramatically reduced recoil and muzzle blast. *** Subsequently, factory loaded 10mm ammuntion was acquired and built to the desired specifications, which actually met or surpassed the performance of the handloaded test ammunition."
[
Translated: rather than invest the time and money into training new recruits to shoot and qualify with 10mm ammo loaded at or near full-power, they down-loaded it to the point where its energy and velocity levels, and handling characteristics, were more comparable to the 9mm and .45. This 180gn factory load @ 950 fps, the one Hall refers to, was thereafter known as the "FBI-Lite" 10mm. Geez, where's Sonny Crockett when you need him? ]Federal's 190gn bonded 10mm JHP was a different load, slightly heavier and slightly hotter (1050 fps) than the FBI-Lite load, and was developed later. It was also more popular with those senior agents that stuck with the S&W 1076.
Source for the quotes above:
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/10mmpist.html
(Quoted material appears under the section, "The Competing Calibers").
The 10mm tries to be a jack of all trades but its a master of none. It has too much recoil in its full power loads for general self defense and tactical use. Its power is overkill there and beyond the point of diminshing returns. As a woods gun its underpowered compared to magnum 5 and 6 guns in 44 mag and up. Its about as powerfull as a hot 357 mag load. Not something I would want to face and angry bear with. I believe people are seeing the 10mm for what it is and is not. As a result there are less and less 10mm sales every year.
Pat
Pat
If I may be so bold, I think by "excellent performance", Agent Hall meant it's external ballistic performance, not it's terminal performance. IIRC, the 170gr. Norma load exibited inconsistent performance with regards to expansion, penetration and pressure. So much so, that it was actually downloaded from it's original 1400fps velocity to around 1300-1350fps. The jacket of this bullet was very thick, which of course limited it's ability to consistently expand. The 175gr. Silvertip also, IIRC, failed FBI testing protocol for several reasons (I think it's bullet integrity, or lack thereof, was a big reason). Intermediate barrier performance was less than stellar with the Silvertip.
The testing Agent Hall refers to in his article seems to be of the actual adopted load, the 190gr. Federal JHP, which of course did very well in testing protocol. It is this load that ended up being the "best performing" load of all cartridges tested, not the full-power loads.
The testing Agent Hall refers to in his article seems to be of the actual adopted load, the 190gr. Federal JHP, which of course did very well in testing protocol. It is this load that ended up being the "best performing" load of all cartridges tested, not the full-power loads.
So they developed a round that performed just as well without the heavy recoil and muzzle blast. Sounds like a winner to me (and evidently a lot of other people).
If any of you guys aren't happy with your 10mm's, Lenny Joe and I will be more than happy to take them off of your hands. He's dying for a Glock 20. 
Sorry, my half-dozen or so 10mm handguns won't be going anywhere anytime soon. Thanks all the same.
I just don't pretend the 10mm is somthing it isn't.
I just don't pretend the 10mm is somthing it isn't.
Hey, I like my 1076 and the Federal 190-grain JHP. It seems like they were made for each other.
I'm just afraid my source for them has finally dried up.
I'm just afraid my source for them has finally dried up.
I see nothing at all wrong with a 10mm load that meets and exceeds all FBI testing protocol without resorting to "full-power" velocities. I think these loads give us the best of both worlds. We get robust, reliable and consistent expansion, sufficient penetration and consistent performance through intermediate barriers without having to deal with the recoil associated with full-power ammunition.
Now, if someone likes his ammo loaded to full-power, that's all well and good...so long as he isn't fooling himself into thinking that he needs full-power ammo to extract exceptable terminal performance from this cartridge. Thanks to the excellent advances in bullet technology, the ammo makers have given us bullets that do everything we need them to, that is, expand and penetrate both reliably and consistently, without having to drive them to high velocities. This is one of the major reasons why the 10mm's added velocity/recoil has come to be a detriment rather than an attribute to some shooters.
IMHO, the 10mm's increased case capacity becomes an advantage when it's used to push bullets of 200gr. and heavier. This is most appreciated when pushing these heavy bullets for use in hunting medium game. It is this area where the 10mm sees an appreciable advanage over the .40S&W.
My .02 cents.
Now, if someone likes his ammo loaded to full-power, that's all well and good...so long as he isn't fooling himself into thinking that he needs full-power ammo to extract exceptable terminal performance from this cartridge. Thanks to the excellent advances in bullet technology, the ammo makers have given us bullets that do everything we need them to, that is, expand and penetrate both reliably and consistently, without having to drive them to high velocities. This is one of the major reasons why the 10mm's added velocity/recoil has come to be a detriment rather than an attribute to some shooters.
IMHO, the 10mm's increased case capacity becomes an advantage when it's used to push bullets of 200gr. and heavier. This is most appreciated when pushing these heavy bullets for use in hunting medium game. It is this area where the 10mm sees an appreciable advanage over the .40S&W.
My .02 cents.
I wish some of the boutique ammo manufacturers (small specialty shops) would wise up and see it that way.
I already sold my 2 10mm's sorry guys. Took a loss on them too. I will just stick to my 1911's in 45 acp loaded with Ranger or HST or my Glock 17' and 26 loaded with Ranger T's
Pat
Pat
Lennyjoe
Member
10mm in the Glock 29 is the ticket for winter carry and outdoors. 10 rounds in the gun and a 15 round reload or 2 is perfect. I want 2 holes in any animal I shoot. The Cougers here are huge. Nothing else even comes close in such a portable package.
DoubleTap 10mm ballistics and gelatin
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"
DoubleTap 10mm ballistics and gelatin
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"
Because rappers don't talk about it........Not only is this the funniest reply I have read in weeks.....IT IS TRUE !!!!!!!
Those DT figures need to be taken with a very large grain of salt. Some of those figures are very definitely open to doubt.
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