Why police used Revolvers while military used 1911's "back in the day"?

[Vern Humphrey]

1. What were the attributes of the "SERVICE REVOLVER" that made it more favorable to LE over the semiautomatic M1911 pistol in service with the military?

There were several factors, not the least of which is tradition. The police revolver was the .38 Special, either S&W or Colt. The .38 S&W was developed more than a decade before the M1911 .45 automatic and was well-entrenched by that time.

Police guns are not normally subjected to much abuse, and many of them aren't fired that much. You can recall the bargains in "police turn-ins" that were available recently. Many of these guns were only lightly used.

The old hand-crafted Colts and S&W were more accurate than automatics. That counted on the target range. You may recall that for the 3-gun match, prior to WWII (and for a while after), the top shooters used the .38 Special for the "any centerfire" stage. It wasn't until the '50s and '60s that champions started using the M1911 for both "any centerfire" and "service pistol" stages.

2. What were the attributes of the "M1911 pistol" that made it more favorable to military personnel over the revolver in service with LE?

First of all, the Army wanted an automatic. Fortunately, the automatic they adopted was the best -- and proved it in several wars and minor engagements, all over the world, under all imaginable conditions. If we had adopted the Luger (which was a contender back then) things might be different today.

Secondly, military firearms are abused. They are carried and used in tropical rainstorms, men wade through swamps with them, sleep in foxholes and so on. I saw .38s issued to helicopter pilots turn into junk in Viet Nam.

Third, revolvers were not really mass-produced. It took craftsmanship and handfitting to produce those fine old Colts and S&Ws, and no little hand work to repair and re-time them. If the M1911 has a broken or worn part, it's essentially a drop-in proposition.

 

[kwelz]

it was the exact opposite, the military's primary weapon is not their sidearm...it is their longgun. for the police their sidearm was their only weapon.

I said the weapon is not the primary tool. I am not talking specifics here. I just mean a firearm period.

 

[rcmodel]

FYI: The first large law enforcement agency to carry the semi-auto DA was the Illinois State Police. They adopted the S&W Model 39 single-stack 9mm in 1967.
They later switched to the Model 59 double-stack when it became available in the mid-70's.

In the meantime, there were several documented instances of the S&W's magazine disconnect safety saving officers lives during a gun grab struggle when they were able to release the magazine before the BG got control of the officers gun.

rc

 

[Drail]

Hmmm.. the drugged up Moros were a myth eh? You should get off of the internet and read more books dude. I have read witnessed accounts of the drugged up Moros taking multiple hits from service rifles and continuing on. The Thompson-LaGarde tests for a new service pistol caliber were not conducted because of a myth. Soldiers were being hacked into pieces by these tribes.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

And before we showed up, they went after the Spaniards and Christian Phillipinos. The Spaniards called such suicide attackers "Juramentados" -- meaning "oath bound."

 

[snowbird]

I think there are a few reasons why officers carried revolvers over autos. The first was cost. It takes money in the budget, city's and counties don't like to spend money on cops. Thats was my take on it. We provided are own sidearm.

Secondly 1911's were kind of frowned on. Not that there not a great platform, it was because they were single actions. In a stand off situation, a lot of stress is present, and the chance of touching one off was not justified, well it is your azz.

Thirdly training some officers how to use an auto safely, well that is taxing. I seen autos go off at a guys feet, he was on my left side well on the range. That gun was a Double Eagle. Now that guy should have stuck with a revolver, it would have been safer for all. People got to remember that some cops can't handle guns very well (they end up being Lt.'s). Some guys don't clean weapons that often either.

 

[Drail]

"some cops can't handle guns very well (they end up being Lt's)". Being a former instructor (and former military) I can't stop laughing. There it is folks. +1 snowbird!

 

[justashooter in pa]

john browning developed the 45 ACP specifically for the US Army trials and mated it to an upsized version of one of his existing designs (1903) that had already been accepted into military service in some european countries. he knew that the USA had specified an autoloader in order to keep pace with foreign military development, and he knew that his earlier design would meet the requirements if chambered for a ballistic equivalent of the 45 Army round that was designed for the schoefield revolver, and could be fired in peacemakers.

JMB's gun could be field stripped without tools, could be manufactured in large quantities economically with 100% parts interchangeability and no hand fitting. it was utterly reliable, even more so after the upsizing from 38ACP. it's maintinance could be taught to recruits in a matter of an hour, and it could be field repaired with a minimal number of stock parts. it could be reloaded quickly, carried better than a revolver, and suffered field conditions better than a revolver.

the sheer simplicity of design was the gun's greatest attribute. i love my p226, but i trust my 1911 types.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

-remember in "Serpico" when he goes to the gun store and buys a Hi-Power? The clerk says something like "You going to war or something officer?"... when he inquires into the capacity of the HP...

 

[joed]

I wouldn't say the military was ever sold on the 1911 auto. When I was in the service in 1969 there were 2 choices of pistols offered. You could have a 1911 or a .38 Spl in Colt or S&W. In the 80's the military did away with revolvers as did the majority of police departments.

 

[Nicodemus38]

the police werent supposed to get into shootouts with criminals. police were to subdue with logic and reson and a good billy club to the back of a recalcitrant suspects head.

the normal bullet used for police work was the ancient lead round nose bullet. thats a very easy and cheap bullet to load into a straight walled pistol case, but can be tricky to work with in the 45 acp case.
second, from reputable sources, the semi autos werent designed to leave the factory with a feed ramp that was perfect functioning with both fmj and hollow point ammo. i dont believe it was until the early 70s that the popularity of the speer flying ashtry hollow point in 45acp forced colt to make factory guns designed to feed fmj and hollowpoint ammo relieably without paying a gunsmith to do some magic.

 

[jaysouth]

In 1969 when I got of the army and went into law enforcement, the only autos available were the Smith 39 and Colt Gov model.

The colt available for general use was not as accurate or reliable as a modern Smith or Colt auto. It also required MUCH more training and support. the only ammo available for another ten years was ball. The smith was just too 'new fangled'.

The revolver was tried and true. It worked without more than minimal maintenance or armorer support. Most cops carried the same revolver for an entire career without the grips or sideplates coming off.

Cops who were dogface GIs came away from the service with very negative attitudes about the 1911. It was not accurate or reliable because of the condition of the WWII manufactured guns and lack of emphasis on training in the services. Few GIs ever got to shoot their issued GI .45s, even if carried in combat.

 

[Z71]

The reality of it is that the military issued huge numbers of revolvers too.

The military had been buying .38 S&W, Colt, and Ruger revolvers to serve alongside the 1911. Also more than a few S&W and Colt 1917 revolvers in .45acp were used between the world wars.

Read the newest NRA 'American Rifleman' artical about the transition to the M9 Beretta.

The artical details how the cost of maintaining the 1911, and various .38 revolvers prompted the search for a new service pistol in standard NATO 9mm.

Police used revolvers and some still do because thats what was around and reliable. The huge numbers of various semi-auto pistols available today were not so numerous in the 1970's and 1980's. Revolvers ruled those days.

Many of the popular auto-pistols we all take for granted now didn't exist in the 1980's, or not in the US anyhow. Glocks didn't hit the market until 1986 or so, and the Sig 226 about the same. The Sig being designed to compete for the 1980's US military pistol tests. S&W M&P, Sigma, Springfield XD, etc were in the future.

Browning Hi-Powers, and S&W 39, 59, and 459, and 1911's being about the only US made choices, excepting old designs such as P38, Lugers, and a few other European sidearms.

 

[Offfhand]

Simple answer: The idea of autos for military was to hurt the enemy. Revolvers for police, to keep them from huring themselves.

 

[easyg]

1. What were the attributes of the "SERVICE REVOLVER" that made it more favorable to LE over the semiautomatic M1911 pistol in service with the military?

Reliability.
Simplicity of use.

2. What were the attributes of the "M1911 pistol" that made it more favorable to military personnel over the revolver in service with LE?

Able to withstand more abuse.
Less training time needed to become combat accurate (mostly do to the superb 1911 trigger and grip).
Faster reloads with additional magazines.


I think that at the time (pre 1980's) the autoloader had not proved itself reliable enough to suit police officers.
Hence old sayings like "Six for sure rather than seven for maybe".

Truth be known, the average cop is more likely to be in a situation where he will need to use his handgun than the average military personnel.

The vast majority of military personnel were never even issued a handgun.

 

[jaysouth]

EasyG,

I agree with you about auto withstanding more abuse, being easier to strip to correct issues and fast reloads.

BUT, the WWII 1911s that we had in the sixties had lousy lousy triggers and were not reliable. The finishes were so worn that excessive maintenance was required to keep them rust free. In a year's tour, if you were unlucky enough to be issued a .45, the leather holster was wet and soaked with water for about 350 days.

Yes, the average LEO is probably more likely to use a handgun that then average GI plus he has less access to a backup that a GI in heated battle(there are backup weapons laying all over the ground. You just might have to move a body to get to it).

When 1911s were issued in the services, pilots were issued revolvers because they could be put in action with only one hand. Regulations required that your .45 be carried on an empty chamber until someone shot at you. Then it was OK to chamber a round. Carrying loaded, or god forbid, cocked and locked would cost you a stripe and a month's pay.

A relatively short time ago, there were not beavertail grip safties, extended thumb safeties, decent sights or smooth triggers. Bill Wilson was still milking cows and Les Baer was still tweaking a street dragster. Only when Kimber started marketing their pistols did 1911s take off in the early 90s.

 

[miket]

Only when Kimber started marketing their pistols did 1911s take off in the early 90s.

No, not ONLY Kimber. Far from it. The federal AWB of 1994 (remember that?) also precluded new pistols from being sold with magazines of higher than a capacity of 10 rounds. Manufacturers couldn't make magazines over 10 rounds to sell to the public, either. So, if it was going to be 10 or less, why not make them the BIG rounds? What would you rather have? 10+1 of .380/9mm or 7/8+1 of .45acp? Or even 10+1 of .45acp in some cases with wide body mag wells or extended magazines. Lots of people wanted the .45 caliber and THAT was the main reason for the huge resurgence of the 1911's popularity.

 

[Slamfire]

The reality of it is that the military issued huge numbers of revolvers too.

True. I'll bet they still have revolvers out there.

Any way, Victory Model in 38 Spl

 

[jaysouth]

Kimber was the first company to mass market 1911s with all the bells and whistles. They sold new with beavertail grip safties, extended thumb safeties, decent sights, and front cocking serrations. Until that time, 1911s were a niche market. Kimber brought them to the masses. It took Springfiled 10 years to catch up and Colt is finally getting the idea, although no one ever accused Colt of being proactive. If you bought a Kimber, you had everything you needed to be cool at the range. No more expensive and time consuming trips to gunsmiths, some of whom were good, some of whom were not.

When Kimbers came out, they were the hottest thing on the market. Certain models were impossible to obtain and commanded premium prices. Hi-caps did not become an issue until a couple of years into the ban. By 2000, the cost of pre-ban mags was out of control, prompting folks to buy single stack autos with mag capacity of less than 10 rounds. The large caliber/mag size coefficient was a factor in selling .45s, but lots of single stack 9mms were sold too.

The military wanted an auto that could be put into action with just one hand so they could standardize issue, parts, and support for aviators and ground forces. By the time the M-9 was adopted, there were at least a dozen different model revolvers in issue requiring a huge inventory of spares and depot support for just revolvers.

 

[isp2605]

FYI: The first large law enforcement agency to carry the semi-auto DA was the Illinois State Police. They adopted the S&W Model 39 single-stack 9mm in 1967.
They later switched to the Model 59 double-stack when it became available in the mid-70's.

Mostly true.
The ISP was the first agency to issue autos, namely the S&W 39 and later 39-2, starting in 1968. Many use the date 1967 as that was when it was decided to go to the 39 and a few were issued to command but the issue to the Troops didn't start until 1968.
The ISP never issued the 59. We carried the issued 39/39-2 until 1981 when we went to the 439. Those of us on SWAT were permitted to carry 459s if we bought our own. The 439 was the issued gun until about 1989 when the 459 was issued. Plain clothes agents were issued the 469 starting in about 1987.

 

[RobMoore]

I disagree that cops carry semi-autos because they are becoming more military-like. They carry semi-autos because more and more bad guys were carrying them.

They wear thigh-rig holsters and BDUs, and have M4s in their trunk because they are becoming more military-like (Not all or even most, but I've seen it in a few agencies, and they weren't special team guys).

 

[CornCod]

The police have become more militarized both in mentality and equipment. I also think that thirty years ago M1911's and auto-pistols in general were less reliable than revolvers.

 

[cz85cmbt]

I think to a large extent the revolver had become the norm and so there was no real push to change because it's what had always been in place. The other reason is that auto's were only effective with fmj, at least for the majority of the 20th century. Police used either hollow points or soft points. After jacketed hollow points gained reliability in their auto loading platforms and in terminal performance, the auto loader started coming on stronger and stronger.

 

[Averageman]

I just read

an article in an older American Rifleman that told about Bonnie and Clyde being taken in an Ambush.
The just of the article concerning handgun choices was the the .45acp would not penetrait those old cars at the time, however the .357 would.
The odd thing was that the Barkers had like 7 1911's and many, many mags in the car...

 

[JohnBT]

"Cops who were dogface GIs came away from the service with very negative attitudes about the 1911."

My father is one. He served in the Pacific in WWII and to this day thinks of the 1911 as a hand biter. After the war he became a VA State Trooper and never ever wanted another 1911.

Fwiw, he really likes my FNP-45. "Wish I would have had one of these back then."

John