Why the 10mm...??

[MTMilitiaman]

Comparing the 10mm Auto and the .40 S&W--given bullets of the same mass and construction--the 10mm Auto will shoot them at 150 to 300 fps faster. This extra velocity results in more violent expansion. A hollow point bullet will begin expanding faster and will continue to expand faster throughout penetration until it loses structural integrity and dissentigrates, stops in the body, or exits. In either case, the wound channel is going to be bigger in the case of the 10mm than in the .40 Smith and Wesson. Hollow points work on Newton's laws--one of which states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That means that the target in effect hits the bullet as hard as the bullet hits the target and thus the added energy works against the bullet aiding in expansion and deformation. It will either expand to a larger diameter or fragment regardless of whether or not it exits--physics says it has to. That additional velocity and energy gets puts to use regardless of whether or not it can damage tissue it doesn't touch. We don't have to argue about hydrodynamic impulse or whatever to agree that the laws of physics still apply to terminal ballistics regardless of whether or not you're a fan of the 10mm Auto.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Personally, I don't carry one. But, in all the IF ONLY ONE GUN threads, I always said my Colt Delta Elite. The 10 can do it all. And it's my preference for the wilds of the northern U.P.

My next purchase just might be a Glock 20. Always wanted one and now that my carry needs are satisfied and the mags are back to normal, why not?

 

[VorpalSpork]

My experience has been that when hollow point bullets expand they increase the radius of the bullet by no more than the depth of the hollow in the point. So while the 10mm will expand faster, and cause a larger wound channel at first, once you reach terminal expansion, the bullet shapes will be equal, and so will the wound channel from that point on. To me, that is not worth the extra recoil, but I'm sure others think that it is.

Other than this, I don't see how, and no one has explained how, the additional energy, resulting from the same bullet traveling at a higher velocity, gets put to good use. You have the same amount of energy pointed back at you when you fire a shot, and it doesn't hurt you, so it's not a very good argument to say that the energy goes somewhere, so it must do some damage. I submit to you that most of it goes right out the back of the target with the bullet, and the rest of it causes a larger shock wave that pushes tissue around, but still fails to do it fast enough to cause actual damage to the tissue.

 

[jc2]

Here's an interesting quote from Ammo Lab (originally posted on WT). One 10mm (175-grain Silvertip), one .357 Magnum (145-grain Silvertip) and two .45 ACPs (230-grain +P Ranger T and 230-grain HST) make the "first tier." The much vaunted Double Tap fall into the "second tier" (probably because it's pushing the bullets too fast for optimum performance--velocity is not everything). The majority of the 10mm loads fall in the "third tier."

In properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin using the 4 layer 14oz denim heavy cloth IWBA/FBI standard protocols the following products provide improved performance over all of the best in class 9mm and .40S&W loadings:

Winchester 175gr 10mm Silvertip
125gr Winchester 9x23mm ST
145gr .357 Magnum Winchester Silvertip
230gr Winchester Ranger RA45T+P
Federal 230gr .45acp HST

Slightly smaller diameter/depth cavity sizes are created by the following loadings:
DoubleTap, ProLoad, and Georgia Arms 180gr and 155gr 10mm loadings
Remington, ProLoad, and Georgia Arms 185gr .45acp +P jhp

10mm Loadings with greater overall penetration depths but equal diameter temporal and permanent stretch cavities to the better 9mm and .40S&W loadings are:
DoubleTap 10mm XTP
Hornandy 10mm XTP
PMC 170gr jhp
Remington 180gr jhp
Federal 180gr jhp

 

[atblis]

here's my take on 10mm

10mm is much more powerful/effective than 40SW and 9mm. Anybody who argues otherwise is an idiot.

Nobody wants to admit that they can't shoot a 10mm so they make the argument that there isn't that big a difference (or none at all if they're really full of it). Personally, I carry a 9mm and reserve the 10mm for hunting and soda can blasting.
Yes 10mm recoils more
Yes 10mm is more powerful
Yes 10mm is more fun

Why 10mm?
It's more powerful
It's more fun
It recoils more (fun to let your friends shoot it)

Why is that so hard to grasp?

 

[duncan]

jc2

Here's an interesting quote from Ammo Lab (originally posted on WT). One 10mm (175-grain Silvertip), one .357 Magnum (145-grain Silvertip) and two .45 ACPs (230-grain +P Ranger T and 230-grain HST) make the "first tier." The much vaunted Double Tap fall into the "second tier" (probably because it's pushing the bullets too fast for optimum performance--velocity is not everything). The majority of the 10mm loads fall in the "third tier."

Maybe I'm wrong, but people are made of fleshm, bone, and water. Not gelatin.

I prefer street or mountain/pg tests.

 

[Dain Bramage]

What jc2 calls "third tier" loads exhibit "..greater overall penetration depths but equal diameter temporal and permanent stretch cavities to the better 9mm and .40S&W loadings.."

Sounds better than 9mm and .40 to me. What you are looking at are good hunting loads. The XTPs in particular are known to limit expansion in order to boost through-and-through penetration, and increase blood loss in game.

Don't slam them for acting as designed.

 

[Shootcraps]

10mm is much more powerful/effective than 40SW and 9mm. Anybody who argues otherwise is an idiot.

Nobody wants to admit that they can't shoot a 10mm so they make the argument that there isn't that big a difference (or none at all if they're really full of it). Personally, I carry a 9mm and reserve the 10mm for hunting and soda can blasting.
Yes 10mm recoils more
Yes 10mm is more powerful
Yes 10mm is more fun

Why 10mm?
It's more powerful
It's more fun
It recoils more (fun to let your friends shoot it)

Why is that so hard to grasp?

Rock on atblis!!!! One hundred and ten frikkin' percent!!

 

[jc2]

duncan-

Maybe I'm wrong, but people are made of fleshm, bone, and water. Not gelatin.

Yes, duncan, they are, BUT the results obtained with properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin have been proven to correlate very closely with the results obtained in "fleshm[sic], bone, and water." In other words, what happens in ballistic gelatin is what happens in flesh. If you really "prefer street or mountain/pg tests," then you will have a long time to wait, and you can forget about most 10mm loads altogether (including Double Tap) because they have no historical "street results" (and are very unlikely to have any). Most 10mm (and particularly the newer versions) are totally unproven when it comes to actual use. When it comes to most 10mm loads, the best we have is ballistic gelatin.

Dain Bramage -

The term "third tier" was strictly relative to the Ammo Lab quote, period. Don't read any other qualitative evaluation into it. As for being "better," that becomes pretty subjective. The 10mm loads offer no greater "diameter temporal and permanent stretch cavities" than the best 9x19 or .40 S&W loads but do offer more penetration. Since those very same best 9x19 and .40 S&W loads all offer very good penetration for anti-personnel use, those particular 10mm loads offer no advantage over best 9x19 or .40 S&W loads in an anti-personnel role (and may very well indeed offer some disadvantages depending on their particular penetrative characteristics). Now, in a hunting role (versus an anti-personnel role), they may have some advantages over the 9x19.

The bottom line is the best .357 Magnum, 9x23 and .45 ACP loads CAN equal the best 10mm (and offer "improved performance over all of the best in class 9mm and .40S&W loadings"). That, in and of itself, does not necessarily make them "better" than 9x19 or .40 S&W because there are other factors involved besides performance (otherwise we'd all be carrying .308s, right).

 

[atblis]

Driving bullets too fast

"for optimum performance"
I call phooey on this. Faster is better (when you don't care about damaging meat, overpenetration, recoil, etc.).

I can see the Hot 45acp = 10mm argument
40SW = 10mm Ha Ha Ha
9x19 = 10mm Ha Ha Ha

 

[treeprof]

You can call "phooey" all you want on the velocity vs. performance issue, but most of the major bullet makers have established the optimum perfomance velocity windows for their bullets, and you can find those data in such things as Hornady's annual catalog and Speer's reloading manual. You can indeed push bullets (esp. hollowpoints) too fast, even at handgun velocities. Faster is NOT always better and does not always lead to more damage; even the most rudimentary understanding of bullet construction, not to mention a perusal of the bullet makers published data, will reveal such.

I am, BTW, a big fan and consumer of both the 10mm and (some types of) DoubleTap ammo.

 

[atblis]

The manufacturers

like to throw around the % weight retained number. I dare to say this is mostly a marketing scheme. That is why they have a velocity guideline for their bullets.

Deer hunting I might care about % retained
Groundhog hunting I could care less
People... You decide

 

[treeprof]

It has little to do with "weight retained" per se, but rather with penetration, rate of expansion and the ability to hold together in general. When a company like Speer or Hornady recommend that reloaders not to exceed a particular velocity with a partcular bullet, it is because it is a performance related matter and has nothing to do with "marketing". You have a lot to learn about bullets and their performance.

 

[Rockstar]

duncan: If you'll add a little Viagra to whatever powder you're using for loads for your "Limber Classic," I believe you'll see some positive results.

 

[tomhorn]

I own a colt delta elite s/s compare it to a 41 mag but as a auto
The round was made for the bren 10 but they down loaded it so the special forces swat could control it in very close quarters it was a 40 cal NOT THE SAME ANIMAL a full blown 10 will out do most autos in way of penetrion . I shoot a 180 grain it hits a live animal its DRT .

 

[jc2]

Tom, you're overestimating the 10mm and underestimating the .357 Magnum. The hottest 10mm loads are basically ballistic twins of the hottest .357 Magnum loads.

The hottest .41 Magnum loads exceed the energy of the hottest by ~50%. The .41 Magnum is in a whole different league.

 

[atblis]

Ha

I do have a lot to learn. So does everybody else because we are all just making this crap up (Manufacturers included).

Pistol bullets
I have driven them to extreme velocities with my muzzle loader and they expand and penetrate very well. If you want to see what these pistol bullets do at extreme velocities I can't think of a better test than the muzzle loader and a deer.

A 155gr XTP at 1450fps sounds good to me.

 

[treeprof]

Yep, people are making crap up, but it's not the bullet manufacturers or those who pay attenton to their data.

 

[355sigfan]

I own a colt delta elite s/s compare it to a 41 mag but as a auto
The round was made for the bren 10 but they down loaded it so the special forces swat could control it in very close quarters it was a 40 cal NOT THE SAME ANIMAL a full blown 10 will out do most autos in way of penetrion . I shoot a 180 grain it hits a live animal its DRT .
END QUOTE

Excuse me but does anyone else think this guy is reading too many comic books. The 10mm was never used by special forces swat (no such group exists) The 10mm was downloaded by the FBI because its agents were having difficulty with the full power load. The FBI has a difficult qualification course. The hottest 10mm ammo is more comparable to the hottest 357 mag ammo. It only compares to lightly loaded 41 mag ammo not the full power hunting stuff.

I used to believe Energy was the most important factor I have since learned that bullet design is the more important factor in load selection. Velocity is still nice to have but its not as important as the bullet itself.
Pat

 

[atblis]

You can't seperate the two.

Saying that bullets are more important than velocity is ridiculous. They are inseparable.

 

[355sigfan]

Bullet design is far more important than velocity. For example a 38 special loaded with the +p 158 grain FBI load will do better than a 200 grain FMJ 10mm at 1500 fps. Bullet design is far more important. I would rather have a 9mm Ranger load than most 10mm loads.
Pat

 

[Igloodude]

I like shooting 10mm in my Glock 20 because I have more versatility to reload for any purpose.

Want to introduce a new shooter to handgunning? Load up some sot recoiling 200 grain rounds doing 900 fps.

Want to shoot 50 and 100 yard targets? Load up some 165/180 grainers that are pushing 1200 plus fps and you get a flat shooter.

Want to hunt deer or boar close in? Get some 180 nuclear rounds doing 1350 fps or so.

Need self defense ammo? Buy some DoubleTapp ammo.

Love my 9mm guns but can do more with one Glock 20!

You just cannot load this variety of rounds in one caliber.

10mm certainly is versatile. But when you can download 45ACP to 200gr doing 720fps or push a 185gr to nearly 1400fps or so (okay, so the latter is .45 Super but still using the same gun, reloader, and dies), and still go to your local store to get cheap Mk1Mod0 hardball or good self defense ammo, I fail to see how the 45 is less versatile.

And I can shoot my .45ACP loads in my carbine...

 

[1911austin]

Bullet design is far more important than velocity. For example a 38 special loaded with the +p 158 grain FBI load will do better than a 200 grain FMJ 10mm at 1500 fps. Bullet design is far more important. I would rather have a 9mm Ranger load than most 10mm loads.

I think I agree with you here. You only need sufficient velocity to make a bullet expand and penetrate as designed. More modern bullet designs require less velocity to work than previous generations. Since the new bullets have a lower velocity window they remain effective with less recoil and muzzle blast than older designs which must be propelled much faster to work. To say velocity is not as important as bullet design in not quite correct. You could not throw a Ranger T hard enough to be effective.

 

[atblis]

Sure

"I would rather have a 9mm Ranger load than most 10mm loads"
You wouldn't prefer a larger, heavier bullet at similar or perhaps higher velocities? You know they make super duper magic expanding bullets in .40 as well. Right?

10mm does have some down sides. Terminal performance is probably not one of them.

 

[jc2]

10mm does have some down sides. Terminal performance is probably not one of them.

Of course, the same is true of the 9x19/357 SIG, .40 S&W and .45 ACP (and often with fewer downsides than the 10mm). Of course, that has always been one the 10mm's major problems. In fact, there is a lot more 9x19/357 SIG, .40 S&W and .45 ACP ammunition than 10mm ammunition that offers superior terminal performance (not to mention being far more readily available and generally less expensive).

The 10mm is versatile round--that's it strength. It can be a good defence round and is a decent (but not spectacular) hunting round. Unfortunately for the 10mm, however, there are better defence rounds and much better hunting rounds. Unless you have a pressing need for a single round to do both (or just absolutely insist on hunting with an bottom feeder), there are better choices available.