Why wasn't M1 carbine celebrated like the STG44 or AK47

[Trebor]

I'm a fan of the M-1 Carbine and, in some ways, it could be argued that it was as much an "assault rifle" as the later MP 44.

However, in my opinion, the MP 44 does deserve greater recognition as a "true" assault rifle than the M-1 Carbine. Here's why:

1. Not select-fire - WWII M-1 Carbines were semi-auto only. One of the definitions of a true assault rifle is that it be select fire. The later Korean era M-2 Carbines were select fire, but that was a later development not available on the original M-1 design. (Also, the M-2 Carbine didn't hold up well to full-auto over time. My understanding is parts breakage, especiall extractors and bolts, was fairly common).

2. Ballistics - The .30 Carbine round was just "so so" as an "intermediate" round. It fired a 110 gr projectile at about 1,900 FPS. The MP 44 fired a 125 gr round at about 2,100 FPS. That means the the MP 44 round was both heavier and faster.

The other issue is the bullet design. The .30 Carbine round uses a relatively short, round nose bullet, which is not as effective as the pointed bullets of the 7.92 Kurz and later AK rounds.

Like I'm said, I'm a fan of the M-1 Carbine, so I'm not even saying I agree with this argument completely. I can just see the reasons why it wasn't as highly regarded as the MP 44 or the later AK 47.

 

[Ignition Override]

Georgia45cal:
The Carbines seem to have sold out at the CMP at least a year ago, if not earlier.

At the show weeks ago in Gwinnett GA, Carbine prices seemed to be fairly high, but I don't know what the average is at our shows near Memphis.

Trebor: Lots of people on the gun websites I read prefer an M-1 Carbine with soft point bullets for home defense.
Seemed to remember a Korean on a store roof with a Carbine, looking down on possible rioters in L.A., but it looks like a Mini 14 (or 30)
on the page "Ask a Korean!".

 

[Kachok]

The 30 carbine was not considered highly effective, it often had difficulty penetrating makeshift armor, never was loved much by the majority of those who used them and hence never caught on like the legendary AK which BTW is alot more powerful and uses a higher SD better penatrating bullet, to compare those two the AK is the clear winner without a doubt, Just a better designed gun and cartrage.

 

[batjka]

M1 is a great rifle. However, it is pretty close ballistically to submachine guns of the day. For example, 7.62x25 round gets close to 2000 fps with 85gr bullet out of PPS-43. Compare that to 110 gr bullet at 1900 fps out of M1. Energy wise we get 754 ft-lbs for PPS-43 and 881 ft-lbs for M1. However, M1 is much more difficult and expensive to manufacture.

As you can see, M1 is noting to rave as compared to competition. It's no assault rifle, which was a break-through in firearm design.

 

[Roadking Rider]

I was hell bent on getting an M1 carbine after I shot my friends. Then one day at the GS a guy was looking at a new 580 mini14 ranch rifle. I asked if I could look at it. It reminded me so much of a M1 Carbine. It was able to shoot the more economical and more powerful and longer range 223/5.56 round,plus it was only $529. After a little thought I walked out the door with it. I really like the new 580 Mini14 ranch rifles. I'm not a big fan of the black rifles. No there not tack drivers but it's more than capable of shooting as good as I needit to in real live situations. I still would like to have a M1 carbine if I could get one at a good price to go with my Garand, but it's not on my top 5 list of guns/rifles I'd like to own as it just doesn't fill a need that I do not already have filled.

 

[Roadking Rider]

Here's a pick of the mini14 with the wooden M1a retrofit handguard. Looks very similiar to a M1 carbine when the scope is not on it.

 

[HoosierQ]

The M1 Carbine was a fine weapon...is still a fine weapon.

My Uncle Bob, still with us, was a veteran of the European theatre...front line combat veteran. Later spent his entire career with the State Department in the Foreign Service. Not a diplomat. Given to very simple, succinct statements based on facts.

My dad, his brother, had bought an M1 Carbine knock off (Universal) that I thought was really cool (I was 12). Uncle Bob came to visit. I asked Uncle Bob if he, who was a staff sargent, carried an M1 Carbine.

Response: "I preferred not to get that close to the Germans so I carried an M1 rifle".

One sentence summed it up for me, I got it and I was only 12. Now today, the universal being gone, I truly covet an M1 Carbine.

 

[Shear_stress]

Why wasn't M1 carbine celebrated like the STG44 or AK47

Because it was used by our troops. We have a better sense of the drawbacks or perceived drawbacks of the weapons we use.

 

[lemaymiami]

I'm a retired cop who always preferred a police shotgun for hot calls... I was unfortunate enough to actually use a popper on one occasion with "dead right there" consequences for the offender (and a full range of unpleasant after effects for the "shooting officer"). I'm long out of police work and don't own a shotgun - but I'd love to have a working 30cal carbine.... With soft nose ammo it's just the ticket for encounters under fifty yards (where most street work actually occurs). It's best characteristics are its quick handling, quick pointing, and sufficient ammo load (if you can't resolve the problem with one or two 15 round mags.... it might be a good idea to withdraw...).

For anyone that doubts my opinion it might be helpful to know that the infamous Miami FBI shootout where so many cops and agents were wounded (and two agents killed...) the primary shooter was badly wounded from the beginning and still used a carbine to do all the damage (his partner was still in the vehicle bleeding out and not part of the action....).

These days with the cost of those old carbines getting a bit high and the availability of the Ruger minis in the same price range -the equation is changing. The Ruger mini-30 tactical model would be my choice if I had to get back in the business of street work.... but that old carbine, in good servicable condition, is still a fine weapon - provided you use it within its capabilities.

 

[nathan]

For nostalgia sake, the M 1 carbine is hard to beat. But cost more to feed. A mini 14 is just more practical.

 

[JustinJ]

The .30 carbine round is far more pistol than rifle or intermediate. In fact there are true handguns that fire the round and out of a carbine the .357 magnum ballistics essentially match the .30 carbine. Its nothing but a pistol caliber rifle.

The .30 carbine does not even begin to compare to the AK47.

 

[MK11]

Jim Cirillo of the famous NYPD stakeout squad was a big fan of the M1 carbine. In one of the books about the stakeout squad, he even goes so far to say that it was a better stopper than the 12 gauge with 00 buck.

The M1 carbine is still a fine personal weapon, although it's been overshadowed by the M4 and Mini 14, which are much easier to acessorize, more powerful and more accurate (at least the AR is). Accuracy on the M1 carbine can also be lacking, since the sights are pretty limited for zeroing.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Out of a carbine length barrel, .357 mag does surpass performance of the .30 Carbine, although .30 Carbine with softnose hunting ammo is a good comparison to the .357 from a 6" to 8" revolver barrel.

I think some of the comparisons of .30 Carbine to 7.62 Tokarev are off.

I use military surplus 7.62x25mm Tokarev ammo to make loads for my Mauser C96. I reload the primed casings with bullets and powder charges appropriate for my Mauser.

To get the empty primed casings, I pull the bullets. I dump the powder charges into primed, resized .30 carbine casings and seat the bullets. I would compare shooting Tokarev powder charge and bullet in M1 carbine to shooting .38 +P in a .357; it is noticeably weaker, and ejection is anemic.

From WHB Smith "Small Arms of the World" on Russian 7.62x25mm:
o 7.62x25 from Tokarev TT33 pistol: 1378 fps
o 7.62x25 from PPSh41 submachine gun: 1640 fps
WHB Smith listed the "hot" Czech M48 7.62x25mm:
o 1800 fps from CZ Model 24 SMG barrel
o 1600 fps from CZ vz 52 pistol barrel
These 7.62x25mm loads all used 85gr bullets.

I think 2000 fps for 7.62x25 is overly optimistic for the usual military loads. Although some modern commercial loads are pretty hot according to factory ballistics:
Sellier&Bellot S&B
o 7.62x25 85gr bullet 503 mps (1630 fps) from 120mm 4.8 inch barrel
Prvi Partizan PPU Serbia
o 7.62x25 Tokarev 85gr bullet 525 mps (1706 fps) from 250mm 10 inch barrel.
o 7.63 Mauser 85gr bullet 460 mps (1495 fps) from 150mm 6 inch barrel.

Ballistics:
Ammunition        Gun   Bullet  Velocity  Energy
7.62x25mm Russian TT33   85 gr  1378 fps   358 ft/lb
7.62x25mm Russian SMG    85 gr  1640 fps   570 ft/lb
7.62x25mm Czech   CZ52   85 gr  1600 fps   483 ft/lb
7.62x25mm Czech   SMG    85 gr  1800 fps   611 ft/lb
.30 Carbine       M1    110 gr  1950 fps   929 ft/lb

The .30-30 (170gr, 2220 fps, 1860 ft/lb) and the 7.62x39 (123gr, 2,400 fps, 1529 ft/lb) are roughly twice as powerful. A real rifle cartridge like .30-06 is easily three times as powerful as the .30 Carbine.

 

[batjka]

M1 has an 18" barrel length.

PPS 43 has a 10" barrel length.

Put an 18" barrel on PPS 43 and you will have comparable velocities. People have reported velocities arnd 2000 fps out of carbine-length barrels in 7.62x25.

 

[Bushpilot]

deleted

 

[Ar180shooter]

It was a short piston design and it came out in 1941, long before German or Russian equivalents.

The 30-30 round is ballistic equivalent to the AK 7.62x39. True it is not a necked down chopped off rifle round but so????

It was lightweight, a mere 5.2 lbs empty. Compact at 36 inches, even more so with paratrooper folding stock.

It had detachable high cap 30 round magazines.

Some versions were full auto.

It was produced by the millions and in active use from WWII to Vietnam.

Is it that they put it in a wood stock and it lacks a pistol grip?

Weight, ballistics, magazine makes it equal to if not better than european stamped receiver "assault rifles". Or was that ease of manufacturing the distinction?

The M-1 carbine was a great little carbine, but it was never intended for front line fighting, unlike the AK or STG. The round is somewhat anaemic, and the round nose causes it to slow down rapidly, limiting the effective range to around 100 yards. The STG and AK, on the other hand, have about a 300 yard effective range.

 

[Trebor]

Trebor: Lots of people on the gun websites I read prefer an M-1 Carbine with soft point bullets for home defense.

Actually, that's what we use as well. We have a Aimpoint on a Ultimak on ours. Nice little setup.

Like I said, I'm a M-1 Carbine fan. I just understand why it isn't held to be a true WWII era "assault rifle" like the MP 44.

 

[jmr40]

It was maginally effective in the Pacific against Japanese soldiers at close range wearing only a thin shirt. In Europe where ranges tended to be longer and German soldiers were were wearing heavy winter clothing it was very ineffective at any range.

As someone else said it was really just a hot pistol round even though it was marketed as a rifle round. The later rifles chambered a much more effective intermediate rifle round.

 

[cfullgraf]

Interesting side note, the concept for the light rifle, aka 30 M1 Carbine, began in WWI.

The main battle rifle was too cumbersome in the trenches for some soldiers so the Army began to look at alternatives. Several Winchester Self Loading Rifles were purchased for trials but the war ended before any decision could be made and the idea set aside.

With the onset of WWII, the idea was resurrected and the 30 Carbine was the result.

 

[dogtown tom]

SHR970
It was not a 30-06...
It was not a 30-06...
It was not a 30-06....
It was not a 30-06...
It was not a 30-06...
It was not a 30-06...
It was not a 30-06...

Who said it was?

 

[amd6547]

The carbine was extremely effective in the hands of those who knew how to use it. People like Audie Murphy.
Comparing the Mini 14 to the carbine...I have owned both. In fact, I sold an M1 carbine to finance a Mini 14 I just had to have. It was regretted the first time I took the Mini 14 to the range. The carbine was more accurate at 100yds than the Mini was at 50.
The M1 carbine is lighter, and just feels lively in the hands...it points like a finger for me.
And, as much as a fan as I am of the tokarev pistol, the carbine round outclasses it.
I am a fan of the 5.56mm...but in its natural home, the AR15.

 

[Cosmoline]

If the M1 had been chambered in a shortened, rimless .30-30, and given select fire, then it would have been the first assault rifle. But it wasn't.

It was a fine light weight firearm for close range work, but it didn't introduce a new age in military firearms. So while certainly celebrated and fondly remembered, it wasn't particularly groundbreaking.

\Miami FBI shootout where so many cops and agents were wounded (and two agents killed...) the primary shooter was badly wounded from the beginning and still used a carbine to do all the damage (his partner was still in the vehicle bleeding out and not part of the action....).

That was a Mini-14 firing .223's.

 

[BCRider]

I thought I read where in the European theatre that troops issued the carbine would deliberately bust them or otherwise work out a deal where they could get a regular Garrand.

This is the opposite of what Float Pilot posted from his father serving in the Pacific. But it all seems to make sense given the heat and health conditions found in the Pacific theatre vs the European theatre and the engagement distances that I suspect were typically used in each theatre.

 

[cfullgraf]

I have read that the 30 Carbine was more accepted in Europe that the Pacific mostly due the difficulty of stopping the Japanese soldiers.

But, it was an account of individuals as opposed to some in depth study. Maybe the answer is "it depends".

While not a man stopper, the 30 carbine could put up a volume of covering fire. One reason the assault rifles were developed was many firefights were at shorter ranges, closer to specifications for the 30 carbine round.

I had a friend that was a forward observer in Europe during WWII. He was issued a carbine but decided it was not powerful enough and scrounged a Garand. After lugging it around for a while, he scrounged back a carbine for it's lighter weight.

 

[-v-]

As others have said, the relatively weak stoping power of the carbine versus a rifle round like the 8mm short or the 7.62x39 is one reason for the lack of popularity. The other is it seems that the M1-C was made for a relatively short time. The AK-pattern is still in production, the StG44's claim to fame is first assault rifle. The M1C, while a nice rifle, wasn't anything special or revolutionary - more of a magnum SMG then a rifle. If it fired a Spitzer bullet at say 2400fps it might be a completely different story. But, being more of a magnum SMG, it went the same way that SMGs went post-ww2 - as specialty police or backup arms, but never anything that enjoyed much popularity versus assault and automatic rifles.