Wilson Combat EDC X9 1911

[Coal Dragger]

By battery of tests I was getting more at something along the line of multiple shooters of varying skill levels using different pistols to shoot a variety of skill based tests try to measure the affect of equipment choice on performance. For example have them all shoot tests requiring good recoil control and sight tracking like a bill drill, require all "A" zone hits for recorded times. Another test could be off hand accuracy at 10, 15, 25, and 50 yards on targets with scoring rings.

Any pistol that jammed due to a weapon or magazine related malfunction would be heavily penalized.

The goal of the test would be determining a correlation, if any existed, between weapon price and actual shooter performance.

 

[Hangingrock]

The goal of the test would be determining a correlation, if any existed, between weapon price and actual shooter performance.

I observe individuals at different shooting venues. If one shoots as an example Bullseye at a shooting facility you'll seldom see other individuals at the 50Yd line unless the facility is dedicated to that shooting venue. Most handgun shooters that I've witnessed at a shooting facility with a membership of over 700 members shoot at distances considerably shorter in range with 25Yd being considered long range by the multitudes.

At the facility previously mentioned different training bays the distances to the back stops are in excess of 25Yds but not 50Yds. With reactive targets rebound becomes a safety issue so there are constraints how close is close with in safety parameters (then there is the material hardness specs). If we can define "The Average Shooter" then the shootings distances change. For substadial number of shooters long range is in access of 3 to10 yards.

 

[tarosean]

By battery of tests I was getting more at something along the line of multiple shooters of varying skill levels using different pistols to shoot a variety of skill based tests try to measure the affect of equipment choice on performance. For example have them all shoot tests requiring good recoil control and sight tracking like a bill drill, require all "A" zone hits for recorded times. Another test could be off hand accuracy at 10, 15, 25, and 50 yards on targets with scoring rings.

Any pistol that jammed due to a weapon or magazine related malfunction would be heavily penalized.

The goal of the test would be determining a correlation, if any existed, between weapon price and actual shooter performance.

I think it will be next to impossible to achieve valid results. It takes most people a bit of time to adjust to a new platform and its quirks. Even the best competition shooters in the world dont jump between platforms as quickly..
Course when a majority of the top 20 USPSA Production shooters are shooting the same gun or clone of same gun. That could give you a clue as to what is "close" to the best on the market as for performance.
However, just because it excels in competition doesn't mean you want to walk around with 5lbs strapped to your hip in your day to day activities. Just as you wouldnt likely want to drive an F1 car to work everyday.

The best all out performance gun in my safe is a CZ Tactical Sports with CZC mods. while it only costs about 2k after mods. It is a better performance gun than my hi dollar 1911's. Butttttt it darn near weighs as much as two of em strapped together and is as big as a MK23.

 

[Coal Dragger]

If you had paid attention to an earlier post, I proposed this test for G19 sized pistols. I know you love to argue for the sake of it, so I understand your reluctance to actually consider or read anything that might interfere with your argument. At any rate I pretty much narrowed down the category to compact autos suitable for concealed carry.

Throwing all sorts of sizes and specialized race guns into the mix would be stupid. Which is why I specified a more narrow scope earlier. Pay attention please.

 

[tarosean]

Throwing all sorts of sizes and specialized race guns into the mix would be stupid.

USPSA Production is not Race guns. These are production guns anyone can buy off the shelf.

As for 19 sized? Why compromise? Your VP9 is the same size as a 17

 

[Coal Dragger]

I observe individuals at different shooting venues. If one shoots as an example Bullseye at a shooting facility you'll seldom see other individuals at the 50Yd line unless the facility is dedicated to that shooting venue. Most handgun shooters that I've witnessed at a shooting facility with a membership of over 700 members shoot at distances considerably shorter in range with 25Yd being considered long range by the multitudes.

At the facility previously mentioned different training bays the distances to the back stops are in excess of 25Yds but not 50Yds. With reactive targets rebound becomes a safety issue so there are constraints how close is close with in safety parameters (then there is the material hardness specs). If we can define "The Average Shooter" then the shootings distances change. For substadial number of shooters long range is in access of 3 to10 yards.

Yeah I'm familiar with the "average" ability of most shooters to stretch a pistol beyond the 10 yard line. Pretty sad really, and most of them will never push beyond their comfort zone. Not that it would do them any good, 95% of them can't figure out how to press the trigger strait back without moving the sights. "El Snatcho" defeats them every time, or maybe they just really love shooting low and left (assuming a right handed shooter).

Even in a class with experienced shooters I took last year, once it was time to stop hosing down targets at 7 yards doing mechanics drills, El Presidente's, and long gun to side arm transitions for some of them the wheels fell off. Pat McNamara had us shooting out to 50 yards because that's how deep the range was. I practice out to 50 yards with my carry gun, and I shot competitive bullseye in college so this wasn't a big deal to me, there was some groaning from the other students. Evidently shooting one handed out to 50 yards is not something they were anticipating or training for. They all put their big boy pants on and did it anyway, though for some of them it was a bit humbling. Observing results showed that of the students the guys shooting VP9's and a SIG P320 did measurably better on this course of fire than the Glock crowd. We only had one 1911 in class and the fellow running it acquitted himself well too, but he was an old guy and like me a former Marine... so at some point he was taught how to use those pesky sights. Mac shot too with his rather non stock Glock and shot very well. So lot boils down to the Indian and not the arrow.

 

[Coal Dragger]

USPSA Production is not Race guns. These are production guns anyone can buy off the shelf.

As for 19 sized? Why compromise? Your VP9 is the same size as a 17

The VP9 is kind of in between a 19 and a 17. It is very tough to equal the packaging efficiency of a Glock 19. I just happen to run the VP9 pretty much as well as a G19 for "go fast" stuff, and the HK is easier for me to shoot at longer distances well. So I put up with the slightly larger dimensions and slight increase in weight. There are some other pistols I'd love to try in the same size range like a CZ P10C, or P07, and I also would love to lay my mits on a Sphinx SDP Compact.

 

[tarosean]

The VP9 is kind of in between a 19 and a 17.

I've owned em all, definitely more 17 sized.

VP9 vs. 17


***I sold the VP9 imediately after my first match with it. Even though, I initially thought it was the gun to replace my Glocks... Unfortunately, when I really pushed the envelope with it. It wasn't conductive to my high grip and shooting fast. I am not going to change my grip for one particular gun out of dozens and dozens. so off it went.

 

[Hangingrock]

in class and the fellow running it acquitted himself well too, but he was an old guy and like me a former Marine... so at some point he was taught how to use those pesky sights. .

August 1964 Parris Island familiarization firing 1911A1 part of the recruit training. Viet-Nam 1965 MOS dictated 1911A1. Combat experience what generations learned before me the 1911A1 as a primary is better as a supplement to a rifle.

That aside accuracy standards for concealed weapon carries and their weapon of choice would be in my opinion a grouping inside a 6in circle accuracy standard, rapid fire in a compressed time period at a distance of 3 to 10 yards is probably more realistic than lets use 50 yards as an example.

 

[Balrog]

I own 2 Wilson Combat 1911s, one is a 45 from around 2000, and the other is a 9mm from 2016. Both have excellent fit and finish and certainly convey a pride of ownership. Both shoot more accurately than any of my Sigs, Glocks, and Coltsn from a rested position. The Wilsons are 100 percent reliable, but then so are my Sigs, Glocks, and Colts.

I would note however, that as soon as I begin shooting more practical drills than bench rest, the accuracy advantage of the Wilsons go away. Under the pressures of time and movement, there is no practical difference in the accuracy of a Wilson or a Glock in my hands.

My bottom line is that for pride of ownership, beauty, fit and finish, and range accuracy, the Wilsons are superior.

For practical and defense shooting, it doesn't matter if I have a Glock, Sig, Colt, or Wilson.

 

[Coal Dragger]

I've owned em all, definitely more 17 sized.

VP9 vs. 17
View attachment 372529

***I sold the VP9 imediately after my first match with it. Even though, I initially thought it was the gun to replace my Glocks... Unfortunately, when I really pushed the envelope with it. It wasn't conductive to my high grip and shooting fast. I am not going to change my grip for one particular gun out of dozens and dozens. so off it went.

Riding the slide release and not getting lock back on an empty mag?

 

[JR24]

Riding the slide release and not getting lock back on an empty mag?

Hey, thats me and Sigs!

 

[tarosean]

Riding the slide release and not getting lock back on an empty mag?

Yes sir, that was a issue. However, my biggest gripe was the trigger guard itself. It wasn't allowing me a good index (as in repeatable point for me).. Ive owned a number of HK's in the past but this one was different than the other HK's Ive owned..
When a hundredth of a second count.. It was No Bueno for me..

But that is really what its about... what works best for you under speed, under pressure.
There are numerous guns I wouldnt give 10 cents for, yet the internet raves about em.. course the opposite is true too... I like some guns that the internet loathes.
damned if you do, damned if you dont.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Hey, thats me and Sigs!

You and me both man.

My wife has a P320, and I have a P226 X5. Have the same issue with both when my thumbs get too high and I bear down on the frame in rapid fire.

 

[JR24]

You and me both man.

My wife has a P320, and I have a P226 X5. Have the same issue with both when my thumbs get too high and I bear down on the frame in rapid fire.

I had been shooting my new to me P229 a bunch lately and switched to my Glock 17 and got surprised when the slide actually locked back.

 

[Hangingrock]

What I have witnessed over the decades, you can't buy competency. There are individuals that fail to realize that its the Indian and not the arrow. In capable hands there is a difference. In my day Jim Clark made some of the best Bullseye 1911 series pistols available but the individual shooter had to be up to the task. If not the equipment made little or no difference. This is what I see when people talk $$$$ Wilson as opposed to a Glock, S&W and etcetera in defensive shooting applications. Its better to have a G17 or MP9 and acquire training plus range time, thus better $$$$ value.

 

[tarosean]

There are individuals that fail to realize that its the Indian and not the arrow

Are You trying to tell me my new Jordan shoes will not make me "be like Mike"? adding 3lbs of lead to my Glock wont make me Robert Vogel either? My Valentio Rossi Helmet wont make me ride like him?

 

[Hangingrock]

Are You trying to tell me my new Jordan shoes will not make me "be like Mike"? adding 3lbs of lead to my Glock wont make me Robert Vogel either? My Valentio Rossi Helmet wont make me ride like him?

Yes on all counts!

 

[Balrog]

What I have witnessed over the decades, you can't buy competency. There are individuals that fail to realize that its the Indian and not the arrow. In capable hands there is a difference. In my day Jim Clark made some of the best Bullseye 1911 series pistols available but the individual shooter had to be up to the task. If not the equipment made little or no difference. This is what I see when people talk $$$$ Wilson as opposed to a Glock, S&W and etcetera in defensive shooting applications. Its better to have a G17 or MP9 and acquire training plus range time, thus better $$$$ value.

I have always wondered if the equipment really makes any difference at all when the pressures of real world shooting are upon you. For example, if you are under fire by an attacker, running, behind cover, shooting from improvised positions, etc, do you think a Wilson that shoots 1" at 25 yards from a rest under controlled conditions is really going to matter over a Glock? As an owner of 2 Wilsons, my opinion is, probably not.

 

[tarosean]

For example, if you are under fire by an attacker, running, behind cover, shooting from improvised positions, etc,do you think a Wilson that shoots 1" at 25 yards from a rest under controlled conditions is really going to matter over a Glock?

How good is your grip on that glock?

 

[9mmepiphany]

For example, if you are under fire by an attacker, running, behind cover, shooting from improvised positions, etc, do you think a Wilson that shoots 1" at 25 yards from a rest under controlled conditions is really going to matter over a Glock?

Having put this to the test...both for myself and using several trainees ranging in experience from almost none to thinking they were the rebirth of the Punisher (in other words, almost no real skills or ingrained handgun shooting habits)...I can tell you that my experience has been they they will be more likely to be able to put shots on target with the Glock. It is even more obvious at 3 yards.

In more skilled hands, with better trigger management skills, the balance shifts in the other direction.

 

[Balrog]

Having put this to the test...both for myself and using several trainees ranging in experience from almost none to thinking they were the rebirth of the Punisher (in other words, almost no real skills or ingrained handgun shooting habits)...I can tell you that my experience has been they they will be more likely to be able to put shots on target with the Glock. It is even more obvious at 3 yards.

In more skilled hands, with better trigger management skills, the balance shifts in the other direction.

How much difference was seen in skilled hands?

 

[9mmepiphany]

When shot by more skilled shooters, the balance tips in the direction of the platform that shooter is more familiar with.

Glock shooters shot Glocks better, 1911 shooters shot 1911s better. Generally Glock shooters could shoot faster and more accurately with unfamiliar platforms, like a DA/SA SIG or Beretta 92, more easily than the 1911 shooters. During debriefings, the consensus was that 1911 shooters were more dependent on their trigger for acceptable performance...hardware solution to a software problem.

Glock, SIG and Beretta shooters were also more adaptable to the revolver than 1911 shooters

 

[Coal Dragger]

I've found that to be pretty true most of the time as well.

I'll also observe that guys or gals who can run a DA revolver trigger well, can shoot just about any handgun well at least where the making bullets hit targets part is concerned. My dad is getting back into the sport now that he is retired, and is one of those troglodytes who hates auto pistols. He used to shoot a DA revolver pretty well, he recently acquired a semi-auto pistol that he despises but shoots well even with a near 15 year break from shooting.

He'd probably like semi-autos a lot more if he'd buy a good one. He picked up a Remington R51 after reading the scathing reviews to see if it is really as bad as everyone claimed. He reports he is at 700 rounds with no malfunctions, but doesn't like the little gun because it is a pain in the buttocks to field strip and clean. Trying to get him to buy good equipment is an up hill battle. Although he did pick up a S&W 986 Pro Series in 9mm with a 5" barrel at my suggestion because he wants to shoot cheap 9mm and wants to put it through a revolver. I'm sure he'll be back to whacking a torso sized steel target at 100 yards with it like he used too with his .357.

 

[Hangingrock]

I'll also observe that guys or gals who can run a DA revolver trigger well, can shoot just about any handgun well at least where the making bullets hit targets part is concerned

S&W K & N frame revolvers were often modified mainspring strain screw adjustment, mainspring contoured & shaped, rebound spring coils cut, parts polished and action packed with gun slick grease. Very few people shot double action revolvers stock from the OEM. Law enforcement may or may not have been the exception.