Why video and audio recording are changing the nature of police work.

[hankdatank1362]

In any case, you can never use force to resist an officer.

Yeah, I was under the impression you could use whatever force was necessarry to prevent yourself from being arrested illegally... but you sure as hell better hope you're in the right!

Perhaps disarming police is a good idea, or creating a specialized armed unit similar to England? Of course the citizens would be allowed to carry and police could carry off duty as citizens. Just as not part of their routine job.

Well then perhaps you should move to that Mexican border town where they disarmed all the police (and gave them slingshots, IIRC)... I'm sure you'll FEEL much safer there.

 

[KenpoProfessor]

http://www.kmov.com/news/asseenonnews4/stories/kmov_localnews_070910_dashcam.bf5ceebd.html

An update

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[hoppinglark]

okay let's see, the Citizen's response was to ask the cop
"Can't i park here?"
and did he ever recieve a response?
yep that's a bad attitude alright...

Does my job make me come in contact with people who might kill me, well..
let's see
I was in the Marine Corp for 5 years so those people we came in contact with in Afghanistan were not so nice.

Now I work in a Pharmacy, and we've have several armed robbery attempts in the county, people walk in branish a gun and demand oxycontin 40.
So I guess that would make it okay for me to threaten the average guy coming in for Nexium and swear at him and tell him that I'll make up 9 things he did to get him thrown in jail,,right?

 

[Powderman]

Ho-kay, where do I start...

Now I work in a Pharmacy, and we've have several armed robbery attempts in the county, people walk in branish a gun and demand oxycontin 40.
So I guess that would make it okay for me to threaten the average guy coming in for Nexium and swear at him and tell him that I'll make up 9 things he did to get him thrown in jail,,right?

Of course not...and I have respect for pharmacists, taxi drivers, security officers and the like who face hazards like that. Please note that I agreed earlier--and still do--that the cop who responded was WAY out of line.

By the way, it hasn't been said enough--thank you for your service.

Next....

let the gutless wonder get another job if he's scared of the public, i get so tired of cops and some people crying about putting their life on the line, no one asked them to spend their life harrassing drivers, let them go after sex offenders and real criminals.

No one's whining here--simply stating a fact. The truth is this--when I put on my uniform, I stop and pray for the safety of my fellow officers, and myself. I ask God for an extra helping of compassion, understanding, wisdom and courage for the day. And I ask that if I do not make it home, that He will take care of my wife. Why? Because the first and foremost thought on almost every cop's mind is this: "Will this be the day I have to fight for my life?" "Will the next person I contact try their best to kill me, or my partner? What will I do if they try?"

And as for "harassing drivers" and going after real criminals, where do you think most criminals are arrested? That's right--as the result of a traffic stop or a Terry stop. 70% or more of the arrests we will make will be warrant arrests--and about half of those will involve traffic stops.

Next:

Try going onto a Indian reservation, I dont mean to make this a racial thing, but a lot of Native Americans have no love for white dudes (definately not all, I'm not trying to stereotype) Couple this with the fact that while I'm on the reservation I dont have any real rights and you've got a really hairy situation.

No offense taken, friend, and I know exactly what you're talking about. Just so happens that I am a Tribal cop.

And yes, you DO have rights. If the Tribal gov't will not address the problem, and it is criminal in nature, contact BIA, or the Department of the Interior.

Finally,

If someone from LA, DC, Chicago, whatever were to complain about how dangerous it is to live there, we would tell them to move. And they would NEVER reply with a "Are you willing to live here?" So, if you feel your job as an LEO is THAT dangerous, then quit. But don't pull the "Would you do it?" or "Does your job require..." crap.

Been there, too. Born and raised in the geographical center (almost) of the City of Chicago, in the Englewood District. Look that one up.

Being a cop is NOT about having a job. It is NOT about the money, the fame, the fortune, the uniform, or anything like that. It's a calling--a calling that comes deep from within your soul that impels you, even commands you to look out for your fellow man or woman. It's about a feeling that is extremely strong, that's a part of you--that says that you will be the barricade between good people and those who would do harm, and that you are willing to lay down your life to make sure that the people who trust you and depend on you are safe.

With all due respect, fella, until you walk a mile in my shoes--or any other cop's shoes--you don't know. That's neither good or bad--just fact.

I will reiterate--the cop in the video was WAY out of line. He could have handled the contact much more professionally. How would I have done it?

First of all, courtesy and respect from me. I inform the person in the vehicle of the reason for the stop. When he says, "Can I park here?" I reply with "Of course you can. I apologize for bothering you, but this is a high crime area, and we keep an eye out so that the area is safe for folks like you. May I see your license, registration and proof of insurance, please? I have a ton of paperwork to do when I contact someone, and I just need the information for my records."

Courtesy goes a long way.

Now, if the guy is abusive or confrontational in nature, I will look very closely to see if there is ANYTHING that would cause me to look further. If I see something, I will press the issue. If I see nothing, then I will complete a field interview report and you go on about your business. I have a job to do; sometimes that job requires that I become somewhat intrusive, but that's the nature of the beast.

The last comment I will make is that it surprises me how much anti-LEO sentiment there is on this board. Like I said, courtesy and respect goes both ways. If a person starts to vent on me, I will listen--chances are, they have had a bad day, and my stop was the last straw for them. Hey--we're all human--and if I can understand that, maybe you should too.

Guess I'm done with this thread, and the bash fest that is sure to follow. Y'all have a good one.

 

[hoppinglark]

It's not Anti-LEO, its Anti-LEO on a power trip, who wants to yell and scream at someone when they ask, what moving violation they commited.

There is no excuse for something like that, threatening to put someone in jail for self proclaimed "made up reasons" is completely unacceptable.

 

[FuzzyBunny]

Are you completely exempt from self-defense in a situation like that?

In Texas you used to be able to defend yourself from the police.
They passed a "cop killer" law a few years back that comes with a death penalty.

So if an officer comes in and kills your dog then rapes and kills your wife and daughter you can not shoot him. You can but they will send you to death row! No, I can't state the exact law but I remember when it was passed in the 90s. I'm glad our state law makers only meet once every 2 years!

FuzzyBunny

 

[RoadkingLarry]

Why is it anytime a "bad apple" gets put on display the thin blue line comes out in force to decry all the cop bashing?

If the police would police themselves we would not see near as much of tis kind of crud.

It is my position that darn few of these "bad cops" just appear out of nowhere. I believe that every last one of them had at least a few fellow officers and supervisors that knew what they were capable of that had on more than one occaision looked the other way to spare a brother officer.

IMO any law enforcment personnel that knowingly allows a fellow officer to get away with ANY "dirty" activities whether it is just being an outrageous SOB like what was shown in the video or worse is just as dirty as the original bad cop.

 

[pax]

Powderman ~

Thanks for posting your usual calm, thorough reasoning. You're a credit to the uniform.

I watched the video a couple of times and cannot understand why this particular cop wasn't fired the second his chief saw it. His conduct was utterly unprofessional and I can think of no reasonable excuse for it.

pax

 

[ziadel]

Guess I'm done with this thread, and the bash fest that is sure to follow. Y'all have a good one

Spreading awareness about blatantly unprofessional and borderline criminal activities being perpetrated by a LEO is not bashing.


With that said I'm quite pleased this guy was suspended but he should have been dumped right off the bat.

 

[brerrabbit]

Powderman

As another person that works in an occupation that is more dangerous than an LEO's.

I chose my job. I do not complain or whine about the dangers of the my job or as justification for others in my occupation behaving badly.

If the job is too dangerous, find another.

It may be that the nature of policework is too stressful for some or apeals to the darker nature of others. I do not know and will not comment on it.

In my opinion, even if the guy set the cop up with the camera, the cop played along admirably.

The lesson learned is that with todays technology becoming cheaper, more available and easier to use., LEO's need to be on their most preofessional behaviour because if they behave badly, it may quite likely be seen by many.

 

[Deanimator]

The bottom line is the police are like anyone else. If their behavior isn't monitored and proper supervision applied, they get out of control. The less supervision, and worse, the more preferential treatment, the more out of control they get.

For an example of just how bad it can get, look at the Chicago PD. It's simply descended to a state of nature. It seems that a week doesn't go by that some new crime by police isn't caught on tape.

Where people get REALLY angry is when police and supporters of the police try to make excuses for clearly despicable actions by individual officers, such as the beating of barmaid Carolyna Obrycka. I read a particular Chicago PD oriented blog, and despite the blog owner's denials, there are plenty of defenses of cops who engage in criminal acts as well as attacks on the victims. One cop recently wrote that he didn't care what the public thought of his attacks on the character of victims of several recent assaults by off duty police. Several others attempted to justify robbing alleged drug dealers. If cops really care what the public thinks about them, they can't let statements like that go unchallenged.

I support HONEST cops. In some places, they're mighty hard to find.

 

[roo_ster]

I think the advent of video & audio is a very GOOD THING. All I can say to cheap digital recording devices is, "Faster, please."

Both LEO & non-LEO ought to have them going.

It will help vindicate the LEO doing the right thing and help nail the LEO who is doing the wrong thing. Same for those they interact with.

As to the video in the OP's link, I find it shameful and nauseating. The LEO in the video would have gotten away with it, had there been no video. Also, I wonder if he has put his act on for fellow LEOs?

At one point or another, I have held the #1, #7, and #9 most dangerous jobs, according to the linked list. The top ten did not include my military service, where I did manage to get good & injured. There are good reasons I now find myself jockeying a PC.

 

[Cannonball888]

IMO any law enforcment personnel that knowingly allows a fellow officer to get away with ANY "dirty" activities whether it is just being an outrageous SOB like what was shown in the video or worse is just as dirty as the original bad cop.

Frank Serpico and I agree.

 

[Roccobro]

Why is it anytime a "bad apple" gets put on display the thin blue line comes out in force to decry all the cop bashing?

Because. Look at your post, three after where Powderman says the sergeant in the video was wrong.

It is my position that darn few of these "bad cops" just appear out of nowhere. I believe that every last one of them had at least a few fellow officers and supervisors that knew what they were capable of that had on more than one occaision(sp) looked the other way to spare a brother officer.

And then you say ALL are dirty? Quite a broad brush you paint all cops with.

(At least in CA), if a LE is found to have NOT stopped an illegal action of a fellow officer, or even the minimum report it to a supervisor, that officer is negligent in their duties and can be dealt with anything from a warning up to and including termination. Would I lie for my fellow co-worker that is stealing from the dock when I could lose my income and harm my family's well being? Certainly not. Wearing a badge doesn't change a persons integrity. Some have it, some don't, and some wear a badge and don't.


I still think the sergeant was unprofessional. Not a single post here has been in defense of that mans actions on video... yet someone here defending the profession makes the writer guilty of something. Thats not right man.

Sorry you feel that way, but at least your honest about your insecurity of all police. I cannot fault honesty.


Justin

 

[RoadkingLarry]

And then you say ALL are dirty? Quite a broad brush you paint all cops with

I didn't say all cops are dirty, only those that are and those that allow/enable the dirty cops to continue unchecked. If the shoe fits....

Not a single post here has been in defense of that mans actions on video...

Check Post #22 by brando, he lays it on the kids attitude...

Different US regions have different problems. I'm sure most people and places in the US that view this video see it as just plain insane. I'd like to see this kid try the same stunt in Los Angeles CA. He'd be on the news later while recouping in a hospital. (If you don't regularly watch the LA news or live in the bad parts of CA, you wouldn't begin to understand why)

And this quote by you could be interpreted to imply that you condone the type of behavior seen/heard in the video including assault and physical violence on a otherwise law abiding person who simply wants to be secure in the rights protected by our Constitution.

at least your honest about your insecurity of all police.

I wouldn't consider it insecure, more a matter of awareness of evil...

 

[Deanimator]

(At least in CA), if a LE is found to have NOT stopped an illegal action of a fellow officer, or even the minimum report it to a supervisor, that officer is negligent in their duties and can be dealt with anything from a warning up to and including termination. Would I lie for my fellow co-worker that is stealing from the dock when I could lose my income and harm my family's well being? Certainly not. Wearing a badge doesn't change a persons integrity. Some have it, some don't, and some wear a badge and don't.

That doesn't appear to be the case where I'm from, Chicago. There's widespread criminal behavior in the Chicago PD, but the ONLY way it ever seems to be addressed is if there's video released to the public which embarasses upper management. Recent examples:

The shooting of Michael Pleasance, where Officer Alvin Weems shot Pleasance in the head for no discernible reason, then lied about virtually every aspect of the incident aside from the general location. He served a 30day suspension and was then PROMOTED to detective. While being deposed for a lawsuit against himself and the city, he recently admitted that the shooting was not justified. He's still on the job as a detective.

The Jefferson Tap incident where several off-duty cops beat some businessmen, then waved off other officers who responded to 911 calls regarding the incident.

The beating of 115lb. barmaid Karolyna Obrycka by 250lb. Officer Tony Abbate. Not only the beating, but his attempts at bribery and witness intimidation by proxy were caught on video and or audiotape. Also caught on video were multiple separate instances of preferential treatment shown to Abbate by other officers during one of his arrests and subsequent court dates.

The theft by officers of merchandise recovered after being stolen from railroad cars on railroad property, allegedly captured on railroad security cameras.

The beating of a woman, handcuffed in the back of a squad car by an off-duty police officer, allegedly captured on cellphone and other video.

No doubt, there will be more in the future. It seems at times that the only restraint on the activities of individual Chicago Police Officers is fear of being caught on video. Unfortunately, that keeps happening. Clearly, other officers aren't acting as much of a brake on the activities of their fellows.

Do you have any suggestions? Seriously.

 

[Bryan James]

another media update here in st. Louis on the subject from the local paper
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/EF3667C80165B68086257353001498DC?OpenDocument

here's the text

Officer in trouble over motorist's video in South County
By Patrick M. O'Connell and Georgina Gustin
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
09/11/2007

ST. GEORGE — A car-mounted video camera — more commonly used by police than against them — captured a loud and threatening confrontation in this tiny St. Louis County community that left an officer on suspension and the whole world able to listen in.

The picture doesn't show much, but the audio part of the recording, posted on Google Video and YouTube on the Internet, brought more than 300 protest calls to St. George Police Chief Scott Uhrig.

"I was very displeased when I saw the actions on the video," Uhrig said. "My officers are not trained and taught to act like that."

He put Sgt. James Kuehnlein on unpaid suspension pending further investigation.

Uhrig said the officer's actions were not justified, and he insisted the episode is not representative of his department.

A voice identified as Kuehnlein's can be heard taunting the driver and threatening to jail him on fabricated charges.

The tape, made late last week, was from a camera running in the vehicle Kuehnlein approached, police said.

Brett Darrow, 20, of St. Louis, said he was the driver who recorded the exchange. He posted it online Saturday.

"I wanted everybody to see that this kind of stuff does happen," Darrow said. "I thought if I just go to the chief or whatever, it would just get swept under the rug."

Kuehnlein could not be reached for comment Monday night.

St. George, a municipality of about 1,300, sits along Interstate 55 at Reavis Barracks Road.

In the video, Kuehnlein, a St. George officer for about two years, approaches a young man who was sitting in a parked car about 2 a.m. in a commuter lot near Spokane and Reavis Barracks roads. Kuehnlein asks for identification. When Darrow asks whether he did anything wrong, the officer orders him out of the car and begins shouting.

"You want to try me? You want to try me tonight? You think you have a bad night? I will ruin your night. … Do you want to try me tonight, young boy?"

Darrow says no.

"Do you want to go to jail for some (expletive) reason I come up with?" the police officer says. Later, Darrow says, "I don't want any problems, officer."

"You're about to get it," Kuehnlein is heard saying. "You already started your (expletive) problems with your attitude."

After the officer notices the camera, he says, "I don't really care about your cameras, 'cause I'm about ready to tow your car, then we can tear 'em all apart."

After more than 10 minutes of interaction, Darrow is allowed to go.

Darrow said he was not trying to entrap the officer. He said he pulled into the commuter lot to meet a friend. When the officer asked him for identification, Darrow said he didn't immediately present it because he believes the officer stopped him without probable cause.

Darrow said he installed the cameras in his Nissan Maxima after past run-ins with police. He said he was involved in a physical confrontation in 2005 with an off-duty St. Louis police officer, in a case Darrow said was later dismissed.

Darrow said he plans to meet with Uhrig today to discuss the weekend incident.

Chief Uhrig said Kuehnlein stopped to talk to Darrow because police have received reports of thefts from cars in the area. But, Uhrig said, based on his viewing of the online video, the officer acted inappropriately when he threatened to make up charges, and used a disrespectful tone and inappropriate language.

"We don't do that," Uhrig said. "Someone either violated the law or they didn't. You don't say, I'll lock you up and then come up with why afterward."

Joel Currier of the Post-Dispatch contributed to this report.

[email protected] | 314-863-2821

[email protected] | 618-624-2438

 

[F4GIB]

It is my position that darn few of these "bad cops" just appear out of nowhere. I believe that every last one of them had at least a few fellow officers and supervisors that knew what they were capable of that had on more than one occasion looked the other way to spare a brother officer.

Only the police can clean the unfit officers out of their profession.

So long as they are present in large numbers (and they ARE) they are going to turn off more and more civilians. Trust in the institution of the police is going down and these guys (and COPS/Dallas SWAT, etc. which gives more of us a view of the thugs in action) don't help. The knee-jerk defense (even when the misconduct is caught on video) just makes it less likely that civilians will believe police protests of innocence (like "crying Wolf").

Rogue officers, like the one recently in San Bernardino, CA, can win against the criminal court standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" but they, personally, and all cops, professionally, lose in the court of public opinion where the standard is "credible video." Tho poor always knew police work brings out the worst in many officers, it took me 4 years as a prosecutor to discern it, and now every American is learning the lesson that many cops get off on abuse of power. Certainly the sergeant in St. George, Mo does (BTW, how did he get to be a sergeant?). It's their drug. It is the non-cash benefit that makes their low paying, dangerous, whatever, job worth it to them.

Well, it's not worth it to those of us who have to fear facing one of the thugs every time we encounter an officer. While hoping, of course, that we'll meet one of the many wonderful, self-sacrificing officers instead.

 

[Roccobro]

didn't say all cops are dirty, only those that are and those that allow/enable the dirty cops to continue unchecked.

RKL-I must apologize. Your right. I misread your statement to mean ALL cops, not your intended DIRTY COPS.

I believe that every last one of them...

Although I don't think Brando "layed it on the kids attitude" like you are advertising. I even said the kids attitude and motives looked suspicious for the encounter.

The cop and the young man both had attitudes. If you look at the big picture that cop is putting his life on line everyday? Are you willing to do that?

***********
Yes, I think video and audio recording are helpful in solving crime. I don't think it is changing as much "the nature of police work" as many believe. I too wonder how this cop got his stripes if this is his MO (if it really is his MO and not a severe lapse in judgment). I don't have all the facts so I will wait for the verdict.

Justin

 

[RoadkingLarry]

Quote:
The cop and the young man both had attitudes. If you look at the big picture that cop is putting his life on line everyday? Are you willing to do that?

I already answered that question in post 31.

 

[F4GIB]

Yes, I think video and audio recording are helpful in solving crime. I don't think it is changing as much "the nature of police work" as many believe.

With every video-related FIRING, the message will get out to the "thugs in blue" that the end is coming (not soon enough, though). It would be nice, however, if the cops who claim on the Internet that they are the GOOD ONES helped to clean up their profession. After all, it's their bed that is being crapped in.

 

[Art Eatman]

Including clerical and administrative positions, there are about a million cops/deputies in the U.S. Roughly.

I don't know why anybody expects some sort of perfection from a million people of whatever occupation. 98% good and wondrous cops still means 20,000 no-goods. Unavoidable.

So: You don't like those numbers? Okay, get involved in local politics to keep pressure on local governments to appoint chiefs who will work at weeding out the no-goods. And let local politicos know that they will be held responsible for what their appointees do.

Or, grump around via your keyboard...

Art

 

[F4GIB]

98% is too high. Sorry, but it is. I've had three decades of close experience in a variety of roles and it's taken me from admirer to critic.

In no other occupation can bad apples do so much harm to so many people so often. The work attracts and sustains unsuitable personalities (that's why they have pre-employment psych evals in some departments) as much as it attracts unselfish devotees of the welfare of the weak. And this sub-culture seems to coarsen everyone in it.

Okay, get involved in local politics to keep pressure on local governments to appoint chiefs who will work at weeding out the no-goods. And let local politicos know that they will be held responsible for what their appointees do.

How do you know I'm not? Ask Oleg, you'll be surprised.
Or how do you know that every other concerned THR poster isn't as well?

In the end, only the Police can clean up their own house. It is they who have to stop winking and nodding and start exposing. Peer pressure works both ways. And it's they who will suffer from the spreading social gap between the good citizens and the police.

I suppose you'll close this now.

 

[Deanimator]

I don't know why anybody expects some sort of perfection from a million people of whatever occupation. 98% good and wondrous cops still means 20,000 no-goods. Unavoidable.

The place to look is not across the ENTIRE law enforcement PROFESSION.

It's across individual DEPARTMENTS.

Do a Google search on "Chicago", "Police", and "video" and see what you find. You'd think you were in some third world country.

If the cops in my town committed crimes at the rate the Chicago PD does, there wouldn't be an officer not fired or in jail.

There ARE departments that don't have ANY cops selling drugs, doing home invasions, torturing suspects with electricity or beating up women. As for the ones that DO, some of them pretty obviously don't CARE. Former Chicago PD superintendent Phil Cline was a pretty clear example of that. Unfortunately, between Mayor Daley and the acting superintendent, there isn't one iota of hope for improvement.

 

[TCB in TN]

Although I don't think Brando "layed it on the kids attitude" like you are advertising. I even said the kids attitude and motives looked suspicious for the encounter.

I don't care what the attitude is, even if you suspect someone of something, the language, and the threats to arrest the kids for something "made up" and to rip the camera out of the car are so far over the line that they should be completely indefensible by anyone! The fact that some officers come out and appear to support this particular Scumbag is just disturbing! :banghead: