Why the 10mm...??

[355sigfan]

Which particular LEAs do or don't use DT Ammo is irrelevant.
END QUOTE

Yes it is relevant when a poster claims major LEA's use it a selling point. He is basically a large scale handloader. I doubt he has the same resources and testing capabilitys as the big boys. Thats fine too. You don't see major LEA's using ammo from Black hills, Proload ext. Its pretty much Winchester, Remington, Speer and Federal.

Pat

 

[1911austin]

Which particular LEAs do or don't use DT Ammo is irrelevant. DT's ammo is commercially produced for retail sale nationwide, no different from the commercially produced ammunition products offered by Remington, Winchester, etc., or any of the similar smaller retail makers (who no one seems as enthusiastic to slander by denigrating their products as "handloads" or "reloads"), like Black Hills, Georgia Arms, Texas Ammo, Buffalo Bore, Proload (when they were operating), etc.

+1.

DoubleTap is a legit commerical company. With some outstanding products.

 

[agtman]

Frequently Wrong But Never in Doubt

"He is basically a large scale handloader."

Ah, no he's not. Please do your homework.

DT is a licensed commercial ammo-maker, employing the same high-quality components to produce its ammo line-up as the other retail ammo-makers (big & small) listed in my previous post. The fact that he's a licensed commercial producer, selling and distributing ammunition products in interstate commerce, means he's not a "handloader."

Or else, by Pat's silly definition, all of them are "large scale handloaders."

"You don't see major LEAs using ammo from Blackhills, ProLoad, etc"

Actually, Black Hills is a HUGE supplier of training and duty ammo for any number of LEAs as well as to individual officers. For years ProLoad likewise supplied many LEAs and individual officers with duty ammo. (The qualifier "major" you inserted is a non sequitar).

Maybe it's never dawned on anyone, but once upon a time Remington, Federal and Winchester all started their ammo-making businesses as relatively small operations.

 

[jc2]

Mike McNett performs all his shooting tests in "real world" conditions.

Just because someone is good a developing loads does not necessarily mean he is qualified to perform ballistic gelatin testing. Mike's penetration and expansion figures for his 10mm Gold Dot loads are highly questionable. Anybody would be well-advised to take his penetration and expansion "data" with a very large grain of salt pending the results from a professional independent lab.

Actually, Black Hills is a HUGE supplier of training and duty ammo for any number of LEAs as well as to individual officers.

Unfortunately, we are talking about Double Tap NOT Black Hills which has no meaningful presence in the LE market. Gunfan's, "That's why he has amassed such strong sales to numerous branches of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies" is totally false. BTW, characterizing Black Hills as "a HUGE supplier" is definitely and overstatement.

There are a number of other posters on the internet, including many very well qualified to questions Mike's ballistic gelatin results who agree with my assessment of his "data."

 

[JohnKSa]

So, let me guess (I didn't bother to read the entire thread). In order to prove that the 10mm is irrelevant, the folks who take that position have begun denigrating the few ammunition makers that still supply full power 10mm ammunition.

Predictable...

BUT ironic given that one of the above posters has repeatedly used Buffalo Bore's published ammo specs to prove that .357Mag is more powerful than 10mm. I guess all small scale ammo producers are not the same!

 

[355sigfan]

Remington, Winchester and Federal were small at the turn of the century. I will give double tap a chance when they build more of a reputation. For now the jury is out. They don't make any of their own bullets rather just use other peoples bullets. If I want Golden Sabers or Golddots I will go to the source thankyou.
Pat

 

[jc2]

Predictable...

No more "predictable" than certain posters who, lacking anything substantial to add to discussion, resort to posting about other posters.

BTW, it is real stretch to turn "Anybody would be well-advised to take his [Mike McNett's] penetration and expansion "data" with a very large grain of salt pending the results from a professional independent lab" into "denigrating the few ammunition makers that still supply full power 10mm ammunition." FWIW, Buffalo Bore loads hot 10mm ammo as well.

 

[JohnKSa]

No more "predictable" than certain posters who...resort to posting about other posters.

Are you implying that commenting on posts made on this public forum is somehow questionable activity? I know nothing about you other than what you have made public. I haven't called you any names nor insulted you in any way. I suggest that if you are so sensitive that you become offended when someone mentions the contents of past posts you have made here that you should, perhaps, be more careful what you post in the future or refrain from posting at all.

BTW, I'm curious. What level of expertise, in your opinion, is required to make, calibrate and use ballistic gelatin? From what I've seen, once you get it made, there's a calibration process that is fairly foolproof. Are you saying that Mr. McNett is incapable of dealing with the "intricacies" of such testing and calibration? Or are you saying that he might not be reporting his results accurately?

 

[gunfan]

Why don't you ask him yourself?

"Proof please. I am a cop and as a firearms instructor I am pretty well tuned into what other agencys are using for ammo. I have yet to hear of anyone using Double tap. The FBI uses Federal, Speer and Remington depending on who wins the bid. I would be very shocked to hear of them using ammo from Double Tap. The legal liabilty in using Handloads is extreem.
Pat"


Call Mike at 1-866-357-1066 and ask the man that produces it! Mike has told me personally of his contracts to LEAs and FBI branches. Mike has been producing commercially-loaded premium ammunition for well over 2 1/2 years now, and has garnered an enviable reputation for his products. As an old man once said in a high-takes poker game, "I like what I have, and I think I'll hold onto 'em."

I would appreciate it if I were proven wrong, to publicly rectify my error. (I sincerely doubt that will happen.)

Scott

 

[355sigfan]

I don't doubt your honesty but rather the source. A lot of small companies often over state who they do buisness with to increase their sales with the public. For example Olymipic arms will tell you they have numerious LEO agency's using their rifles when in reality a handfull of officers bought them for personal use who happen to work at that agency. Or a few officers who did not know better bought them as a duty weapon because they were not issued a rifle but allowed to buy their own. I don't doubt some FBI agents may have purchased some Double tap ammo for personal use but its not authorized ammunition.
Pat

 

[jc2]

Are you implying that commenting on posts made on this public forum is somehow questionable activity? I

I'll let THR answer you:

1.) All topics and posts must be related to firearms or civil liberties issues.

Your post did not address a "firearm issue," but rather "the folks who take that position have begun denigrating the few ammunition makers that still supply full power 10mm ammunition" (which, BTW, is a totally inaccurate, inflammatory and misleading statement).

4.) . . . Attack the argument, not the arguer.

Again, your post did not address the "argument" but the "arguer."

From what I've seen, once you get it made, there's a calibration process that is fairly foolproof.

Now, you're finally back on topic. The initial mixing and calibrating is relatively simple, but to obtain consistent and meaningful results (and reporting the results) from ballistic gelatin testing is far from foolproof. Mike's results have been openly questioned by at least one major professional independent lab with a nation-wide reputation for integrity and quality testing results.

I would suggest you direct your questions/comments as to how simple and "foolproof" ballistic gelatin testing (versus mixing and calibrating ballistic gelatin) actually is to one of the nationally recognized professional testers like David DiFabio or Gary Roberts. The bottom line remains Mike penetration and expansion figures, particularl for his 10mm Gold Dot loads, must be taken with a large grain of salt pending verificiation by an independent, professional lab or tester.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

BTW, I'm curious. What level of expertise, in your opinion, is required to make, calibrate and use ballistic gelatin? From what I've seen, once you get it made, there's a calibration process that is fairly foolproof.

Nothing's foolproof. Fools prove that every day.

But the ballistics gelatin preparation, calibration and testing protocols are defined, and the relevant variables are published. Looking over the labs that do it, it needs to be carefully done and documented... but it can be and is certifiable from a quality system point of view.

The operators of the testing labs... particularly those in it for profit... will all talk about how careful they are, etc. The Speer folks are pretty open about their testing process, though they don't publish the full range of data. On the "independent" side, I can't recall who jc2 prefers (he's mentioned it a few times), but I like the candor of Bosik Ltd up in Canada.

 

[JohnKSa]

Come on jc,

Assuming all your past posts are firearms related (you follow the rules, right?)then commenting on them in the context of a gun discussion (this is a gun discussion right?) is also firearms related.

As always, if you truly believe that I am breaking the rules of the forum, you have my permission (as if you needed it) to report me to the mods. Otherwise you might as well stop wasting your effort trying to make a case for something that doesn't exist.

The bottom line remains Mike penetration and expansion figures, particularl for his 10mm Gold Dot loads, must be taken with a large grain of salt pending verificiation by an independent, professional lab or tester.

Given the relatively simple calibration procedure which functions as a sanity check, what level of error are you suggesting might be involved here. 5%? 10%?

 

[gunfan]

Why is it...

that a cartridge which deposits it's energy entirely within the "optimal penetration" of the FBI protocol, at a higher level than the .40 S&W (read: dispersing completely) be considered inferior? This I fail to comprehend.

There are issues such as permanent crush cavity, desanguination, (hypovolemia), neurological and organic destruction/disruption that have failed to be addressed within the perameters of tooday's "full power" 10mm Automatic ammunition.

Any cartridge that can impart more destructive energy into a living human organism, should result in a increased onset of trauma and it's ultimate demise.

Scott

 

[355sigfan]

that a cartridge which deposits it's energy entirely within the "optimal penetration" of the FBI protocol, at a higher level than the .40 S&W (read: dispersing completely) be considered inferior? This I fail to comprehend.
END QUOTE

Because energy dump does not matter and the cartridge recoils more hence slowing down follow up shots. Personally I value a little extra energy but not at the expense of over 40% more recoil. Especially when the advantages of more energy are not easily proven. I like it because I feel it has to be better like you feel. There is no proof that it is. At least not at handgun levels.
Pat

 

[gunfan]

Strange...

Shelley (the Mrs.) never seems to have any accuracy troubles with her "follow-up" shots while shooting any of my 10mm Auto pistol chambered handguns. I am not a big man either. This hasn't deterred me from rapidly recovering from the 10mm's recoil, especially in my Glock 20! (Practice, practice, practice!) This is something many shooters fail to do!

Am I missing something that hasn't been previously within this discussion?

Scott

 

[355sigfan]

Anyone can make follow up shots I can do it with my 5 shot Ruger that has been chambered in 45 colt launching 350 grian slugs at 1400 fps. But their not fast follow up shots. Do yourself a favor and buy a shot timer then time yourself with the hot 10mm ammo and then with a 45 and a 9mm and a 40sw. The more recoil the slower the shooting no matter how good you are. Its a constant.
Pat

 

[Johnny Guest]

Enough bickering

Someone start another thread about loads in some other caliber. Apparently 10mm raises too many hackles.

CLOSED

Johnny