Why wasn't M1 carbine celebrated like the STG44 or AK47

[rocinante]

It was a short piston design and it came out in 1941, long before German or Russian equivalents.

The 30-30 round is ballistic equivalent to the AK 7.62x39. True it is not a necked down chopped off rifle round but so????

It was lightweight, a mere 5.2 lbs empty. Compact at 36 inches, even more so with paratrooper folding stock.

It had detachable high cap 30 round magazines.

Some versions were full auto.

It was produced by the millions and in active use from WWII to Vietnam.

Is it that they put it in a wood stock and it lacks a pistol grip?

Weight, ballistics, magazine makes it equal to if not better than european stamped receiver "assault rifles". Or was that ease of manufacturing the distinction?

 

[fatcat4620]

The caliber was ineffective for a rifle.

 

[rocinante]

fatcat how so? Every time I read about 7.62x39 the comments are it is so similar to 30-30 it isn't even funny. Last I checked the AK caliber hasn't been a slouch at man killing. Did the 30-30 fail to go bang? Hasn't it taken as many deer as just about any other caliber?

 

[rcmodel]

What folks fail to understand is, it was never intended to be a battle rifle or assault rifle.

It was intended to replace pistols in the rear with the gear.

Unfortunately, it worked so well and was so handy, a whole lot of GI's preferred humping it through the mud instead of a rifle.

rc

 

[jdh]

It better fit the role of PDW than that of Assault Rifle.

 

[dogtown tom]

You are confused

rocinante It was a short piston design and it came out in 1941, long before German or Russian equivalents.

The 30-30 round is ballistic equivalent to the AK 7.62x39.

rocinante fatcat how so? Every time I read about 7.62x39 the comments are it is so similar to 30-30 it isn't even funny. Last I checked the AK caliber hasn't been a slouch at man killing. Did the 30-30 fail to go bang? Hasn't it taken as many deer as just about any other caliber?

The M1 carbine was chambered in .30 carbine.......not .30-30, two COMPLETELY different calibers.

 

[firesky101]

fatcat how so? Every time I read about 7.62x39 the comments are it is so similar to 30-30 it isn't even funny. Last I checked the AK caliber hasn't been a slouch at man killing. Did the 30-30 fail to go bang? Hasn't it taken as many deer as just about any other caliber?

M1 carbines shot .30 carbine not 30-30. .30 carbine out of a rifle has @twice the energy of .357 out of a 4" revolver, but it is no 30-30.

 

[Georgia45cal]

The M1 carbine was chambered in .30 Carbine and not the .30-30 Winchester.

It fired a 110 gr. .30 caliber bullet at around 1,900 FPS. That's not bad, but not anywhere close to the .30-30 which sends a 110 gr. .30 caliber bullet at around 2,700 FPS.

 

[rocinante]

OK so I am mistaken on ballistics. My bad. Still the little rifle had a lot going for it and shouldn't be relegated to almost obscurity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine

A standard .30 carbine ball round weighs 110 grains (7.1 g) and has a muzzle velocity of 1,900 ft/s (580 m/s) giving it 880 ft·lbf (1,190 joules) of energy. By comparison, a .357 Magnum revolver fires the same weight bullet from a 4-inch (100 mm) barrel at about 1,500 ft/s (460 m/s) for about 550 ft·lbf (750 J) of energy, though it is important to note that the .357 bullet is larger in diameter (caliber) and is normally an expanding or hollow-point design.[1] The above comparison is between a full length .30 carbine barrel and a 4-inch barreled .357 handgun.[citation needed]

The .30 carbine was developed from the .32 Winchester Self-Loading used in an early semi-auto sporting rifle; both rounds are comparable to the .32-20 Winchester round used in carbines and revolvers. .30 Carbine sporting ammunition is factory recommended for hunting and control of large varmints like fox, javelina or coyote. The .30 Carbine generates half the muzzle energy of the typical .30-30 Winchester deer rifle round and one-third the energy of the typical .30-06 Springfield big game round. The game laws of several states do not allow hunting big game with the .30 Carbine either by name or minimum muzzle energy allowed.

 

[Georgia45cal]

Indeed, it's a great little carbine. Perfect for the role it was intended to fill.

You can buy them new from Fulton Armory or surplus from the CMP. I wouldn't call it relegated to almost obscurity. New and surplus parts are readily available.

Considering the large numbers of surplus M1 carbines in the market, there's not a lot of incentive to make new ones.

 

[Swing]

Dunno. I think they be the cat's pajamas.

 

[Float Pilot]

While we now take a high nosed view of the classic the 30 caliber carbine for it's lack of stopping power, it certainly served the purpose for which it was intended.

All it had to do was be better than a 1911A1 pistol.

My dad fought in the Pacific during the last year of WWII, then later in Korea.
He readily admits that the M-1 Carbine was not much of a man-stopper, even against half starved Japanese troops who were lucky to weight 100 pounds.
(My dad who was 5'11" weight 145 pounds when he came out of the jungle.)

However one day while we were discussing this, he put it all in a different light.

He said;;;

"" Well first you have to remember that it was over 100 degrees and almost 100% humidity.
Our supplies were often lost during air-drops or contained the wrong items. My boots were rotting off, one eye was swollen shut from some sort of jungle rot and the whole unit had the sh*ts. So the first thing that would be lost down a hill was the mortar base plate, we used a helmet full of sand or mud instead. Then any extra tools you might have strapped to your back, followed by the 30cal machine gun tripod. Soon you were thinking about throwing the B.A.R. over a cliff, we had already wrecked any Thompsons we had so they could be traded for carbines. The Platoon Sgt took my BAR away and gave to to a more recent replacement. He gave me a carbine until I could recover, it was like a dream to carry. Sure it did not kill as well as a Garand, but it worked fine for close range jungle work as it would shoot through most smaller tree trunks.. Plus it let you carry more food and water. We had Aussies working with us and they would wreck their Enfields so they could get an M-1 Carbine from our supply unit. ""

Some where around here I have a photo of my dad as a teenager someplace in the Pacific surrounded by a few other US and some Aussie troops. They all look like scare-crows and they are surrounded by swamp water and giant tree roots.

 

[cfullgraf]

It had detachable high cap 30 round magazines.

In WWII, 15 round magazines were all that were available.

The 30 round magazine and full auto versions (M2 Carbine) came late in WWII (1945 or so).

As rcmodel said, the 30 carbine was meant as a replacement for the 45 auto for rear echelon troops. Easier to train with and more effective to a bit longer ranges. But was also found to be handy so many front line troops carried it.

A folding stock version was made for paratroop use.

The 30 carbine was liked more in Europe than the Pacific during WWII.

The 30 Carbine is not really in the same class as the AK-47 or the StG44 and therefore not really a good comparison.

I agree that the 30 Carbine would be a handy home defense rifle. I would not use my WWII vintage rifles for such and unfortunately post war civilian versions are not reliable enough. Fortunately, the 300 BLK fills the bill nicely.

 

[burk]

I think they never caught on for the same reason AR's took a long time to get accepted in the sporting rifle market. I remember in MI in the 70's and 80's a lot of deer hunters were hunting with those surplus .30 carbine rifles. A lot also found them fairly ineffective as a deer cartridge. For the record the 30-30 has lost favor too compared to the dominance back in the day.

Its interesting how the shooting publics perceptions have changed, for years 30.06 was the most universally accepted hunting cartridge. Remember a whole generation grew up shooting Garlands and 19O3's. The 30 carbine never caught on because unlike the 06, it isn't a great sporting cartridge. The reason AR's started to cross over was the huge increase in coyote populations. They all of the sudden became a viable sporting rifle. They are a supper accurate platform (probably more accurate than the BAR) And now some guys are upping there game with .308's in AR's for big game hunting.

 

[cfullgraf]

You can buy them new from Fulton Armory or surplus from the CMP. I wouldn't call it relegated to almost obscurity. New and surplus parts are readily available.

CMP stocks dried up a couple, three years ago except maybe some collectable carbines put up for auction.

 

[Georgia45cal]

That's unfortunate to hear that CMP supply of M1 carbines has dried up.

 

[SHR970]

It was not a 30-06.
They came out with 15 round mag.s and remained that way throughout most of WWII.
It was not a 30-06.
The M2 (full auto version) came out in late war and not many were issued. The 30 round mag was introduced with this variant.
It was not a 30-06.
Proper tactics were not developed for this weapon for front line use. Many officers deployed men with these as though they were riflemen with Garands. Where the gun would have been useful, they weren't used often, where they were a detriment they were misused too often.
It was not a 30-06.
Soldiers often compared the power of this to a Garand. No contest.
It was not a 30-06.
The basis for the round was typical military. They designed it by committee and told the players they had to design a gun around the specified ammo. The ammo was a round nose design that did not upset and tumble in its target but poked a hole straight through. A decent spitzer design would have made the round a much better stopper.
It was not a 30-06.
A full auto with a paratrooper stock and 30 round mag.s would have made a good gun for urban combat. But the M1A1 was semi auto only and came with 15 round mags.
It was not a 30-06.
The gun was made for 0-300 yards, it was a carbine. It was made to replace a PISTOL for those who's jobs required them to lug a lot of weight (radiomen), NCO's, rear echelon people, cooks, etc.

 

[wally]

Love the handling of the M1 Carbine, dislike the caliber. I find the Mini-14 or Min-30 has all the goodness along with better ammo selection.

 

[M2 Carbine]

My friend likes my Carbine..........
(click on picture)



.....and so did my Wife.

 

[mokin]

It came out a year too soon and with only a 15 round magazine. As stated above, it was intended to replace the 1911 not the M 1 Garand. If it had come with 30 round magazines.....

 

[CornCod]

The M-1 Carbine was a PDW long before anyone thought of that category. It represents a rather unique approach to arming rear-area troops. The only rifle that was a contemporary of the M-1 Carbine that at least somewhat mirrored the rifle's concept was the old Spanish "Destroyer" carbines. Even in this instance the comparison was not entirely apt because the "Destroyers" weren't used by rear-area troops, but police.

 

[Romeo 33 Delta]

I'm a prime candidate for exactly why they created the M1 Carbine. With a M1911A1 I was only passable ... just NEVER was a pistolero. Now, put a M1 Carbine in my hands and I WILL put 15/15 into a man's chest at 100 meters all day long. For my money ... just perfect!

I was a ACAV driver for a portion of my Senior Class Trip in '68 and had a RVAN liberated M2 up top next to the hatch on my M113A1. It was lost the day my track bit the dust. Too bad ... my M3A1 SMG was in the track too!

 

[tahunua001]

the stg44 was not really highly celebrated either. they are highly sought after nowadys but they were heavy heavy beasts in world war 2 and many german soldiers prefered with the MP40 or a bolt action in their hands. the M1 carbine is light, has high cap mags and is fairly accurate but the 30 carbine is a pretty anemic round when compared to many of the other WWII calibers. 303 brit, 8mm, 7.62x54R, 7.92 kurz, 7.7, 6.5(swede and carcano), 30-06 and even 7.62 tokarev were more potent. a lot of guys just liked the longer range capabilities of the garand or the higher rate of fire of the thompsons to the M1C.

 

[Tommygunn]

The STG-44 was an early "assault rifle" and the AK-47 likewise. The AK-47 has been adopted by a great many third world counties.

The M-1 carbine was adopted according to many military historians to replace a pistol (longarms are easier to use effectively) and for officers, and rear echelon.
There's a long line of arguments both for it and against it. One Marine commander stated it was "the ace weapon of the war," and in Pacific Island fighting, which was often close range, it proved effective.
It proved lacking where long range encounters took place -- a lot more of those in europe. The .30 carbine round was developed from the .32 Winchester self-loading round which itself was not a powerhouse.
Because it was designated the "M-1" people couldn't help but compare it to the M-1 Garand. In fact, while the military had used carbines before, they usually used the same round as the issued rifle. The M-1 Carbine was an exception to this.
As some have said it might have been considered a PDW had the concept existed then.
There have also been stories about the round that have proven false. During the Korean War the enemy often wore heavy quilted coats, with multiple layers. Stories of the carbine round failing to penetrate this heavy clothing popped up, but one intrepid army officer dispelled these by going out to a battlefield where the corpses of enemies still lay, and where carbines had been used. He pointed out that they'd been shot with carbines, and in fact the round had not only penetrated that heavy winter jacket but in numerous instances, the body of the enemy soldier as well, and also re-penetrated the heavy quilting as it exited.

What I'd say is the M-1 is pretty effective in close range engagements but not so much in longer range engagements. The early sight on the carbine was not as finely adjustable as the Garand which had the capability for windage adjustments. Only late in the war was the "L" type flip sight replaced with a windage adjustable sight.
Both the STG and the AK use better more powerful ammunition however there remain even better more powerful rounds that are used in modern bolt rifles.

 

[nathan]

If only the .30 carbine is cheaper , id jump on it. I ve shot once and its one heck of a PDW.