With more recoil comes slower split times simple law of physics its not a moot point. Get a timer and see for yourself. Now if your shooting the 40sw level 10mm ammo thats so common these days then the recoil is comparable.
Pat
Pat
Why the 10mm...??
- Thread starter phantomak47
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The only two credible reservations one might conceivably have about the 10mm AUTO were mentioned by Coronach and MTMilitiaman.
In fact, other than me, MTmilitiaman is the only poster I've seen who's stressed that 10mm users carrying high-performance self-defense loads (loads at or near full-power) are obliged to train more frequently in order to achieve and maintain proficiency and good shooting technique. (If all you want a 10mm pistol for is to shoot 40-level loads in it, get a .40). If you're not willing to invest enough training time and ammo money in your 10mm pistol to get good with it, then sell it and get a .40 or,
, a 9mm.
As Coronach mentioned, the other issue is grip size. The COAL for the 10mm and .45acp are nearly identical (1.260 & 1.275, respectively). This wasn't by accident. One of the 10mm's design concepts was for it to work within the .45acp's feed-cycle, which means a .45-size gun. Both cartridges thus require a certain minimum grip size, which usually results in a large-framed pistol.
Some people, women for instance, have issues with large grips. For such individuals, size not only impacts felt-recoil but also their control of the weapon during firing and thus accuracy. On the other hand, if you can comfortably and accurately shoot a .45acp gun, then (again with practice) you should have no problem becoming proficient with its 10mm counterpart (e.g., 4506 & 1006; G21 & G20; G30 & G29; 45acp 1911 & 10mm 1911).
"*** you will always shoot a 10mm slower with split-times (rate of fire) ***"
"Split-times" are for gun-gamers. Who cares what some IDPA stop-watch commando says?
The issue, as MT said, is whether you've trained regularly enough to shoot with effective speed against an armed assailant - and to do so under stress. Effective speed means firing as fast as you can accurately place rounds into the BG (upper COM/thoracic cavity). This can include double or triple taps with hot self-defense ammo if you've drilled enough to get to that level. I've personally witnessed several 10mm carriers who are fast and accurate with the hotter loads. But to get there they didn't spend time watching Oprah, or reading the gunrags at the gunshop, or debating the latest ballistical voodoo with some on-line posers.
In fact, other than me, MTmilitiaman is the only poster I've seen who's stressed that 10mm users carrying high-performance self-defense loads (loads at or near full-power) are obliged to train more frequently in order to achieve and maintain proficiency and good shooting technique. (If all you want a 10mm pistol for is to shoot 40-level loads in it, get a .40). If you're not willing to invest enough training time and ammo money in your 10mm pistol to get good with it, then sell it and get a .40 or,
, a 9mm. As Coronach mentioned, the other issue is grip size. The COAL for the 10mm and .45acp are nearly identical (1.260 & 1.275, respectively). This wasn't by accident. One of the 10mm's design concepts was for it to work within the .45acp's feed-cycle, which means a .45-size gun. Both cartridges thus require a certain minimum grip size, which usually results in a large-framed pistol.
Some people, women for instance, have issues with large grips. For such individuals, size not only impacts felt-recoil but also their control of the weapon during firing and thus accuracy. On the other hand, if you can comfortably and accurately shoot a .45acp gun, then (again with practice) you should have no problem becoming proficient with its 10mm counterpart (e.g., 4506 & 1006; G21 & G20; G30 & G29; 45acp 1911 & 10mm 1911).
"*** you will always shoot a 10mm slower with split-times (rate of fire) ***"
"Split-times" are for gun-gamers. Who cares what some IDPA stop-watch commando says? The issue, as MT said, is whether you've trained regularly enough to shoot with effective speed against an armed assailant - and to do so under stress. Effective speed means firing as fast as you can accurately place rounds into the BG (upper COM/thoracic cavity). This can include double or triple taps with hot self-defense ammo if you've drilled enough to get to that level. I've personally witnessed several 10mm carriers who are fast and accurate with the hotter loads. But to get there they didn't spend time watching Oprah, or reading the gunrags at the gunshop, or debating the latest ballistical voodoo with some on-line posers.
Actually split times matter in real life. The faster you get lead placed accurately in the badguy the faster he will stop. The Navy seals did a study comparing the effectiveness of 9mm ball and 45 ball in combat and their results were that the caliber did not make much difference and that only fast accurate follow up shots ensured netralizing the threat. So split times do matter. If now we would all be carring 454 snubs.
Pat
Pat
MachIVshooter
Member
I can sum up why in one word: Barriers.
The 10mm 180 gr. FMJ penetrates barriers far more effectively than .45 230 gr. FMJ. We did some testing with 1/2" and 1" ballistic lexan. Of the 5 cartridges tested, 4 went through the 1/2". .45 230 gr. ball was not one of them. Only 1 went through the 1" plate. Guess which round it was. The other 3 rounds were 9mm 115 gr. FMJ, .40 S&W 155 gr. FMJ and .357 Mag. 158 gr. JSP. I would bet the .357 would defeat the 1" with FMJ as well.
I am not suggesting that a civilian is likely to need a handgun that will defeat light barriers, but never say never. Look at the incident at the Tyler, TX courthouse; If the permit holder, god rest his soul, had had a 10mm he may have penetrated the mans armor and survived. With more and more incidents where criminals have light body armor, I definitely like knowing I have a firearm that will defeat a good share of it. I love the .45 ACP, but it has some shortcomings that were addressed with the 10mm. Why not have every possible advantage?
No because a 22 short does not penetrate or expand enough to be a reliable stopper. However the 9mm does it expands to .70 and penetrates 12 to 15 inches depending on the load. And 3 9mms striking the target in the same time it takes to get 2 10mm's on target equals an overall edge to the 9mm. Same advantage applies to the 45 acp just slightly less so as it has more recoil than the 9mm. Any questions. 
Pat
Pat
duncan
Member
Versatility
I like shooting 10mm in my Glock 20 because I have more versatility to reload for any purpose.
Want to introduce a new shooter to handgunning? Load up some sot recoiling 200 grain rounds doing 900 fps.
Want to shoot 50 and 100 yard targets? Load up some 165/180 grainers that are pushing 1200 plus fps and you get a flat shooter.
Want to hunt deer or boar close in? Get some 180 nuclear rounds doing 1350 fps or so.
Need self defense ammo? Buy some DoubleTapp ammo.
Love my 9mm guns but can do more with one Glock 20!
You just cannot load this variety of rounds in one caliber.
All else fails, you can buy 40SW and 357 sig barrels for it too!
I like shooting 10mm in my Glock 20 because I have more versatility to reload for any purpose.
Want to introduce a new shooter to handgunning? Load up some sot recoiling 200 grain rounds doing 900 fps.
Want to shoot 50 and 100 yard targets? Load up some 165/180 grainers that are pushing 1200 plus fps and you get a flat shooter.
Want to hunt deer or boar close in? Get some 180 nuclear rounds doing 1350 fps or so.
Need self defense ammo? Buy some DoubleTapp ammo.
Love my 9mm guns but can do more with one Glock 20!
You just cannot load this variety of rounds in one caliber.
All else fails, you can buy 40SW and 357 sig barrels for it too!
MTMilitiaman
Member
Show me test results showing a .40 Smith and Wesson expanding to over an inch in ballistic geletin...http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336612
MachIVshooter
Member
At no time have I suggested that the 10mm was an armor-defeating round. I only said it is more effective against barriers (including light armor) than .45 ACP. I have not come to this conclusion arbitrarily. I have tested against a multitude of mediums, including ballistic Lexan, nylon and Kevlar.
As to the arguement that a 9mm, .40, .45 is just as effective, why, then, is there an energy requirement for hunting that the 9mm, .40, .45 do not meet with any load? Deer, by and large, are similarly sized to human beings. So it stands to reason that a round deemed more appropriate for hunting them is more effective on humans as well. Or maybe the DOW is just stupid?
It is obvious to me that you harbor some serious animosity toward the 10mm auto and that no amount of reasoning will change that.
duncan
Member
Who suggested that any pistol caliber (even with AP) would be really effective against body armor.
I know of at least two officers who sustained torso gunshot wounds while wearing body armor. Both got shot in the armpit and shoulder areas and the round got in.
As to most barriers, the 10mm is the most commonly carried handgun caliber that is pretty effective. 44 mag is nice but Desert Eagles are just not PC for duty carry and a SS SW revolver would be too Dirty Harry for duty too.
10mm is a great utility round - it's just that most people have never shot it BUT still have an irrational basis/opinion. In my circles, its called non-critical thinking.
Enough with the haters - if you have ever shot 10mm for more than one box - talk - if not - mark this post and read later.
Major Beer
Member
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2005
- Messages
- 82
#'s
#'s
or
chevy vs ford
i would rather run a 40 S&W vs 10 only becuase of:
1 - production of round
2 - potential
i have seen the aguments -- this is better than that
i wanted a 10mm but i do not like Glocks. i see the 40 S&W like a 45 GAP - lots of propaganda but shooter like whut a shooters like. ya a LITTLE less than the topper caliber but - a compromise.
the argumenbt of a 10mm vs a 40 is like a 45 GAP vs a 45 ACP - unless you load too perfection and have a shootout what is the diff - shoot what you like my friend. yes there are sweeter load for the older round but going to a 10mm you have more or less a reloader's round.
my 2 cents.
if you want cheaper shooting - go 9mm - big gun - go 45 acp -
my 2 cents
#'s
or
chevy vs ford
i would rather run a 40 S&W vs 10 only becuase of:
1 - production of round
2 - potential
i have seen the aguments -- this is better than that
i wanted a 10mm but i do not like Glocks. i see the 40 S&W like a 45 GAP - lots of propaganda but shooter like whut a shooters like. ya a LITTLE less than the topper caliber but - a compromise.
the argumenbt of a 10mm vs a 40 is like a 45 GAP vs a 45 ACP - unless you load too perfection and have a shootout what is the diff - shoot what you like my friend. yes there are sweeter load for the older round but going to a 10mm you have more or less a reloader's round.
my 2 cents.
if you want cheaper shooting - go 9mm - big gun - go 45 acp -
my 2 cents
Major Beer
Member
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2005
- Messages
- 82
after readin -
i am going to carry a 500 S&W snubby
only need a 2 foot holster
i am going to carry a 500 S&W snubby
only need a 2 foot holster
Enough with the haters - if you have ever shot 10mm for more than one box - talk - if not - mark this post and read later.
END QUOTE
I carried one for the better part of a year on duty. I owned a Glock 20 and a Smith 610 and fired at least 5000 rounds through both combined.
Pat
END QUOTE
I carried one for the better part of a year on duty. I owned a Glock 20 and a Smith 610 and fired at least 5000 rounds through both combined.
Pat
Why are people mentioning the fact that 9mm comes in AP loads while 10mm doesn't? For 99% of the people carrying a 9 or a 10, the fact that AP exists or does not exist for their caliber does not matter.
I thought AP handgun loads were illegal under Fed law for "civilians" to own.
The fact that I cannot own armor piercing handgun ammo does not bother me much. If I need AP capabilities I have many long guns that will do so. Also I own handguns chambered in 7.62x25Tok and in 30carbine that are quite capable of high penetration with standard lead core projectiles.
10mm is a good decent round but the lack of guns so chambered on the market in my area and the fact that the ammo tends to be expensive and less available has prevented me from owning one of my own yet.
I thought AP handgun loads were illegal under Fed law for "civilians" to own.
The fact that I cannot own armor piercing handgun ammo does not bother me much. If I need AP capabilities I have many long guns that will do so. Also I own handguns chambered in 7.62x25Tok and in 30carbine that are quite capable of high penetration with standard lead core projectiles.
10mm is a good decent round but the lack of guns so chambered on the market in my area and the fact that the ammo tends to be expensive and less available has prevented me from owning one of my own yet.
MachIVshooter brought up the body armor issue in this post.
QUOTE
am not suggesting that a civilian is likely to need a handgun that will defeat light barriers, but never say never. Look at the incident at the Tyler, TX courthouse; If the permit holder, god rest his soul, had had a 10mm he may have penetrated the mans armor and survived. With more and more incidents where criminals have light body armor, I definitely like knowing I have a firearm that will defeat a good share of it. I love the .45 ACP, but it has some shortcomings that were addressed with the 10mm. Why not have every possible advantage?
END QUOTE
Pat
QUOTE
am not suggesting that a civilian is likely to need a handgun that will defeat light barriers, but never say never. Look at the incident at the Tyler, TX courthouse; If the permit holder, god rest his soul, had had a 10mm he may have penetrated the mans armor and survived. With more and more incidents where criminals have light body armor, I definitely like knowing I have a firearm that will defeat a good share of it. I love the .45 ACP, but it has some shortcomings that were addressed with the 10mm. Why not have every possible advantage?
END QUOTE
Pat
duncan
Member
Love 45 acp and 10mm.
Have a Glock 20 and 21 in addtion to a beloved Limber Classic Series I in 45 too!
Reload for the all!
Have a Glock 20 and 21 in addtion to a beloved Limber Classic Series I in 45 too!
Reload for the all!
I came across an antelope that had been hit by a car yesterday.. Broken back and dragging it's rear end. ( I hate creeps that leave animals to suffer like that)
I carry a DW CCO 10mm.. One shot to the back of the head. Instant death..
180 golden saber reload full penetration at 15 yards and popped both eyes out of her head..
It will knock a 1000 pound steer or a horse down instantly with a head shot..(45 may or may not penetrate, 9mm, at least 2 shots,maybe more)
If I gotta kill them, I want it instantaneous....
Effective on prairie dogs out to all reasonable pistol ranges without sight adjustment..
Works for me.
I carry a DW CCO 10mm.. One shot to the back of the head. Instant death..
180 golden saber reload full penetration at 15 yards and popped both eyes out of her head..
It will knock a 1000 pound steer or a horse down instantly with a head shot..(45 may or may not penetrate, 9mm, at least 2 shots,maybe more)
If I gotta kill them, I want it instantaneous....
Effective on prairie dogs out to all reasonable pistol ranges without sight adjustment..
Works for me.
So then does anyone know the level of vest required to stop common 10mm threats? I always though level IIa armor would stop most 10mm, am I wrong? Also in the Tyler incident I believe the perp was wearing two vests so I doubt most handguns would have done much good. I've heard the theory that a hit with something like a 10mm on body armor can still somewhat incapacitate even w/o penetration where a lesser caliber won't but I'm not sure how much I believe that.
A level 2 vest will stop a 10mm easily as it will also stop a 357 mag which is harder to stop. And no the trauma from a 10mm will not stop someone. Vests protection level is rated by the amount of backface deformantion a vest leaves on a clay block when the round is fired at it. In other words lower level vests will still stop some more powerfull rounds than their rates for from penetrating but they would induce quite a bit of damage from how far the vest is pushed into the body. So if a vest is rated for 357 mag or 10mm then the trauma would not be enough to seriously injure you. In fact even if it was its no quarentee it will stop the fight. There have been people hit with shotgun slugs in body armor who kept fighting. Thats some serious trauma.
Pat
Pat
Dw Cco?
OK - was thinking about getting a .40 - but was reminded of the 10mm thanks to this thread. Ideal would be a Commander-size 1911 in 10mm.
I do not like the grip angle of Glocks.
What about the Witness?
What is that DW CCO?? (looks interesting)
Any other good choices?
OK - was thinking about getting a .40 - but was reminded of the 10mm thanks to this thread. Ideal would be a Commander-size 1911 in 10mm.
I do not like the grip angle of Glocks.
What about the Witness?
What is that DW CCO?? (looks interesting)
Any other good choices?
shield20:
Other options would include the S&W 10mms, if any models in decent condition can be found in your area. From your post, I take it you're interested in a narrower grip than what the G20/G21 have.
The grip size of the Smith 10mms and 45s are basically the same. If you can access a 4506 or 4566 just to hold and handle one, and it fits you, then so would the 5" 1006 or the 4.25" "Commander"-size 1076 and 1066. Just a suggestion.
Other options would include the S&W 10mms, if any models in decent condition can be found in your area. From your post, I take it you're interested in a narrower grip than what the G20/G21 have.
The grip size of the Smith 10mms and 45s are basically the same. If you can access a 4506 or 4566 just to hold and handle one, and it fits you, then so would the 5" 1006 or the 4.25" "Commander"-size 1076 and 1066. Just a suggestion.
Exiledviking
Member
For a personal defense weapon,I will pick the G20
over the G21 or the G22 everytime!!!!
I have shot all three and I currently compete with
a Glock 35.
The split times between the 10mm and the .45 is not
anything I would take into consideration one way or another.
The split times didn't seem to come into play when a lot of
law enforcement and civilians shifted to .357Magnum from the .38Special...
Long live the 10mm!!!
over the G21 or the G22 everytime!!!!
I have shot all three and I currently compete with
a Glock 35.
The split times between the 10mm and the .45 is not
anything I would take into consideration one way or another.
The split times didn't seem to come into play when a lot of
law enforcement and civilians shifted to .357Magnum from the .38Special...
Long live the 10mm!!!
fisherman66
Member
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2005
- Messages
- 379
Iggy;
Don't they slaughter bovines with 22lr with a shot to the head?
Not that being over prepared is a bad thing, just over prepared.
Don't they slaughter bovines with 22lr with a shot to the head?
Not that being over prepared is a bad thing, just over prepared.
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