Will this make the 300 Blackout obsolete?
- Thread starter Owen Sparks
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RhinoDefense
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The point of the .300 BLK is improved x39 ballistics from an AR. Suppressed only shooting is not the only intention of the 300 BLK. It performs very well with supersonic ammunition. Think of supersonic 300 BLK as a 30-30 from an AR15 with performance extending to 300y.
As far as the 300 BLK being fad that dies out in 5 years, the parent of this cartridge, 300 Whisper, has been around 40 years as a wildcat. Now it's been improved and standardized as a SAAMI cartridge with major and small ammunition manufacturers supporting it as well as firearms manufacturers. Nothing has taken off this fast and has been so popular so quickly since the .40 S&W. And people said that wouldn't be around in 5 years either.
As far as the 300 BLK being fad that dies out in 5 years, the parent of this cartridge, 300 Whisper, has been around 40 years as a wildcat. Now it's been improved and standardized as a SAAMI cartridge with major and small ammunition manufacturers supporting it as well as firearms manufacturers. Nothing has taken off this fast and has been so popular so quickly since the .40 S&W. And people said that wouldn't be around in 5 years either.
W/regard to the thread title - no...
As to suppressed operation being the only/primary function of a 300BLK - no to that as well. I didn't purchase a 300 with suppression in mind.
I like a 30 cal option in a mainstream AR platform without having to do the 7.62x51 bit. Especially using a round that takes advantage of components I already have available. I.E. Fired through an upper that will mate with a standard AR lower, use mainstream AR bolts and magazines, can be built from projectiles that also work with my .308 or 30-06, and whose brass is easily formed from my spent .223 or 5.56 cases. A PBR of 200+ yards handles my anticipated typical uses quite nicely.
Nick
As to suppressed operation being the only/primary function of a 300BLK - no to that as well. I didn't purchase a 300 with suppression in mind.
I like a 30 cal option in a mainstream AR platform without having to do the 7.62x51 bit. Especially using a round that takes advantage of components I already have available. I.E. Fired through an upper that will mate with a standard AR lower, use mainstream AR bolts and magazines, can be built from projectiles that also work with my .308 or 30-06, and whose brass is easily formed from my spent .223 or 5.56 cases. A PBR of 200+ yards handles my anticipated typical uses quite nicely.
Nick
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25cschaefer
Member
You can use the same lower and bolt face for the blackout as you use for 223 or any number of other calibers.
dubbleA
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dubbleA
Member
Consumers will dictate the outcome plain and simple........
In my case I went with a suppressed 9 inch 300 blackout. It's sole purpose is for shooting 220 or 240 SMK's sub sonics very quietly with decent accuracy in a small package.
Factory 300 Blackout fodder can be had in all flavors today. While a year ago ammo was hard to find it's getting easier everyday, it's just a mouse click away if you dont handload it. If you handload, there are many components to choose from as it takes a standard .308" bullet.
The 7.62x39 cartridge or AK/SKS platform has never appealed to me nor does an AR in the same.
In my case I went with a suppressed 9 inch 300 blackout. It's sole purpose is for shooting 220 or 240 SMK's sub sonics very quietly with decent accuracy in a small package.
Factory 300 Blackout fodder can be had in all flavors today. While a year ago ammo was hard to find it's getting easier everyday, it's just a mouse click away if you dont handload it. If you handload, there are many components to choose from as it takes a standard .308" bullet.
The 7.62x39 cartridge or AK/SKS platform has never appealed to me nor does an AR in the same.
Saakee
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451 Detonics
Member
The 300 Whisper (and it's copies) was never meant to be a replacement for the 7.62X39, it was designed to shoot a 220 grain projectile at subsonic speed for use with a suppressor and it does that job exceedingly well. Out of a well put together rifle it can achieve accuracy the 7.62X39 can only dream about and Since Remington and Hornady have started making ammo for it I haven't had any issue locating ammo online usually.
If your intent when you go to the range is to make every time you step up to the firing line a "mad minute" and bump fire away full mags the yes...the 7.62X39 is the way to go. However if your intent is to make each round count, to improve your skills, and become a well trained rifleman than you can appreciate the higher quality ammunition even tho it is more expensive.
I'll keep my Whisper...
If your intent when you go to the range is to make every time you step up to the firing line a "mad minute" and bump fire away full mags the yes...the 7.62X39 is the way to go. However if your intent is to make each round count, to improve your skills, and become a well trained rifleman than you can appreciate the higher quality ammunition even tho it is more expensive.
I'll keep my Whisper...
oldpapps
Member
Will this make the 300 Blackout obsolete? Don't care.
"You can get 7.62 x 39 rounds ANYWHERE that sells ammunition.
Try getting .300 Blackout at Wall-Mart."
This matters little if any. I make all of my own stuff, well, not 22RF. So, store bought stuff availability has no bearing for me.
"predict that in 5 years we'll look back at the 300 Blackout as a failed experiment"
I don't think that will be the case. Even if it were to happen, first how would you know? And I would still be cutting down and re-forming my .223/5.56 brass, using the same primers as I do in my .223/5.56 loads, burn the same H110/296 as I do in my .44, pitch the same 110g varmint bullets and 147/150g bullets as my .308/7.62s and 06s. All with the same lower, BCG and magazines as any other AR in .223/5.56.
I don't have or want a SBR or any use for a suppressor, so those are non points.
Besides, I have a long term dislike for things that have been used to shoot at me or mine. No 7.62X39 rounds or weapons for me. To each their own. All of this super cheap ammo and weapons will dry up just like the Mausers and SMLEs of years past. (I don't do Mausers as well.)
So far I'm happy with my play toy .300 BlackOut. I think it will fill all of the nitch that I hoped it would. And it is fun.
"You can get 7.62 x 39 rounds ANYWHERE that sells ammunition.
Try getting .300 Blackout at Wall-Mart."
This matters little if any. I make all of my own stuff, well, not 22RF. So, store bought stuff availability has no bearing for me.
"predict that in 5 years we'll look back at the 300 Blackout as a failed experiment"
I don't think that will be the case. Even if it were to happen, first how would you know? And I would still be cutting down and re-forming my .223/5.56 brass, using the same primers as I do in my .223/5.56 loads, burn the same H110/296 as I do in my .44, pitch the same 110g varmint bullets and 147/150g bullets as my .308/7.62s and 06s. All with the same lower, BCG and magazines as any other AR in .223/5.56.
I don't have or want a SBR or any use for a suppressor, so those are non points.
Besides, I have a long term dislike for things that have been used to shoot at me or mine. No 7.62X39 rounds or weapons for me. To each their own. All of this super cheap ammo and weapons will dry up just like the Mausers and SMLEs of years past. (I don't do Mausers as well.)
So far I'm happy with my play toy .300 BlackOut. I think it will fill all of the nitch that I hoped it would. And it is fun.
Here's your problem-- 5 billion ARs chambered in 5.56 with the potential of .300blk compatibility versus a single company supplying a unique line of modded ARs for 7.62. Moreover, I'd be willing to bet the design is propriatary and patented, ensuring you won't see wide spread distribution.
It's not a matter of finding .300blk in walmart (which is convenient, but hardly Sportsman's warehouse) it's a matter of rifles in service. Also, the price for the new, unique platform. Don't get me wrong, it's a swell idea, but it's not going to spontaneously kill off .300blk by merely existing.
It's not a matter of finding .300blk in walmart (which is convenient, but hardly Sportsman's warehouse) it's a matter of rifles in service. Also, the price for the new, unique platform. Don't get me wrong, it's a swell idea, but it's not going to spontaneously kill off .300blk by merely existing.
A few issues with the x39. One, it is not designed to be an accurate cartridge. The .300 BLK is. The .300 is also available in subsonic. The x39 is as well, just not as proliferated.
Two, that is a proprietary lower. The Blackout uses standard everything (excepting the barrel of course).
Three, the reason the AR was made to shoot 5.56 and the reason that 5.56 isn't tapered a la x39 is that american military rounds have traditionally been made long and skinny (7.62x51, .30-06, et al). It is more conducive to accuracy and is easier to store/carry (magazines are straighter, stripper clips are straighter, etc.) this also makes the spring geometry of the magazine more straightforward.
Four, an AR-15 upper is still limited in size. there just isn't that much room for a big fat round like the x39 (on the bolt face, you run out of room for lugs fast).
If you want cheap, soviet rounds in an AR, get a 5.45 from Spikes. If you want to shoot x39, buy an AK.
If you want x39 ballistics in an AR, buy .300 blackout and a .22 upper for training.
Two, that is a proprietary lower. The Blackout uses standard everything (excepting the barrel of course).
Three, the reason the AR was made to shoot 5.56 and the reason that 5.56 isn't tapered a la x39 is that american military rounds have traditionally been made long and skinny (7.62x51, .30-06, et al). It is more conducive to accuracy and is easier to store/carry (magazines are straighter, stripper clips are straighter, etc.) this also makes the spring geometry of the magazine more straightforward.
Four, an AR-15 upper is still limited in size. there just isn't that much room for a big fat round like the x39 (on the bolt face, you run out of room for lugs fast).
If you want cheap, soviet rounds in an AR, get a 5.45 from Spikes. If you want to shoot x39, buy an AK.
If you want x39 ballistics in an AR, buy .300 blackout and a .22 upper for training.
Huh, weren't we talking how the 6.8SPC II was going to render .223/5.56 and 7.62x39 obsolete and confine them to the annals of firearms history only a few years ago? How the 6.8SPC gave the "punch" of the 7.62x39 with the ballistics of a 5.56? Sure the 300BLK is interesting and everyone is going to be super excited about it, for the next two or three years, until the next caliber comes out that is AR friendly and "totally trounces everything into the ground! The NEW Wave in the AR!!" and puts the 300blk back on the back shelf along with he 6.8SPC 30 Remington AR, 6.5 Grendel, and all the other niche calibers.
kfgk14: While it may be true that a strait-walled round is easier to carry, it is also intrinsically less reliable in a firearm. Additionally, straight magazine is OK, if you plan to have maybe 20 rounds max in a magazine, after that a curvature is needed to ensure reliability. As I am sure you are aware, one of the causes of Pmag reliability is that they have a continuous internal curvature to them.
As for strait walled being more accurate? Not sure where you get that. Accuracy comes from consistency. Good chamber, good rifling, and consistent bullet and powder weights give you accuracy. For the best powder burn consistency you want a short fat case. Look at the latest crop of super-short magnums where the brass looks almost like a baloon.
kfgk14: While it may be true that a strait-walled round is easier to carry, it is also intrinsically less reliable in a firearm. Additionally, straight magazine is OK, if you plan to have maybe 20 rounds max in a magazine, after that a curvature is needed to ensure reliability. As I am sure you are aware, one of the causes of Pmag reliability is that they have a continuous internal curvature to them.
As for strait walled being more accurate? Not sure where you get that. Accuracy comes from consistency. Good chamber, good rifling, and consistent bullet and powder weights give you accuracy. For the best powder burn consistency you want a short fat case. Look at the latest crop of super-short magnums where the brass looks almost like a baloon.
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wally
Member
I guess you missed this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=659597
Now that I have a 7.62 suppressor and an SBR AR lower, the .300 Blackout suddenly looks a whole lot more interesting to me!
The fact you can "recycle" one of your ARs into a .300blk with only a barrel change (hardly rocket science with the AR) makes the entry price about a low as possible.
Owen Sparks
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Does anyone know what happened to the Remington .30 AR or is it the same cartridge?
wally
Member
The .30 RAR is based on the Bushmaster .450, its a rebated rim design introduced in 2008, never really took off.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/10/remington-introduces-new-30-remington-ar-cartridge/
I think .300blk has already blown it away in terms of 3rd party interest.
451 Detonics
Member
The 30 Remington AR suffered from a fatal flaw, there isn't any cheap parent brass for wildcatters and reloads to make brass from, this is the advantage the 300 Whisper (and copies) has, there is tons of cheap .223 brass for conversion laying around. When it comes to the Remington round, and the .450 as well, the brass was almost as much as the loaded ammo.
millertyme
Member
Reminds me of a few other novel and fairly unsuccessful endeavors to increase the AR's potential:
6.5 Grendel
6.8 SPC
.450 Bushmaster
.458 SOCOM
.50 Beowolf
Then there's the .30 RAR. The round has its merits, but it applies to so few people that no amount of advertising and hype will get it to catch on when people look at the economics of getting into it. Sure, it's not all that expensive (or difficult) to rebarrel your AR in .300BLK, but the cost of ammo alone will fail to justify doing so for any real purposes. It will remain an obscure chambering that only a few will keep.
6.5 Grendel
6.8 SPC
.450 Bushmaster
.458 SOCOM
.50 Beowolf
Then there's the .30 RAR. The round has its merits, but it applies to so few people that no amount of advertising and hype will get it to catch on when people look at the economics of getting into it. Sure, it's not all that expensive (or difficult) to rebarrel your AR in .300BLK, but the cost of ammo alone will fail to justify doing so for any real purposes. It will remain an obscure chambering that only a few will keep.
Not a chance of that. 30 caliber is very desirable to so many people, and AR15s are now the most popular rifle. 300 BLK is the best way to do 30 caliber in an AR. Now that it is out, and over 100 companies are supporting it, it already is popular. The Barnes ammo sold out in 6 hours at midwayusa.
Normal full power ammo is by far the most common use for it. A 30 caliber AR15 - as simple as that. Subsonic is a distant second side benefit to some people.
Weird. How so? Ammunition is available from Atlanta Arms, Arnold's Ammo, Barnes, Black Hills, BVAC, CMMG, Cor-Bon, Custom Reloads of Dallas, Double Tap, Gunn, Hornady, Hunting Shack, Lehigh Defense, McCourt Munitions, Remington, RUAG, One Shot, PNW Arms , Profire Arms & Supply, Raven Armament Company, Red Star Ammunition, Right 2 Bear Ammo, Sheepdog Ammo, Silver State Armory, Southern Ballistic Research, Southwest Ammunition LLC, Summit, The Bullet Works, Top Notch Tactical, Ultra Tech (Australia), and Wilson Combat.
You say this every chance you get, but it is revisionist history to call the 300-221 or 300 Fireball a copy of the Whisper as they predated the Whisper. I have posted photos of 30 caliber 223s from 1969 and you have seen them, but keep on commenting. SSK's main contribution was making an AR run subsonic and then promoting it to keep it popular. No doubt, a very significant contribution.
While the 300 AAC Blackout came out well after the Whisper and shares the same concept, it brings to the table several things:
1. SAAMI standard, so anyone can make guns or ammo royalty-free.
2. Works from most 5.56mm brass.
3. Commercial ammo that works reliably in normal magazined with no need to modify them to enjoy full capacity.
4. Commercial ammo / guns which work both subsonic and supersonic with no requirement for adjustable gas systems.
5. Cheap brass and ammunition prices are 1/4 the price of Whisper ammo from two years ago.
6. Longer throat than the tightest Whisper chamber, so supersonic can be loaded a little hotter.
Those cartridges all have some great uses, but do require special bolts and magazines and/or have reduced capacity. 300 BLK has no such problem. Also 300 BLK ammo is way cheaper - $11 a box now.
The cost of ammo may be more than Russian 5.45mm ammo, but compared to other wildly-popular 30 caliber rounds, such as 30-30, it is cheaper.
Tons of people love 30 cal. And it is the cheapest 308-bullet cal AR15 solution (aside from 0.311 Russian-bore solutions).
Millions and millions of rounds of 300 BLK ammo are being sold already, and the guns only just started being available - so it will only get bigger.
I can't follow. Can you please explain in another way what you mean?
armarsh
Member
If you mean that vendors are discounting 300BLK to get rid of stock, you could not be more wrong. They can't build them fast enough and if anything are raising prices a little to lower demand.
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