Worst currently-fielded military rifle in the world?

[Cosmoline]

I don't believe you "shot down" my complaints.

You're not quoting me there. You seem to be responding to my arguments by citing a different poster. As I pointed out, you are viewing small arms development as an ever-improving parabolic curve. It is in fact a series of tradeoffs. Which is why the assault rifles we currently favor are inferior in some respects to the Garand and even the bolt action rifles. They trade off power and effective range for capacity and less weight.

I'd say the people who plan battles disagree with you, too. There are many great features to the Krag, too. But it's no longer a relevant military weapon.

Not a very good rejoinder, esp. since the folks who arm and equip our military forces usually display all the wisdom of a 4 year old picking out new toys.

 

[Tony Williams]

Is there another source on the L85 upgrades? I've heard a couple of negatives, now a positive, got another positive review to balance out?

But it still is right-handed only. A critical failure by itself.

Doesn't seem to bother the British Army: everyone shoots right-handed but they seem to perform well enough.

I have some experience of wrong-hand shooting, being right-handed but having a left master eye. When I started rifle shooting I decided to shoot left-handed as this worked better for me. It felt strange at first, but I soon got used to it.

I think a lot of the issues around bullpup v traditional design, and right or left-handed shooting, boil down to the same thing; it's a matter of how you're trained and what you you're used to.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[The Grand Inquisitor]

Actually for those of you gloating about how the British SAS began to use American Stoner rifles instead of the homemade L85 - 'yer wrong.


The SAS actually use Diamaco M16's (or whatever they call them).

 

[Cortland]

The SAS actually use Diamaco M16's (or whatever they call them).

Now owned by Colt

 

[Kurush]

I think a lot of the issues around bullpup v traditional design, and right or left-handed shooting, boil down to the same thing; it's a matter of how you're trained and what you you're used to.

If you're carrying an M4 right handed and you need to peek around a corner to the right, you can transition the M4 to your weak shoulder and peek around. You just can't do that with an L85.

 

[madmike]

I'm left handed but shoot right most of the time. For barricade drills I swap as needed.

You can't do that with a bullpup, true. But most other bullpups are reversible for left handed shooters.

 

[NMshooter]

Considering the FBI decided that the G-36 was not as good as the M-4A1 after testing, I will rest my case on that.

Incidentally, the feds preferred the SIG 551/552...

And I must admit I was expecting things to get a bit heated with the Garand comments.

As much as I like them (and the M-14) I might have made similar comments myself.

And it sure looks like the winner is the INSAS, or would that be looser?

 

[madmike]

Considering the FBI decided that the G-36 was not as good as the M-4A1 after testing, I will rest my case on that.

Incidentally, the feds preferred the SIG 551/552...

They also like .40 cal....

Grins, ducks and rrrrrrrunnnnnnsssss

 

[shootinstudent]

Incidentally, the feds preferred the SIG 551/552...

How's that SIG stack up against a pointy stick?

 

[Preacherman]

Folks, in the interests of avoiding too much thread drift, may I point out that the Garand debate is irrelevant to the purposes of this thread? If you want to continue it, please start a new thread for the purpose.

I'd also like to point out that virtually all military combat shooting takes place at relatively short ranges. It's very unusual for infantry to engage the enemy at greater than 250-300 yards, and most engagements are at well under half of that distance. The fact that heavier calibers can be accurate at many hundreds of yards is basically a specialist application, irrelevant to the average "grunt". In all my combat experience, I doubt whether I ever took a shot at an enemy at over 150 yards range. Sure, my experience is limited to heavily-overgrown terrain and urban combat, and there are those who've fought in theaters where open country was the rule, with longer shots inevitable as a result: but I stand by my perspective that an intermediate cartridge such as 7.62x39, 5.56x45, or 5.45x39, is more than adequate over the combat ranges encountered by most soldiers. Longer-range shots are typically dealt with using full-auto fire to saturate the area of the target, or by specialist marksmen or snipers, or by indirect fire, or air support, or the like.

 

[KriegHund]

The old SA-80 was a POS, reportadly

But it seems to be fixed now.

The G-36 was adopted by the german army. They didnt particularly have to push for a new rifle- unlike say the original m-16. I therefore believe it is at least battle worthy. Time will tell.

And the FAMAS, the only thing that concerns me is its high ROF compared to other rifles.

Lets go do some googling...

Google sucks...i got something about airsoft.

 

[Oleg Volk]

During the last range session, we had several AR15 and an M16 which ran...and a G36C which did not, failing to extract or to eject often enough to be a bother. I think calling AR15 unreliable junk compare to G36 isn't always accurate.

 

[ctdonath]

I'm with madmike. In my limited experience, the M1:
- risks chomping the user's thumb off
- clips are 8-or-none
- trying to get rounds into the clip is a pain
- is needlessly heavy for us smaller guys.

Not trying to prolong the debate, just voting the M1, er, not exactly among the best of today. (Had its day, now past.)

 

[madmike]

I want a G11! Curse Ronald Reagan for killing it!

 

[mustanger98]

- risks chomping the user's thumb off

I noticed somebody said they've not had this happen. This has also been my experience. I've heard it happens when you're not paying attention and that can happen with any rifle.

- clips are 8-or-none

I don't know about everybody else, but I like the 8rd clip system. I know whether my rifle's loaded or not that way. PING Load another clip.

- trying to get rounds into the clip is a pain

Not in my experience. I've had a worse time loading 20 and 30 round mags.

- is needlessly heavy for us smaller guys.

That weight, well, I don't know about you smaller guys, but that weight, along with that gas system, soaks up .30-06 recoil. I like it.

BTW, Denmark, among a few other countries still issues the Garand, so I wouldn't say its day is past. If in doubt about the thickness of an enemy's armor, load with AP or AP/I if you can get it.

I shoot 5.56 too, but not in a AR15. (I shoot Mini-14, but that's not a service rifle.) I wouldn't want to get shot with it either, but will it turn cover into concealment? My associations with a bunch of combat vets says it won't reliably do it. Does that make it a bad round? No.

As to AR15 vs. G36, I wouldn't have the confidence in those that I have in M1 and M14.

 

[madmike]

I noticed somebody said they've not had this happen. This has also been my experience. I've heard it happens when you're not paying attention and that can happen with any rifle.

It is common enough it has a name, and it DOESN'T happen with any other rifle.

I don't know about everybody else, but I like the 8rd clip system. I know whether my rifle's loaded or not that way. PING Load another clip.

Or just carry a larger magazine, change during the breaks or when the bolt locks back. And you don't have to lower the weapon from sight plane to do so.

Not in my experience. I've had a worse time loading 20 and 30 round mags.

That was in reference to loading rounds into the clip in the weapon. It's open on top but can't be topped off easily.

As to AR15 vs. G36, I wouldn't have the confidence in those that I have in M1 and M14.

Confidence in the Garand or M14 would ONLY be if I were taking single long range shots. And I can do that better with an AR10 or Remington 700.

 

[mustanger98]

A Garand isn't the only rifle capable of eating fingers. The first thing my Daddy told me when I was a kid around a Remington 742 was to keep to keep my fingers out of the action.

Or just carry a larger magazine, change during the breaks or when the bolt locks back. And you don't have to lower the weapon from sight plane to do so.

Depends on what you're using. Not everybody here is restricted to the M16 platform.

That was in reference to loading rounds into the clip in the weapon.

I read it as actually loading rounds into clips (before loading the rifle) as opposed to loading mags. I'm not in the habit of topping off a mag in a rifle either, although I know the M14 is set up with a stripper clip guide.

If somebody don't have confidence in a weapon, I'd say they don't need it. I like my M1. Never cared for AR's. Always liked a good bolt gun, but my pick would be a M70 in .308 or .30-06 and FWIW Carlos Hathcock used a M70 in '06 with a 3x9 Redfield IIRC during his career as a sniper. Not saying a M700 ain't good too.

 

[cracked butt]

It is common enough it has a name, and it DOESN'T happen with any other rifle.

You've never heard of of an AG-42b or a Hakim have you? What those things can do to fingers makes the M1 look like a child's toy. The only way you can get your thumb stuck in an M1 is if you are doing something incorrectly or have a lapse in attention- two things that don't mix with any firearm. Even if the bolt were to slam shut while loading it correctly, the bolt will push your thumb out of the way.

To keep the thread on track, I vote for the SA-80.

 

[madmike]

Never heard of an AG42B.

Hakim's eat case rims and slam bolts. Good contender. Or bad, as the case may be. And Socialist Sweden got the Egyptians to pony up for the factory and all gear. Who says capitalism is dead?

I wasn't "doing something wrong." I was inserting a clip for a deceased veteran's three volleys, and it stuck. I pressed to get it in, it went in and slammed on my thumb. Blood soaked parade glove, and I didn't utter a word or make an expression until I was back on the bus.

Luckily, the rifle had been stowed by someone else, because I would have tossed that worthless piece of @#$%#@ under the wheels.

We used Garands for about 3 months. They were fresh from an arsenal rework. Finally, we got tired of having two people fire each volley (of 3) with #7 in reserve in case NEITHER rifle of the two worked, smashed thumbs, clips springing out and flinging brass across the landscape, etc.

We went back to M16s. May not have looked as traditional, but at least the damned things worked and fired.

When I shoot a Garand now I use both hands to load. Not going to risk smashing the thumbs I make a living off.

The one I most recently shot was something I shipped to a friend--all original Korean War in near mint condition, with papers. Shot great. Still didn't get my fingers near the bolt.

I have no idea what was wrong with ours, but they were fresh from Rock Island Arsenal and were utter crap. If I hadn't shot better ones since, I'd wonder why anyone liked it.

But it's still no better than third rate in modern context. Wonderful period piece. No longer relevant. Just my opinion.

 

[only1asterisk]

You've never heard of of an AG-42b or a Hakim have you? What those things can do to fingers makes the M1 look like a child's toy.

You got that right!

David

 

[Tony Williams]

If you're carrying an M4 right handed and you need to peek around a corner to the right, you can transition the M4 to your weak shoulder and peek around. You just can't do that with an L85.

It seems that this is not universally regarded as important. Someone posted this on another board recently:

'See Marine Corps Reference Publication 3-01a Rifle Marksmanship, page 6-5 "Firing from the Right or Left Side of Cover" (Complete with picture)

To minimize exposure and maximize the cover’s protection, a right-handed Marine should fire from the right side of cover and a left-handed Marine should fire from the left side, if possible (see fig. 6-11). If, however, a right-handed Marine must fire from the left side of cover, he fires right-handed but adjusts his position behind cover and uses the rollout technique (see para. 6003) to engage the target. See figure 6-12.'

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[Tony Williams]

Considering the FBI decided that the G-36 was not as good as the M-4A1 after testing, I will rest my case on that.

Hmm. And how much extended desert warfare do they engage in?

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[cracked butt]

I wasn't "doing something wrong." I was inserting a clip for a deceased veteran's three volleys, and it stuck. I pressed to get it in, it went in and slammed on my thumb. Blood soaked parade glove, and I didn't utter a word or make an expression until I was back on the bus.

You are a much tougher guy than I am then

I smashed a thumb once, and it was when I was when I carelessly closed the action while the rifle was sitting on my workbench, I screamed like a girl.

When you loaded the rifle, did you use the edge of your hand to hold the charging handle back? Therein lies the secret to loading the M1. I've loaded numerous clips while sitting or prone shooting matches and never smashed a thumb that way.

 

[madmike]

. If, however, a right-handed Marine must fire from the left side of cover, he fires right-handed but adjusts his position behind cover and uses the rollout technique (see para. 6003) to engage the target. See figure 6-12.[/I]'

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

This assumes said shooter is INCAPABLE of switching sides, rather than being considered "not important."

By that same criterion, a left-handed shooter would be deemed unable to use the L85 at all.

Many shooters are some degree of ambisinistrous (meaning "both left" as we all know left dominance is the NORMAL state of affairs. ) and make advantage of that fact.

An argument of "I can't so let's not worry about it" isn't very helpful. An extrapolated argument of "I can't so you shouldn't" is not really useful either.

But let's do a fair test. Everyone right handed, shoot left handed next time you go to the range. Reverse your hands for loading, shooting, aiming, clearing, everything. Shouldn't be too hard. Just a matter of training, right?

 

[madmike]

When you loaded the rifle, did you use the edge of your hand to hold the charging handle back? Therein lies the secret to loading the M1. I've loaded numerous clips while sitting or prone shooting matches and never smashed a thumb that way.

Well, I tried. I know that's the theory. The stuck clip and bolt catch had other ideas.

But, sorry, Mr Garand, if you require me to stick my fingers into a mechanism propelled by a strong spring and mess with the part that retains it to operate your device, your design is DEFECTIVE.

Think about it: today, it would be required to have warning signs, guards, and a manual safety cutoff to prevent it from happening.

And in this case, they'd be correct.