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Wish List: Next Generation Progressive

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by GW Staar, Feb 17, 2012.

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  1. GW Staar

    GW Staar Member

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    The closest thing available to a "next generation" press is the Dillon 1050 with its 6 stations. The minuses on that system, that prevents it from taking the reloading world by storm is 1. the price; 2. the short warranty. (Dillon's flagship is really the 650 while the 1050 is a product made for limited commercial use....hence the limited warranty) 3. some stations are limited-use stations.

    So Here's the big question: (say RCBS, Dillon, Hornady, Lee are lurking....because they are)

    What do you think the next generation presses ought to look like....keeping the price inside or close to a 1000 dollar bill?

    In Peter Eick's recent thread, he describes a 9 Station Press he would love to see and buy.

    What say ye?
    :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2012
  2. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    A nine station press would have to be motorized or the lever would be so long you would be in the next county. Given those restrictions, I doubt you could beat a grand for pricing.

    I would like to see the manufacturers fix the current presses inadequacies. Reliability of the case feeders, priming system and bullet feeders are too low for my purposes. Once you get them up and running, things generally are fine. But it seems many reloaders have multiple presses to avoid the cartridge change and start up issues. While the press may cost less than $1000, multiple presses do not.

    I would like to see a way to inspect the primer before and after installation, The RCBS APS strip system comes the closest.
     
  3. helotaxi

    helotaxi Member

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    Why would you deprime and resize in different operations? Why does the case have to feed into it's own station? The Dillon 1050B is an 8-station, not 6 and essentially does all of the above plus swage primer pockets prior to priming.

    I personally don't have much use for more than 4 stations until someone has a way to lube, size, and trim/chamfer/debur on the same pass as the loading operation. Until that day, I'll do case prep completely separately from the loading operation. I don't have a problem with the primer system on my Dillon 550 and it only takes a couple of minutes to swap from small to large primers. My case and bullet feeders (right and left hand respectively) are 100% reliable and don't slow me down at all either.
     
  4. Peter M. Eick

    Peter M. Eick Member

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    Why?

    I suggested the separate stations because commonly I get more accurate rifle rounds if I resize without the deprime and expander in the die. Thus I deprime in one, resize in the next die and the since I use BTHP's normally I don't expand the brass. It works great for me.

    My suggestion is one of flexibility.

    5 stations to me is cramped and tight. 9 stations just seems like I could have more room and do everything a lot easier.

    Like was listed above that is my suggestions. While I could get by with 7 stations, I don't see the point of upgrading from my pro2000 for just 2 more stations. I really want to make a significant change.

    How would you all do the stations and how many would you need?
     
  5. helotaxi

    helotaxi Member

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    Have you tried a neck die or bushing die that has a decapping rod without an expander ball on it? Both Forster and Redding make dies in this configuration. The inside of the neck is never touched by the die. The Forster Benchrest FL dies should be looked at as well. The expander ball sits high enough on the stem that it is expanding the neck while the top of the neck is still in the sizer. The result is that it can't be pulled off center.

    My ideal setup for rifle would be 1) Decap 2) Swage primer pocket 3) lube 4) Resize/trim/chamfer/debur 5) charge 6) seat 7) crimp. 7 and 8 stage pressses are out there but even the 1050 doesn't have room to run the 1200RT and still be able to perform all the other operations in a single pass. As such, I'm perfectly content to do case prep separately and simply load on the 550.
     
  6. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    Your'e reloading for accuracy on a progressive?
     
  7. Waldog

    Waldog Member

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  8. Peter M. Eick

    Peter M. Eick Member

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    Yes, for accuracy. Why not milk out a bit more accuracy if I can get it easily?

    When I want to go 'whole hog" I get out the single stage and do everything right but for production rounds for the SuperMatch, the progressive is good enough.

    Also have a set of Redding dies that do what you describe. That is why I want the option for my next presses.

    I like your suggestion Helotaxi. Good idea. I have round loads through the pro2000 twice to allow me to run different stages of the press. It is more work but reasonably flexible.
     
  9. helotaxi

    helotaxi Member

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    There are different levels of accuracy. Many long range competitive shooters reload their match ammo on progressive presses. Their rounds are more than accurate enough for their uses. Careful attention setup of the press and the process can yield ammo just as uniform as that coming off a standard single stage press. When you start talking about benchrest accuracy, you start talking about arbor presses and the dies meant for them.
     
  10. loadedround

    loadedround Member

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    Why not "cut to the chase" and just buy a Dillon 650 and be done with it. The 1050 as mentioned previously is for commercial loaders and not hobbyists like us, no matter how advanced. Check out a Dillon catalog or their website to determine how much a caliber change over would be on a Dillon 1050 or a "newly designed" proverbial nine station press and god forbid, the price for changing primer sizes also. Go the 650 route and save enough to by a new firearm! :)
     
  11. joed

    joed Member

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    I've owned a 1050 for 6 years now. This is not a Super 1050 but the older model that I picked up used from a gunshop that used to sell commercial ammo. Near as I can tell the only difference between the Super is the older press won't accept cartridges larger then .308, but has a shorter stroke. If the 1050 has a drawback it's price only. In 6 years that press hasn't needed anything. In fact it is the only Dillon press that I haven't broken anything on. Both the 550 and 650 would occasionally break something, usually a cheap plastic part.

    The same time I got the 1050 I sold my 550 and bought a 650. With all the bells and whistles the 650 came out to about $750. The 1050 used was $900. The 650 has had mishaps breaking parts which Dillon has replaced for free. Production on the 2 presses can't even be compared, the 1050 will run circles around the 650. The 650 is also temperamental having good and bad days. Not so on the 1050, it produces ammo in large quantities any time I want. The 650 has maybe produced 6k rounds for me, the 1050 has done the same since I've owned it. The 1050 runs flawlessly and I'm quite happy not having a warranty.

    My only regret with the 1050 was when I bought it there were 2 presses for sale. I only bought one because I was worried about buying a used commercial press. Looking back I should have bought both 1050's and never even considered the 650.

    From my experience the 1050 has only 1 operational flaw, setup. It sacrifices easy setup for high output. Caliber changes take about 30 minutes. Once setup it's non stop output at a slow rate of about 1000 rounds an hour. If I push it a little I can break 1200 rounds an hour easily, but my arm usually gives out after an hour. They should have motorized this press.

    Both presses have produced quality ammo for me that I would put up against anything loaded on a single stage press.
     
  12. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    What size groups can you get with it?
     
  13. joed

    joed Member

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    jerkface11, for rifle ammo I've only loaded .223 but group size was 1/2", the same as what I get loading on the Rock Chucker. The hardest part of getting accuracy on a progressive press is using the right powder. Use a powder that doesn't meter well and accuracy will suffer. Choose the right powder that flows like water and accuracy is comparable to anything loaded on a single stage.

    I haven't loaded .308 yet but I'd bet it would work well too given the right powder.

    The only reason I don't load my other rifle calibers on the progressive is I don't shoot a lot of ammo with them. The benefit of the progressive is quantity. For a rifle that I shoot 100 rounds in 2 months it isn't worth the setup time to me.

    For pistol rounds I get as good accuracy as I can from a single stage also. It's hard for me to put a group size on pistol ammo because I'm a better shot with some guns then others. The .45 acp amazed me though. I never wanted to own one as I carried a Colt in the service for awhile. That gun was so inaccurate I don't know that I could honestly hit a person with it at 25 yards. For that reason I never owned a .45 acp till 6 years ago when I bought a Kimber. I expected shotgun accuracy from it so loaded it on the progressive. I was very surprised to see that it equaled anything I could shoot with a revolver. I've since found a love for autos. Again, it's choosing the right powder.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  14. Striker Fired

    Striker Fired Member

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    A nine station press would be nice if it is engineered right, but it would be massive,somthing like 8 to 10" diameter shellplate.The press would probably weigh 75 to 100lbs,so shipping would run near $75 to $100.Pricey,pricey
    I could more use a seven as a compromise. but I am also getting by nicely with 5.
     
  15. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    Well that's better than I would have expected.
     
  16. armarsh

    armarsh Member

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    If this new press was designed like the Hornady, you could get by with 6 or 7 stations rather than 9 because the case feeding and priming are done at half stages. I really like my Hornady, but would like one more station. Two would be a bonus to hedge against future needs.
     
  17. helotaxi

    helotaxi Member

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    People with real experience with good progressives shouldn't be at all surprised with the quality of ammo that they can produce.
     
  18. Hondo 60
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    Hondo 60 Member

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    I wish the 550 had 5 stations.
    I'd like the extra station to house a powder cop die.
    Yes, I know the 650 has that extra station, but it's also how many hundreds more expensive?
    And I like the separate seat/crimp.
     
  19. Kevin Rohrer

    Kevin Rohrer Member

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    re: 1050
    Joed: Are you aware that Ponsness-Warren makes a motorized drive for it?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    re: Accuracy on a Progressive

    Isn't accuracy more related to the dies used than the press they are used on, as well as the round-to-round consistency of the powder measure?

    I am not saying anything negative about Dillon dies. I am currently loading a thousand rounds of .308 on my 550 after having resized the brass on a turret. Am using a Hornady seating die w/ the sleeve so my fingers don't get caught. The powder measure I am using on the 550 measures .0 or +.1gr. variation. With this setup, I don't believe that my ammo will be any less accurate than if the entire process was done on a single-stage.
     
  20. Kevin Rohrer

    Kevin Rohrer Member

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    Agreed. A semi-progressive like the 550 w/ a powder check die would make it just about perfect.

    Of course, the priming system needs to be changed. :cool:
     
  21. helotaxi

    helotaxi Member

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    Someone with experience who understands. A good progressive isn't going to have any more slop (and sometimes less) than a single stage. From there it's just a matter of using good dies and setting them up correctly. With a stable load, +/- 0.2gn on the powder charge isn't going to make an appreciable difference, or you could set up an electronic powder dispenser and weigh every charge on the progressive as well. It will slow things down a bit but still be a good bit faster than a single stage.
     
  22. joed

    joed Member

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    Didn't know that and thanks for the tip.
     
  23. joed

    joed Member

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    If I could change anything on Dillon presses it would be:

    1. 5 stations on the 550b allowing the use of a powder check die.

    2. Use the priming system from either the 550b or 1050 on the 650. That rotary system is the pits.

    I have no experience with any other brands but if I did I'm sure I could come up with complaints.
     
  24. GW Staar

    GW Staar Member

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    I think all the next generation presses ought to have safer primer loading systems. One of the reasons I got an RCBS press was for the APS primer system. Is it perfect? I haven't found anything "perfect" in reloading yet, but it's easily faster and safer than any tube primer system.

    I'm not saying APS has to be industry wide, I'm saying it should've at least provided the stimulus to the other manufacturers to develop something safer than what they have....better than APS if they can, and definitely more than just tube sleeves.

    The latest story out of Calguns tells of an Arizona 550 user (3 months ago) poking primers in a tube and inserting the full tube to his press. He pulled the pin to drop the primers and he may as well pulled the pin to a grenade. As in Pull Pin-instant Kaboom. Read the story at Calguns Thread.
    [​IMG]

    The consensus was that static electricity was the cause. Personally, I think Murphy was the cause. "If its possible for something to go wrong it will. (sometime)" Over at Arfcom they made a big deal (as they should have) out of a guy who found a treasure trove of CCI APS primers at his local pawn shop. He brought them home and immediately started emptying all the strips, of their primers, and filling a jar full. He took a picture and sent it to Arfcom. Imagine the stir that made.:) Crys of "you just made a bomb!" Well folks I made bombs for 20 years by loading RCBS primer tubes (no protection sleeves then) for my Rock Chucker. I discovered Lee's hand primer and so that practice ended. I felt flat lucky that I didn't have any primer detonations in that 20 years. When it came time to choose a progressive I wasn't too keen to go back to tube loading. sleeves or no.

    Besides a safe primer station I would like at least a 6 station press so I don't have to choose either or. I want a lock-out die station, a bullet feeder station, and separate seat and crimp stations.

    So...1. size/deprime 2. prime/expand/charge 3. lock-out die 4. bulletfeeder 5. seater 6. crimper.

    Seven stations would be OK too if you want a separate charge station. Actually that would preferable to me if in that scenario the 3rd charging station is stationary like RCBS's current #3 station is. That works really well for rifle caliber or load changes. Just uncouple the spring, lift,empty, and refill the measure, recouple the spring, and set the micometer dial.

    As for a Military crimp swaging station, I'll pass. I've had enough experience with old hard military brass that just springs back, to convert me to a reamer.

    An improved Dillon trimmer that deburrs and chamfers, (I know they say you don't need to...whatever) would be awesome...and a Dillon trimmer-like press-mountable tool that reams primer pockets would be super cool. Both tools need to be way smaller than the current one. The reamer could be like a flex hosed Dremel hanging under the press, that engages during the primer seating stroke. That would require station #1 to size/deprime, station #2 to ream/and maybe expand,...and station #3 to prime and fill?

    As for Lube dies....maybe. Haven't tried one so I can't tell whether it would be that much better than the spray lube in box method. Note to Peter Eick: The RCBS lube die includes depriming...scratch the need for #9.;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2012
  25. Striker Fired

    Striker Fired Member

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    That'll leave a mark!!!
     
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