WMD Mega-Thread

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Anyone here play Chess?

Oil? Terrorist support? 9-11? Saudi Arabia? Mecca/Medina? Iraq? WMD? Iran?

Chess at an International Level?

Who financially supported Al-Q? Saudi's...

Where did most of the 9-11 fly-boys come from? Saudi...

Where does (did) UBL call home? Saudi...

What would happen if Uncle Sam did anything to Saudi Arabia interests, keeping in mind the big black rock worshipped there?

What if you found a way to head off that problem by taking out a noisy neighbor who may or may not have WMD, and who ignored the good old UN, but is a totalitarian dictator sitting on 40% of the world's oil reserves and once tried to "kill the POTUS" via contract (and just happened to be the father of a Texan who is now also POTUS) and could bring "Liberation" to his poor oppressed people (and consequently do business with same people in dealing with their oil), whilst sending a message to ALL of the neighbors who like to burn American flags? (long sentence I know)

Your move.

Adios
 
I don't pretend to know the degree of importance in the minds of the Administration, but it seems to me that for at least another ten or twenty years, U.S. survival "as we know it" depends on oil.

I believe it is fact that oil and natural gas are as important to our society's existence as water is to my own.

I don't believe that the war was "all about Iraq's oil". It was part of an overall grand strategy about all middle-eastern oil. (As near as I can tell.) If there weren't oil there, we would never have had foreign policy views and actions which contributed in whatever part to the militancy of such as Al Qaida. Again, as near as I can tell, oil is the only reason that the middle-east has any relevance at all for the U.S.

Now, whether or not all this plays out to our favor is beyond any of my prognosticatin' ability.

Opinion: Any government, anywhere, will tell folks what it thinks will garner support for proposed actions. One hopes they believe what they're saying. However, I think this holds true for tax cuts, tax increases, new programs, wars...SFAIK, only the passage of time can actually prove whether the action was "righteous". For this Iraq deal, my personal jury is still out.

Art
 
Faustulus:

I'm aware that everyone doesn't share our principles and ideals. My view of things isn't predicated on that belief or on that necessity. I've said in these pages previously that we went into Iraq not to liberate the Iraqi people but to liberate our own future. Part of that strategic thrust concerns natural resources, as Art has suggested. But there is more to it than that.

We are not Israel and we have incalculably more options. Name a great nation-state that has not had its share of violent dissenters. Do you really think that we could not make things a LOT tougher for terrorists, up the ante considerably? Trust me, we can; it all depends on how dramatic the need becomes. The terrorists can inflict damage, even serious damage, but they are still on the margins and ultimately will lose. Take a look at The Battle of Algiers, the Pontecorvo film, if you want some insights into tactics. Hint: "Compassion" isn't one of them. So far we have ruled out a wide range of potential responses; were terrorists to do great damage to us I believe those scruples would start to erode.

No homeland, no cities? That's illusory and you know it. Terrorists do not exist in isolation. They are supplied and supported from without. Wars are fought by peoples, not small numbers of active combatants. We won WW II because of our economic might in the end, and that economic might was the whole of our population. That reality has not changed in the era of the suicide bomber.
 
Desructo6

Your reply is jibberish and makes no sense! Of course I am not comparing the Tonkin Gulf to 911! I am comparing it to planting WMD in Iraq! Your comparison of LBJ and Bush? What is different in YOUR comparison? What you have posted is total nonsense!
 
What are these more options? From what I can tell our tactics to date haven't stopped any more attacks. al-Qaida was about two months out of its normal 18 month cycle in its latest attacks. Remember most of its previous attacks have not been on American soil and there was no reason to believe that this would change.
In truth we are in check, to borrow Baba Louie's anaolgy. If we pass many more patriot acts we will lose even more of our freedoms, and the terrorist win. If we attack anymore countries will will lose more support in the world and help bin Laden gain more recruits and more support.
We do not have the capablity to take on the world and win, history has proven no one does.

No homeland, no cities? That's illusory and you know it. Terrorists do not exist in isolation. They are supplied and supported from without.
Yes and we just engendered more support by attacking Iraq. But it isn't easy to cut off their sources of income because it is not just one country. If it were so easy to strike at them don't you think we would have after 9/11? We hit Afghanistan and they moved to other places, found other monies. Don't overestimate our strength and don't underestimate their resolve. So no it is not illusory. It is very real and we had better come to grips that our army is no protection against these new invaders.
 
faustulus, I don't see us as being in check. Regarding Al Qaida, we've messed them up pretty badly. No more safe haven in Afghanistan, nor training camps. We've interdicted a lot of their money. We've grabbed onto a fair amount of both their leadership people and their trained people. We've gotten quite a lot of international cooperation in all of the above actions, as well. Al Qaida's capabilities for major actions have been blunted.

Al Qaida had a number of years to set up shop in various places around the world, and develop active action-groups. Places like Indonesia and the Philippines as well as European countries are now working against Al Q; even a few African countries are cooperating. I sure don't expect rapid success, though; it does take time.

Al Qaida doesn't care one way or the other about our repressions as exemplified by the Patriot Act, etc. What they want is that the U.S. completely leave all Islamic countries, and eventually convert to Islam. The Al Qaida belief seems to be that all infidels convert or die--it's just a matter of time, 10 years or 100 or 1,000.

When Dubya started explaining his beliefs for action, soon after 9/11, I figured we were in a war of a minimum of five years, and more likely ten years if not longer.

To me, a bunch of folks in this country are gonna have to unlearn the concept of "Instant Gratification". We're in a long-haul deal, and a lot of things are gonna get a bunch worse before they get better.

If ever...

Art
 
"We do not have the capablity to take on the world and win, history has proven no one does."

Come now, man, think positively!:D

I could spin out some dark scenarios for you but I see no point to inflaming this thread with apocalyptic speculations. Suffice it to say that a motivated people, as technologically advanced as we are, in righteous wrath, could make things very, very uncomfortable for a whole lot of folks. By the time we got to the endgame of WW II, there weren't a lot of scruples left and WW III or WW IV,if that's what we are in, won't be any different.

I'd like to see all this have a sunnier outcome. Believe it or not, taking over Iraq, however fraught with difficulties such a policy may be, is an attempt to defuse wider conflict. I am complete agreement with Art about the wider picture and how its implications for the American people. Our nation and our culture are being threatened. It is time to become Spartans.
 
"Don't overestimate our strength and don't underestimate their resolve. So no it is not
illusory. It is very real and we had better come to grips that our army is no protection against these new invaders."

You're right. They are many. Those of us who believe in freedom and are willing to fight for it may not be so many. But we do have certain things going for us. I have great faith in the core of this nation, if less faith in its margins. I believe we will do what we have to do. The grim fact is that most of the Moslem world is incredibly vulnerable. Angry mobs raging in the street are a sign of weakness, not strength.

My own view is you hold the leaders of a culture responsible for its delinquents.
 
I particularly liked this column by Charles Krauthammer in the Washington Post:

Hoaxes, Hype and Humiliation

"It took only 48 hours for the museum to be destroyed, with at least 170,000 artifacts carried away by looters."

-- New York Times, April 13

"You'd have to go back centuries, to the Mongol invasion of Baghdad in 1258, to find looting on this scale."

-- British archaeologist Eleanor Robson, New York Times, April 16

Well, not really. Turns out the Iraqi National Museum lost not 170,000 treasures but 33. You'd have to go back centuries, say, to the Mongol invasion of Baghdad in 1258, to find mendacity on this scale.

What happened? The source of the lie, Donny George, director general of research and study of the Iraqi State Board of Antiquities, now says (Washington Post, June 9) that he originally told the media that "there were 170,000 pieces in the entire museum collection. Not 170,000 pieces stolen. No, no, no. That would be every single object we have!"

Of course, George saw the story of the stolen 170,000 museum pieces go around the world and said nothing -- indeed, two weeks later, he was in London calling the looting "the crime of the century." Why? Because George and the other museum officials who wept on camera were Baath Party appointees, and the media, Western and Arab, desperate to highlight the dark side of the liberation of Iraq, bought their deceptions without an ounce of skepticism.

It played on front pages everywhere and allowed for some deeply satisfying antiwar preening. For example, a couple of nonentities on a panel no one had ever heard of (the President's Cultural Property Advisory Committee) received major media play for their ostentatious resignations over the cultural rape of Baghdad.

Frank Rich best captured the spirit of antiwar vindication when he wrote (New York Times, April 27) that "the pillaging of the Baghdad museum has become more of a symbol of Baghdad's fall than the toppling of a less exalted artistic asset, the Saddam statue."

The narcissism, the sheer snobbery of this statement, is staggering. The toppling of Saddam Hussein freed 25 million people from 30 years of torture, murder, war, starvation and impoverishment at the hands of a psychopathic family that matched Stalin for cruelty but took far more pleasure in it. For Upper West Side liberalism, this matters less than the destruction of a museum.

Which didn't even happen! What now becomes of Rich's judgment that the destruction of the museum constitutes "the naked revelation of our worst instincts at the very dawn of our grandiose project to bring democratic values to the Middle East"? Does he admit that this judgment was nothing but a naked revelation of the cheapest instincts of the antiwar left -- that, shamed by the jubilation of Iraqis upon their liberation, a liberation the Western left did everything it could to prevent, the left desperately sought to change the subject and taint the victory?

Hardly. The left simply moved on to another change of subject: the "hyping" of the weapons of mass destruction.

The inability to find the weapons is indeed troubling, but only because it means that the weapons remain unaccounted for and might be in the wrong hands. The idea that our inability to thus far find the weapons proves that the threat was phony and hyped is simply false.

If the U.S. intelligence agencies bent their data to damn Saddam Hussein, why is it that the French, German and Russian intelligence services all came to the same conclusion? Why is it that every country on the Security Council, including Syria, in the unanimous Resolution 1441, declared that Hussein had failed to account for the tons of chemical and biological agents he had in 1998? If he had destroyed them all by 2002, why did he not just say so, list where and when it happened, and save his regime?

If Hussein had no chemical weapons, why did coalition forces find thousands of gas masks and atropine syringes in Iraqi army bunkers? And does anybody believe that President Bush, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Gen. Tommy Franks ordered U.S. soldiers outside Baghdad to don heavy, bulky chemical-weapons suits in scorching heat -- an encumbrance that increased their risks in conventional combat and could have jeopardized their lives -- to maintain a charade?

Everyone thought Hussein had weapons because we knew for sure he had them five years ago and there was no evidence that he had disposed of them. The weapons-hyping charge is nothing more than the Iraqi museum story Part II: A way for opponents of the war -- deeply embarrassed by the mass graves, torture chambers and grotesque palaces discovered after the war -- to change the subject and relieve themselves of the shame of having opposed the liberation of 25 million people.


© 2003 The Washington Post Company



------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
If Hussein had no chemical weapons, why did coalition forces find thousands of gas masks and atropine syringes in Iraqi army bunkers?

DUH......maybe they thought they wouldn't NEED THEM and left them in the bunkers!!!! They didn't expect their own forces to deploy them. They didn't expect US troops to deploy them.

Didn't the US troops soon follow suit? Went to MOPP zero because they knew the WMD threat was also ...........zero?!!

Uh, chemical masks and atropine? We had 'em! Does that mean the US was going to deploy nerve gas?!!!! :rolleyes:

deeply embarrassed by the mass graves, torture chambers and grotesque palaces discovered after the war -- to change the subject and relieve themselves of the shame of having opposed the liberation of 25 million people.

The multitudes killed by Saddam after they responded to G.H.W. Bush’s encouragement to rebel against Saddam after the first Gulf War…..are still dead. This war has not resurrected them.

Oh, BTW, when is the NEW "democratically elected" government of the Iraqi people going take power?

Don
 
Don, neither you nor I are privvy to the intelligence that comes in daily to the Pentagon and the White House. Nor are we privvy to what the White House was told.

However, we do know that US troops have not used chembio weapons. We certainly couldn't do so in this war, or the US would have been lambasted for High Hypocrisy. Certainly the Iraqi leadership knew this, as well as how our military fights. If you accept that premise, then there can be no justification for the Iraqi troops to have stockpiles of gas masks and atropine syringes. Who did they think was going to invade them: The Grateful Dead?

"The multitudes killed by Saddam after they responded to G.H.W. Bush’s encouragement to rebel against Saddam after the first Gulf War…..are still dead. This war has not resurrected them."

Swell. So, after the first Warsaw Ghetto uprising, which did not bring down the Third Reich, we should have just let bygones be bygones, right? After all, the Polish Jews were all dead. We couldn't resurrect them, so why bother?

Tom Daschle's spin machine has been working 24/7 to turn public attention to "WMD-Gate," and to distract the public from any other issue. If he (or his lackeys) have it his way, we'll see another impeachment trial.

The difference this time is that the public recognizes that Clinton was a liar, perjurer and near-pedophile. The public believes that GW is the antithesis of all that.

If the Dem's go down that road, they're doomed.

Meanwhile, though, the New York Times seems to be doing a booming business. May I suggest you subscribe to another paper?
 
Swell. So, after the first Warsaw Ghetto uprising, which did not bring down the Third Reich, we should have just let bygones be bygones, right? After all, the Polish Jews were all dead. We couldn't resurrect them, so why bother?

THE IRAQIS THAT WERE SLAUGHTERED WERE KILLED AFTER G.H.W. BUSH ENCOURAGED THEM TO REBEL......... AND THEN ABANDONED THEM!

Don
 
"THE IRAQIS THAT WERE SLAUGHTERED WERE KILLED AFTER G.H.W. BUSH ENCOURAGED THEM TO REBEL......... AND THEN ABANDONED THEM!"


Stop shouting, Don. It's late and I have a headache. ;)

I'm not talking about G.H.W. Bush. I believe the discussion on this thread is about GW. And most people--especially conservatives--think that GW is of a whole different political philosophy than his father.
 
No, Monkeyleg! I don't think the traditional conservatives (paleo-cons) or libertarians are fooled.

Just the neo-cons! And reality is about to strike them "upside" the head!

Sorry if I give you have a headache! But, fortunately it isn't the 9mm/7.62mm type that those that took Bush Sr. for his word got when they took his advise to rebel against Saddam..... and then were left to hang out and dry!

Don
 
Longeyes,

I want to be positive, but I want to be realistic too.
I look at the sentiment the war has engendered throughout the world. Right or wrong, the perception among many is that we attacked Iraq for no reason, or because they were Muslim and we wanted to kill someone. Again it doesn't matter what the truth is that is the perception and it will help fill terrorists camps. It is like tightening our fist to hold water.

By the time we got to the endgame of WW II, there weren't a lot of scruples left and WW III or WW IV,if that's what we are in, won't be any different.

I am reminded of the Einstein quote about rocks.

I have some faith in America but I suppose I tend to have more faith in the extremes than in the core. I tend to view them as the ones happy with the status quo.
Angry mobs are a sign of chaos, and chaos' only enemy is order and like it or not chaos has nature on its side.

Art,
I must respectfully disagree. I think the recent attacks in Morocco highlight that the network is alive and well and able to coordinate attacks. They were not on our soil but historically they have not targeted only U.S. targets.
When I say we are in check I mean only to illustrate that the moves we make must be carefully planned. I think the terrorist's main goal is to bring us down and destroy our freedom. This may seem ideological but it is directly related to our economy. America is more of a quilt. It is held together by beliefs and ideals, cut them or take them away it will destroy itself, the terrorist understand this.
 
Faustulus, as far as your comment, "It is held together by beliefs and ideals, cut them or take them away it will destroy itself, the terrorist understand this.", I can agree with the first part, but I'm not so sure the terrorists really understand this. Maybeso a few, but not the vast majority.

I've watched the goings-on in Israel since it was created. "Life" magazine had quite a few photo-articles about the Palestinian refugee camps, among many other information sources. (Dunno why the whole deal caught my imagination, at age 14...) Those folks were lied to before 1948, and unendingly thereafter. As near as I can tell, for oh, so many, there is no philosophy at all; only hatred of Jews, of the idea of Israel, and the of West in general.

I am often reminded of Harry Harrison's novel, "Deathworld", the first of a trilogy. Mindless violence in the name of survival...

A bin Laden might understand your point, but I'd bet that thousands of his sympathizers would not.

:), Art
 
I think we need to cohere and I think we need to stop worrying overmuch about what "the rest of the world" thinks or wishes to believe. No doubt there were many who weren't too placed with the goings-on here in the late 18th century. So what? What counts is what we think. The rest of the world will deal with us because they have to, just as we have to deal with them.

Is our national identity fraying? That's the subject of another thread, but I refer you to recent writings by Victor Davis Hanson, who has the boldness to question whether our nation should not be seeing itself as multiracial but NOT multicultural. There is, quite plainly, a core American culture. Those of us who aren't clear on that are best advised to probe for it--while there's still time. We will need to understand who we are to survive.

My point about nettlesome terrorists was that Americans, being decent and civilized people in the main, often have trouble thinking the "unthinkable." What the terrorists do to us, in terms of attacking our vital centers and disrupting our unity, we are able to do in return, and no doubt there are clever lads and lasses, good at playing geopolitical chess with an impressive array of pieces, who are working on that right now in Langley and elsewhere. Will that lead to a loss of freedom in our own country? I hope not but in times of major and protracted war--and it looks to me as if that's what we are in, like it or not--expanding the scope of freedom may not be priority one. Pardoxically, there has never be more latitude to "act out," for better or worse, than in the America of '03.
 
sorry

"No doubt there were
many who weren't too placed with the goings-on here in the late 18th century."

I meant to write "pleased with the goings-on," not "placed." Early in the morning here.
 
"Bush is high in the polls". Yes he is but LBJ tried to govern by polls and it didn't work so does Bush think he will be the exception?
You're the one who seemed to place a parallel between Bush and LBJ. If it made no sense, why bring it up?
Your comparison of LBJ and Bush? What is different in YOUR comparison?
The difference is that Bush won by a JFK-slim margin, his party did not control both the Senate and House (now, yes, but not at the beginning of his presidency), etc. Bush called up the reserves ASAP, LBJ didn't call them up at all. LBJ and Bush are very different, more different than similar.
Don't forget the other poll 10 dead in last 15 days.
Casualties are going to happen. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing, period.
 
It is worth doing....

Destructo6

And the U.S. is doing very well:)

It is this fact which is stirring up all the "peace at any price" folks!:D

Let them rant.... and search for 'evil' in the justifiable act of national self-defense that is Gulf War II. Yup, it's still in progress, and whether or not the U.S. succeeds in all its worthwhile goals, it is a fine start at negating the efforts of the fundamentalist muslims.

Any of the "where are the WMD's?" folks ever play basketball?
Try winning a game without any offensive strategy:rolleyes:

Civilian casualities? They happen.

WWII was just that, folks.

A fight of monumental proportions, in which the participants
were willing to go to any extreme for victory.

In Saddam's case, he could have chosen to verify the W.M.D.
He even could have stepped down.
At the very least, he could have declared Baghdad an 'open city' and avoided the sort of warfare which is likely to produce civilian casualities.

The U.S. did a splendid job of limiting civilian deaths and conducted a campaign that will be studied for its rapid success in eliminating the military capacity of its opponent.

The war remains a very viable and rational approach to the threat of muslim fundamentalism. Will the U.S. be able to stabilize the region and defeat the fundamentalists in their own backyard?

It's a difficult task, but a lot better strategy to engage them there than just wait for more attacks on the U.S.

That's my opinion.

Please continue the "where's the WMD" sideshow.... :)
 
The Democrats have to exploit this...

they have to use what I suspect is a very short window of opportunity, timewise. I also expect they will fail to pin any wrongdoing on G.W.:)

I agree with Art on several points. among them that this a 'long haul' action...

It is an excellent strategy to take a war into your opponent's territory; and the U.S. has done just this. despite the assertions of some on this board, the U.S. is very much better placed to whack terrorists and their supporters than it was a few months ago.
It will be a while before we begin to see the major victory we hope for...or it may even go sour...no guarantees in any war-

Gulf War II is an excellent strategic response to the terrorists, and the situations which emboldered them:)

The WMD thing is now mere domestic politics:rolleyes:
 
For those of you who get all your news from the "fair and unbiased" FOX news network :rolleyes: , you might want to take a look at this article and see how many false reports they issued!

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/steinreich8.html

The entire article should be read so you can see the EXTENT of FOX new's "false reporting" (with hardly ever a retraction or correction when their reports prove to be false.

But, before you go to the article....... take SPECIAL NOTE of what is said about those 20 rockets filled with sarin and ready for use! :D

April 7: Fox, echoing NPR, reports that U.S. forces near Baghdad have discovered a weapons cache of 20 medium-range missiles containing sarin and mustard gas. Initial tests show that the deadly chemicals are not "trace elements."

[In the coming weeks, this embarrassing non-discovery is quickly stomped down the Memory Hole. The missiles were never mentioned again.]

Don:rolleyes:
 
Did you miss this part, Don?
Fox, echoing NPR
Fox reported that NPR claims...

It's standard news practice that cuts the second reporting party, in this case Fox, out of responsibility for the story. Every news organization does it.
 
Fox, echoing NPR

Your point, Destructo? That FOX only put out false information in this case because it was reported by another news service?

I'm sure that when FOX caught this error they immediately put out a retraction or correction! I just haven't been able to find it. But, maybe YOU, as an avid FOX viewer can find FOX's correction on that particular bogus report! :rolleyes:

Don
 
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