Why the 10mm...??

[Black Snowman]

I can't believe no one has posted this link

http://www.10mmtalk.com/

 

[Iggy]

Fisherman66

Yup they do, under very controlled circumstances. Short range and head restrained.

I have done it with a .22, but unless you are very close and the nice critter holds very still it can be really ugly..

They also use a large falling hammer that hits them exactly in the right place with the head under restraint.

Many times I don't have that luxury.. They are out on the range and are injured, scared, or just dammed mad!!

Any gun will work if you hit them right... Hmmm?? Does that ring of shot placement???

 

[porterdog]

Small mention of the G29 in this thread; how is it in actual use? I'm attracted to the Shelby Cobra small car/big engine aspect

 

[Cosmoline]

How do you think the 10mm round would compare to .357, .45 acp, etc.. for Bears? IF it is similiar to .357 mag, then having a magazine with 15 rounds in it sounds like just the ticket I am looking for.

10mm is about the minimum for bear defense in a semi. It's a very underrated round IMHO, far better than the .45 ACP or 9x19 when you're dealing with a mix of two and four legged foes. I'd grab one in a heartbeat if I could find it for a reasonable price, but they go for a *mint* up here due to high demand and very limited supply.

I'd suggest with the right HP bullets the 10 would be a far, far more effective defensive round than the .45 ACP or .40. It has sufficient energy to really rip the flying bejesus out of a foe, leaving a nice big exit wound to boot.

 

[355sigfan]

I live in Alaska as well and I don't see a lot of people using it. In fact in my small town I can find 357 sig ammo but not 10mm.
Pat

 

[duncan]

The 45 can go as fast as 1250 with a lightweight 165 grain load if your into speed. Personally I like the 230 grain Ranger+p at 990. It has 500 footpounds for the energy freaks and it expands to .80 caliber and penetrates 14 inches. Not much not to like. Pat

The problem with that 165 round doing that kind of speed is that for some reason, low sectional density, it's never been known to have stopping power. The 40SW round in that weight with recent loadings has been much more successful.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yeah, but didn't you guys just get introduced to smokeless powder over there?

 

[MachIVshooter]

10mm is about the minimum for bear defense in a semi

As much as I adore my 10's, IMO there is only one autopistol round that qualifies for big bear defense-the .50AE. The way I see it, in Grizz country you need something with at least 1,500 FPE and 1 /2" blunt, heavy slug. Personally, I wouldn't trust any handgun to do my bidding against a 1,200 pound mass of hair, claws and teeth.

Of course, you can just run. You don't have to out run the bear-just be faster than the other guy.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Of course if you must use a pistol to protect yourself from a bear and you have a 10mm, you're not completely lost. You could just shoot your partner before you took off running

 

[VorpalSpork]

Deer, by and large, are similarly sized to human beings. So it stands to reason that a round deemed more appropriate for hunting them is more effective on humans as well. Or maybe the DOW is just stupid?

I'll vote for the DOW being stupid. I see this a lot with the .223 v .308 arguments also. Have you ever see someone go deer hunting with a pistol and shoot for slide lock? No, when you are hunting, you want to just shoot the animal once, and wait for it to die. Defensive situations are not like that, you don't care how much of the meat you destroy, and your target can't be stopped soon enough.

So why not 10mm? Because 9mm is enough. All the extra energy gets you is deeper penetration and more recoil. The 15” you get from a good 9mm round is going to be enough as long as you are not trying to shoot someone through thick/hard barriers. I'm not overly concerned about where the bullet goes after it goes through the target, but the extra recoil generated when shooting the now overpenetrating bullet, only slows down follow up shots.

I would say that the vast majority of things that the 9mm won't go through, the 10mm won't go through either. With faster follow up shots, and more lead moving down range, you have a better chance of hitting parts of your target that aren't behind cover. But if you are really looking for penetration, why stop at 10mm? Try 12.7mm.

10mm is fun to shoot, it's got more options when it comes to reloading, but I don't think it is ideal for defense.

 

[gunfan]

I'm telling you...

Loaded properly,the 10mm is the ballistic equal of the .41 Remington Magnum! Go to www.doubletapammo.com. and look at ALL of the 10mm offerings. (BTW, Mike McNett has updated the .45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum as well.) There is no way that you can tell me that this performance is only meaningful "on paper" I know good and well that the 10mm will perform well (with proper bullet placement.) This round is better than people realize.

You can run from a 400 ft-lb. Federal Hydra-Shok, to a 1600 fps, 767 fpe 135 grain Nosler JHP, as well as 1300 fps, 751 fpe, 200 grain loads. How much more versatile can you get?

P.S. Double Tap's, 135-grain Nosler loads penetrate 11" into 10% ordnance gelatin covered with 4 layers of denim and 2 layers of 100% cotton "t-shirt" material. (so much for overpenetration issues.)

Scott

 

[atomchaser]

I own and love both the 10mm and the 41 mag, but I don't consider them as ballistic equivalents when loaded to their full potential. Just compare the DT beartooth 200 gr @ 1300 fps with the grizzly cartridge 265 gr @1450 fps.

 

[MachIVshooter]

But if you are really looking for penetration, why stop at 10mm? Try 12.7mm.

Because I am not big enough to conceal my Desert Eagle .50 AE. But I have no doubt a 325 gr. Speer JHP @ 1534 FPS would do the trick.

If you prefer to carry a 9x19 for whatever reason, that is your business. I will continue to carry my 10mm because the damage demonstrated in my ballistic clay by a 180 gr. JHP @ 1,406 FPS was far superior to a 90 gr JHP @ 1638 FPS, 115 gr. JHP @ 1310, 124 gr. JHP @ 1231 or 147 gr. @ 1132.

The .45 ACP 185 Gr. JHP @ 1188 FPS was impressive, but still nowhere near the 10mm. The .357 mag. 110 gr. JHP's @ 1622 FPS were quite nasty, but do not give the desired penetration (minimum of 10") They had completely fragmented and no significant peice went farther than 8".

All testing was done with Speer Gold Dot's and using 5" guns (.357 was 4").

I later found the Remington 10mm 180 Gr. Gold Sabre's to be even more destructive, so that is what I carry now. Velocity from my EAA Witness Compact is 1342 FPS for 720 ft/lbs.

 

[gunfan]

Mach IV Shooter:

Thanks for posting the penetration statistics, Brother. I think that these tell the truth of the matter. I don't know how to break it to them, but the 10mm is "riding the curl" while the other 98% of the cartridges and loads are still trying to "catch a wave."

Scott

 

[VorpalSpork]

I was thinking of 12.7mm NATO, but I guess you could wuss out and go with the .50AE

Sure, 10mm is going to give you a larger temporary cavity, and in clay that will translate into a permanent cavity, but flesh is much more elastic than clay. You need the bullet to be moving at something like 2000+ fps to over stress tissue enough to cause damage with the temporary cavity. So with high velocity rifle bullets it's an issue, but with lower velocity pistol bullets temporary cavity isn't very relevant.

 

[Cosmoline]

With a proper bullet there is absolutely no question that the 10mm will do far more damage to a human torso than a 9x19's. Obviously, if the recoil of th 10 is too much for you, that's a good reason not to use it. But to claim the 9x19 is MORE EFFECTIVE is completely insane. It's like arguing a JHP .38 Special round will kill a man more effectively than a .44 Magnum JHP. Just nuts.

 

[Greybeard]

Quote: "Small mention of the G29 in this thread; how is it in actual use?"

After lots of research and thought, I ordered a Glock 29 a while back. Even had several Glock 20 mags for it before it arrived - and 5 different kinds of Double Tap ammo to test and chrono.

As others have said, LOTS of versatility with the 10mm. I got my 29 to carry as backup in hog huntin' country. But, as other have said, the simple physics of the hot 10mm loads (such as DT 200g XTPs) can often impede shot-to-shot recovery. As such, I got a Barsto .40 barrel for cheaper practice and usually carry it in the concrete jungles with .40 155g Gold Dots. Even then, for compactness (as far as "bricks" go), it's with the 10-round mag and a +0 pinkie extension.

 

[VorpalSpork]

But to claim the 9x19 is MORE EFFECTIVE is completely insane.

On a bullet for bullet basis, yes it's insane. I'm not arguing that. Forget the 9mm v 10mm thing for just a bit, and lets just look at .40 v 10mm, so that we are talking about the same bullet. The only difference is case size and velocity. What does the extra velocity get you? More energy, that will, most of the time, fly out the back side of the bad guy along with the bullet. Now if your bad guy happens to be a bad bear, or some other wild creature with an extra thick torso, maybe you can put that extra penetration to good use. If it's just a person, you don't get much benefit, but you do have to deal with more recoil, and that slows down follow up shots. A damage over time comparison, not bullet for bullet. If you only do a simple bullet for bullet, you are only looking at part of the lethality equation, and your comparison will always favors ridiculously powerful loadings.

Now, I like the 9mm because I can afford to shoot a lot more of it to practice, than I could .40, or just about anything else. With that, you are trading in more recoil for less, and bigger bullets for more that are smaller, with equal penetration depths, but that is really another topic entirely.

 

[Cosmoline]

I was talking about the 10. The 40 is, IMHO, a solution to a problem that didn't exist. I do agree that if you're going for a 40 you might as well get a 9x19 and save a little recoil. But the 10mm is in a different class entirely. It can be cranked up to levels that match a revolver magnum. There's no doubt in my mind that with the right bullet it will kill better than a 9x19 or a .40. In its original Norma loadings it exceeds even a hot .357 Magnum.

 

[VorpalSpork]

All that extra energy in a magnum revolver also goes right out the back of the human sized torso with the bullet.

 

[Cosmoline]

You're thinking hardcast rounds. I'm talking about HP bullets here. With a bullet to utilize it, the extra energy offers:

Faster expansion
A much larger cavity
More damage to anything in its path
A far larger exit wound

Unless you adhere to the notion that bullets kill through the mysterious "energy dump," you must admit they kill through CNS, resp. or cardio-vascular system damge, or a combination of all three. The more and bigger holes you make, the better. A man ain't no different from a pig in this respect. A bullet will kill them the same way. And nobody in their right mind goes hog hunting with a 9x19. Believe me there are goblins out there bigger than a wild boar and twice as mean.

 

[VorpalSpork]

Granted all other things being equal, the same bullet will expand a little faster, at higher velocity, but larger surface wounds aren't all that important, its the internal ones that count. So other than the first part of the wound channel where the 10mm opens up first, the rest of the cavity should be the same with a .40. Until you can get the bullet up over the threshold of velocity that will destroy flesh that has not been directly impacted by the bullet I don't see how it does you much good to be going faster, and 10mm pistol can't get a bullet going over that threshhold. I don't agree with the “energy dump” wound ballistics theory, but it sounds to me like thats what you are espousing!

Given the size of a hog, I would take a .40 just as soon as a 10mm, but if I know I'm going to be hunting dangerous animals, I'll bring a rifle.

 

[Cosmoline]

By your logic, an expanded .30 caliber rifle round would do no more damage than a .45 ACP, because the diameters of the expanded rounds are similar. Velocity clearly plays an important role in increasing tissue damage, as does the size of the bullet. The 10mm gives you more of both over the .40.

The FBI tests left no doubt that the 10 was superior to both the 9x19 and the .45 ACP. The problem with it was never that it didn't inflict tremendous damage, but that it recoiled too sharply and caused flinching.

 

[VorpalSpork]

Not so.

Until you can get the bullet up over the threshold of velocity that will destroy flesh that has not been directly impacted by the bullet I don't see how it does you much good to be going faster

That velocity is somewhere north of 2000 fps, but varies between different types of tissue. Most rifles cartridges do this easily, while it's nearly impossible to get a bullet going that fast out of a pistol.

 

[duncan]

I agree a 45-70 gov guide gun would be a nice hog firearm.

But you need the additional energy of 10mm over 40Sw to defeat the hog's very thinck skin and gristle.