Will Striker Fired Pistols w/ Short and Light Triggers Cause More Acc Discharges ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
When you read how almost every pistolaro with a 1911 drops the safety without having to think you need to understand that there really aren't two separated actions.

They aren't two separate actions for a draw. They ARE two separate actions for holstering or other gun handling where there is a desire to affirmatively NOT set the gun off.

Slow, deliberate holstering with 100% attention is something I wish would get pitched as a key part of gun safety.
 
I was almost shot in the foot by a guy who after the load and make ready command in IDPA blasted away while holstering a DAH- DAH - 1911!

Finger on the trigger. Not clearing the gun - that's the majority of accidents.

BTW, studies show that even DA pulls won't stop a stress related or trip and fail pull of the trigger.
 
Slow, deliberate holstering with 100% attention is something I wish would get pitched as a key part of gun safety.
Full agreement there.
 
Another agreement from me. Too many people think that standing on the line and pulling the trigger is where it starts and stops.

There is much to be learned and practiced in handling, manipulation and awareness that many "shooters" are oblivious to.

Just as an example, there was a video posted here of a young lady making some downright phenomenal groups with a handgun. I also notice that when she had a malfunction, the pistol was handed off to the cameraman to clear it for her. She was a shooter, but not a competent user. The same can be said of many people. Too much reliance is put on the gun itself, rather than the user.
 
People always want shortcuts and the easy solutions. They want the magic gun that never has an AD regardless of how its mishandled. Well, you don't get something for nothing! Just keep your trigger finger away the trigger until ready to shoot. If necessary, practice gun handling including holster presentations with a straightened trigger finger thousands of times for weeks on end, until it becomes part of your muscle memory. We are ultimately accountable and responsible for handling our firearms safely, not the gun manufacturers. We don't need more "gadgetized" firearms!
 
Last edited:
Another agreement from me. Too many people think that standing on the line and pulling the trigger is where it starts and stops.

There is much to be learned and practiced in handling, manipulation and awareness that many "shooters" are oblivious to.

Just as an example, there was a video posted here of a young lady making some downright phenomenal groups with a handgun. I also notice that when she had a malfunction, the pistol was handed off to the cameraman to clear it for her. She was a shooter, but not a competent user. The same can be said of many people. Too much reliance is put on the gun itself, rather than the user.

This kind of stuff drives me crazy. I have a friend who has no idea how to operate his Colt Woodsman. It jams all the time because he needs some new magazine springs, and needs to clean the dang thing. Then he can't clear a jam without 5 minutes of fiddling around.

Then there is my dad. If his gun jams, he is lost, and watching him clean it is traumatic. He can't remember how to take it apart or put it back together, and pays no mind to where the muzzle is pointed.

And last but not least, there is my female friend who shoots a Buckmark. When it jams, she stands there holding it like a dirty diaper until her husband clears it for her. Rather than teaching her how to handle and clear the gun, he just gets short with her.

When ever I buy a new gun, I spend weeks in the evening with a cleared and safe weapon sitting in my lap in the evenings, for about an hour before bed. I hold the gun, I manipulate the gun without looking at it. I take it apart and put it back together without looking at it much, and I dry fire practice with a snapcap in the chambers. This develops muscle memory and familiarity.

Trigger mastery, sight alignment, and recoil management are only a few of the aspects of being a good shooter and good gun handler.
 
In safety-oriented industries, a model that is frequently used is called the "Swiss Cheese Model". The idea is that each layer of safety you incorporate into your process is like a layer of swiss cheese with holes in it and these layers of cheese are stacked upon one another randomly. If all the holes line up, then your safety system (or mechanisms) did not prevent the incident from becoming an accident.

To apply that concept to a handgun, you could add each mechanical safety as a layer of cheese. You could probably also argue that all holes are not created equal. Where as a 2lb SA trigger with 1/8" travel may be represented as a large hole in the slice, a 20lb DA trigger with 1" of travel might be a very small hole in the slice.

So in general, the more slices and the smaller the holes, the safer the design. So something like a 1911, I might give three slices: the light, crisp SA trigger would be one slice with a rather large hole, the thumb safety and grip safeties would each get a slice with a relatively small hole. For something like a Glock, I'd give it two slices: one for the blade on the trigger and one for the trigger pull itself which is really a Light Double Action style that I'd give a smaller hole compared directly to the 1911's trigger pull. Overall though, I'd say the three layers provided by the 1911 would still be safer than the two layers provided by the Glock. Anyway, that's just an illustration of how I personally would model it [and yes I'm aware of all the various internal safeties but didn't include them since things like firing pin blocks are really more for dropping the gun].

Just a thought. The world of HES has come up with many pseudo-scientific ways to model risk, but I've always liked the swiss cheese model as it is easy for people to visualize.
 
Are we talking Regular Swiss Cheese or Baby Swiss Cheese? I apologize for being snide.

As an example the Glock incorporates three basic safety features in the design - Trigger Safety, Firing Pin Safety, and Drop Safety. (Apparently that's not safe enough in the opinion of some while others think the design is safe as designed)

Having been in the military when the 1911A1 was the basic issued handgun there is the theory of the lowest common denominator which in essence was the 1911A1 was to be carried with the chamber empty thus we have Swiss Cheese With No Holes.

The problem is the incapable operator with the Negligent Discharge Issue no matter the design features nothing is Idiot Proof.

In all honesty I do like the Swiss Cheese analogy in regards to safety issues.
 
Perhaps some folks would be better off carrying with an empty chamber or perhaps a trigger lock installed while carrying?
I'll take the Glock or my P-7 with less controls, levers, gadgets, etc. K.I.S.S. works very well for me.
 
I think we should be honest with ourselves and admit that a firearm without a manual safety or sporting a "Safe Action" trigger simply doesn't tolerate the same level of improper handling as a revolver or a DA/SA or a pistol that is cocked and locked.
And herein lies the entire point of the Safe Action system. Loaded guns are not safe and one should never become tolerant of improper handling. DAO revolvers are touted as "safe," but in reality, when people get used to guns like this, they tend to be less careful with their trigger finger. This is part of human nature. Gump will keep his finger on the trigger when he sees there are no consequences. When you point it out to him at the range, he will just brush you off and claim he knows what he is doing.

Semiautos handguns are unique for the ability to quickly load and unload them. I have no problems keeping a loaded gun by the bedside without a holster. And without a round in the chamber. And it's a DA/SA gun. I treat all my handguns the same. I don't keep them "hot" unless they're in a holster on my person. If an empty chamber is good enough for the Army, it's good enough for me.

And still I treat the unloaded gun with the same respect. The day I accidentally pull the trigger on an unloaded gun while utilizing an "acceptable level of improper handling" is the day I will start looking into heavier than 5lb triggers. This is one reason I leave my striker-fired guns cocked when unloaded. It's a perpetual test for myself. I am aware of the trigger every time I pick up or handle or holster a gun, loaded or not, safety or no.

Also, note that in the case of a Glock, the trigger guard is freaking humongous. There's no way I would keep an unholstered 1911 around with 1 in the chamber, if there were ANY way for the manual safety to accidentally be flicked off. Like sliding around in a drawer or a console, or something. It is always possible to accidentally get a finger into the trigger guard when picking up a gun. But with a Glock you have to work at it a bit. Any wider and getting your finger onto the trigger would be like slipping on a pair of gloves.
 
Last edited:
I know Tex Grebner is old news. But he is a perfect example of what can happen when you have a lot of little things going on, even in a controlled situation all by your lonesome, let alone in a stressful situation where you have to react to other people and other unknowns.

Holster release, disengage manual safety, finger off trigger until the muzzle is on target. Well, oops, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

A DA/SA gun with a manual safety can be in 5 pertinent states.
1. unloaded with the safety on
2. unloaded with the safety off
3. loaded with the safety on and hammer down
4. loaded with the safety off and the hammer down
5. loaded with the hammer cocked and the safety off.

A 1911 can be in 4 different pertinent states
1. unloaded with the safety off
2. loaded with the hammer down and safety off
3. loaded with the hammer back and safety on
4. loaded with the hammer back and safety off
*bonus, can be unloaded with the hammer back and the safety on/off.

A Glock can be in two pertinent states:
1. unloaded
2. loaded

For a gun that is meant to be handy, a last ditch response, and to be carried in a holster, 2 states might be enough to bother with.
 
There are no accidental discharges, only negligent ones, assuming the gun is not the culprit, which 99.9999999% of the time, it's not.

Calling it what it is can help us eliminate them.

The best safety is between your ears :)
 
There are no accidental discharges, only negligent ones, assuming the gun is not the culprit, which 99.9999999% of the time, it's not.

Calling it what it is can help us eliminate them.

The best safety is between your ears

And history has proven over millennia that people are far from being 99.9999999% perfect, and never will be.
 
GLOOB wrote,
Also, note that in the case of a Glock, the trigger guard is freaking humongous. There's no way I would keep an unholstered 1911 around with 1 in the chamber, if there were ANY way for the manual safety to accidentally be flicked off. Like sliding around in a drawer or a console, or something. It is always possible to accidentally get a finger into the trigger guard when picking up a gun. But with a Glock you have to work at it a bit. Any wider and getting your finger onto the trigger would be like slipping on a pair of gloves.
Lets suppose we were in a room and you needed to throw me a Glock with a loaded chamber. Would it be safer for my to try and catch it or just let it hit the ground and then pick it up?

Same scenario, but the gun is a cocked and locked 1911 with a round chambered. Is it safer to catch the 1911 than the Glock? I think it is.
 
Lets suppose we were in a room and you needed to throw me a Glock with a loaded chamber.
So now we are juggling guns??? Seriously???
I'd just slide either one across the floor, 1911 port side up of course.:rolleyes:
 
So now we are juggling guns??? Seriously???
Illustrating how little the "trigger guard is freaking humongous" argument made by Gloob adds to safety compared to having a thumb safety and grip safety.
 
I don't think there is any doubt that this occurs. I generally call them Negligent because I have never personally had an "accidental" discharge with a pistol.
The more safeties the gun has the more "safe" the gun will be but you can still shoot your foot off with a California compliant gun with 16 safeties.
My EDC has a thumb safety. I practice with the gun so that sweeping the safety is a part of the muscle memory under stress. I know people that carry a lot of different ways. One guy a few weeks ago had an ND sitting in front of a store with a derringer. Somehow the trigger caught on something and the .38 blew a hole in his pants pocket and ricocheted off the pavement. I wasn't there but nobody was hurt and two witnesses swear he didn't have the gun out when it went off.
 
The news today has the lawyer for the IA that shot the young woman in CA claiming it was an accident (the gun just went off of course) now it's determined that it belonged to a Fed LEO.
Love to see how that is recreated in court.
 
...now it's determined that it belonged to a Fed LEO.
The gun?

I wonder how he came into possession of the Fed LEO's gun? Were they roommates in "Sanctuary City" San Francisco and he just happened to borrow it for personal protection?
 
Reading some comments, I have decided that I'd be happy going to the range with some of you. Others, I'd rather not be in the same county if you have a loaded gun, because you lack basic gunhandling skills and common sense.
 
There are die-hards on both sides who seem to have myopic vision; only being capable of extolling the virtues of their chosen method without the ability to see the downsides.

Many Glock advocates unequivocally state that it is purely the owner's fault if they have an ND with a Glock (Which I don't disagree with by the way) but then in the next sentence, claim that they wouldn't feel safe carrying something like a 92FS because they accidentally flip the safety either on or off when racking the slide or that they just can't be accurate making that transition from the first shot to the rest etc... Isn't that just operator negligence as well? Using the same standard, it most certainly is.

On the other side, there is little arguing with the fact that the amount of time it takes to draw and shoot can be substantially lowered when there isn't a manual safety to disengage.

People go back and forth on these topics with 100% conviction that they are right and the other side is wrong. That just isn't the case, no matter what you have been told or even what you have experienced in training. There are pros and cons to both. You come to your own conclusions and go with the option that YOU are comfortable with but I just don't see why the one side has to be wrong for the other to be right.

I have no statistics to back this up and this is my own humble opinion but I will be willing to bet that people carrying firearms with manual thumb safeties statistically take much more time to be able to draw and shoot than those carrying guns with a trigger safety only. Having said that, I have absolutely no doubt that gun owners who carry guns with a trigger safety alone have a much higher rate of ND's than those carrying.

In any argument, to maintain intellectual honesty, you really have to hold your own beliefs to the same level of scrutiny as the other side.
 
On the other side, there is little arguing with the fact that the amount of time it takes to draw and shoot can be substantially lowered when there isn't a manual safety to disengage.

That is simply incorrect. Empirically, verifiably wrong. The majority of the world's fastest competitive shooters use guns with safeties. Because the safety is taken off concurrently with other things happening during the draw stroke, it does not add a single microsecond of time. Zero. ZERO. This is not an exaggeration. This is a literal statement of truth.

Asking how much time taking off a (ergonomically-sensible) safety adds to the draw stroke is like asking how much time listening to the radio in your car adds to your commute. It's happening while you drive, so it adds nothing.

There may be other disadvantages to a manual safety, but adding time to draw and fire is NOT one of them.
 
Last edited:
Schwing, you had me agreeing with you with the personal responsibility thing, but lost me when you got to …

...I will be willing to bet that people carrying firearms with manual thumb safeties statistically take much more time to be able to draw and shoot than those carrying guns with a trigger safety only.

As ATLDave points out, some of the fastest shooters in the world use a gun with a thumb safety (1911, CZ/CZ clone, etc.) and are not slowed down at all.

Edit to add: Miami Vice scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA-xIssgT-o
 
Last edited:
(twitching index finger)
THIS is my safety.

The only han'gun with a safety that I have is a 1911, and I almost never shoot the thing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top