Would you ever aim to injure instead of kill?

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Answerguy, sounds like you need to experience shooting something besides paper. I have often shot living targets and observed no reaction. Shooting to stop takes determination. Stop means "to end". This neighbor coming after me has a bad temper and a shotgun? I would have no faith that a halfhearted defense would end such a threat against me.

I have no problem with someone I love killing me if I give them good reason. I could forfiet my right to defense if I don't deserve to live. Medications? Like aspirin and cough syrup? Yeah, we got those. :D I distance myself from insanity but I'll defend myself against anyone crazy enough to hunt me down. Madications (sp) are no excuse.
 
Ryder said:
Answerguy, sounds like you need to experience shooting something besides paper. I have often shot living targets and observed no reaction. Shooting to stop takes determination. Stop means "to end". This neighbor coming after me has a bad temper and a shotgun? I would have no faith that a halfhearted defense would end such a threat against me.

I have no problem with someone I love killing me if I give them good reason. I could forfiet my right to defense if I don't deserve to live. Medications? Like aspirin and cough syrup? Yeah, we got those. :D I distance myself from insanity but I'll defend myself against anyone crazy enough to hunt me down. Madications (sp) are no excuse.
I guess I'll have to go down to the old folks home and do some target shooting.:uhoh:
 
IMO I can't imagine a shot intended to wound rather than kill... even after reading all of this thread.

I agree wholeheartedly with Col. Cooper's rules of firearms handling, #2 of which states; "NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY You may not wish to to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To Allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such."


To me, this has both practical and legal truths bound into it.

Practical: I don't believe anyone is as accurate in a real world situation as they are on the range. There are simply too many variables in a real world situation adding up to an imperfect firing solution that prevent "perfect" shooting. Compare that to a range situation where as many variables as possible are taken into account and you're putting your rounds into any part of the target you wish.

Legal: Both "I shot to wound him, really officer!" and "I shot to kill him, really officer!" are double-edged swords in a court of law (both points have been adequately illustrated in this thread). Bottom line, if you do shoot someone there's going to be a jury (either a Grand Jury deciding whether or not to press charges, or a Jury of your peers deciding whether or not your guilty) deciding your fate. Depending on your local laws your fate is going to ride on the judgement of your community. To me - that decision may fall either way, but personally I'm not willing to give that decision to others until I have firmly convinced myself that there was ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER way out besides pulling the trigger. If I were to make that decision there is NO way I'd be in a position to shoot to wound.
 
I guess I'll have to go down to the old folks home and do some target shooting.

I'll assume that's funny. A hunting license costs practically nothing. Plenty of woods in this state. Just don't be surprised when the things you wound decide not to stop for you. You'll be going home empty handed without that determination I spoke of :)
 
seriously though

shoot a leg or arm and you'll just die anyway. how come people who think shooting to wound is a viable id
 
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seriously though

shoot a leg or arm and you'll just die anyway. how come people who think shooting to wound is a viable idea never heard of the femoral artery?

unless your a super sniper lone ranger gene autry and can shoot a hand gun out of the hand of a moving bad guy you will probably hit the femoral...
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you will kill the guy, if you miss you will hit the toddler behind grandpa & everyone will say "what a reckless stupid gun owner, could't even hit the old man and he missed and killed the 2 yr old behind him.:cuss:
 
GEM said:
Let's think about altruism. If the house was on fire, you might run into it to save your child. Folks have died doing that. If your child is nuts and waving a weapon, gun fighting doctrine dictates that you won't take a risk with a leg shot to avoid using a more possibly lethal shot? Or you are not willing a trial on the basis you assaulted your child who was trying to kill you but you weren't justified in the leg shot as you should have tried to 'stop' your child with a COM - the mind boogles.

Forget it GEM, nobody here is willing to concede the following:
1. People whom you really, REALLY don't want to die, can sometimes pose a temporary though lethal threat.
2. Sometimes a firearm is available and is the only practical means of ending or lessening the threat.
3. You may be willing to accept some consequences, legal or physical, if things don't go exactly as planned, in the interest of giving both of you the best chance at survival.

We've heard people say it's not defensible in court. We've heard people say it's not guaranteed effective. We've heard people say that there is one and only one response to a lethal threat, and that is with lethal force. We've heard people say, in that case, they wouldn't use a gun, but would put their military kung-fu mojo moves on the person, conveniently avoiding the question. We've heard people say that if Grandpa had a bad reaction to the medicine his doctor prescribed, well, that's HIS problem now, isn't it.

The question was, how to maximize the chance of both people surviving the encounter when one poses a deadly threat, and the only practical means of defense requires the use of a firearm. No one seems to have any answers, because this requires thinking outside the box. Most responders seem to want to spout macho rhetoric, or dismiss the question altogether, because it lies outside the realm of their training or experience.

Admittedly, it's a rare combination of circumstances, but these things can and do happen. The fact that several plausible scenarios have been posted in this thread is ample evidence of the ammunition Mr. Murphy has at his disposal. Wish we could get some constructive comments instead of posturing and avoidance, but the chances of that are looking slim.
 
This is why I usually avoid the "What would you do" threads. There is rarely an 'either or' answer that I can honestly give. I've been through a lot of situations in my life and I've learned that 'terrain and situation', so to speak, dictate what my response will be. There are just too many variables to take into account.
Biker
 
Using the firearm would not maximize both person's chances of survival. It maximizes the shooter's chances, but it decreases the shootee's chances of survival. No one is saying you can't try to use a gun to wound, but some of you can't seem to grasp the fact that a firearm is not the best option for what you wish to accomplish (everyone surviving the encounter).
 
bruss01 said;

Most responders seem to want to spout macho rhetoric, or dismiss the question altogether, because it lies outside the realm of their training or experience.

This is what my training and experience says to do in this situation. Call for backup. First off, you'll need several friends to isolate the area to make certain no bystanders and rubberneckers wander in. Then you'll need a friend with a less lethal weapon, taser, 12 gauge shotgun with bean-bag rounds, 37 or 40mm weapon with beanbag or baton rounds. He'll need to bring a couple of friends to physically take down the old man with the shotgun after you use your less lethal weapon on him.

The THR member in the first post will continue to cover the old man with his firearm. It's his duty to shoot the old man, should the less lethal option have less then optimal effect and the old man presents a danger to himself or others. The other three frinds will position themselves so that they can hit the old man with their less lethal option and are close enough to to rush him and physically control him after he's hit with the bean bag or taser.

Now our original scenario doesn't mention any of those options being available. In fact they aren't available to all police departments. And they aren't a perfect solution. None of the less lethal options are sure things. Tasers have failed. 12 Gauge beanbag rounds can be very ineffective. Even the 37 and 40mm beanbags are not guaranteed to kncok the subject down or stun him.

If those options aren't available then you're left with disengaging or resorting to lethal force.

In case anyone has forgotten, here is the scenario as originally posted:

For example; you've had a dispute with an elderly neighbor, he goes inside and comes back outside with a shotgun. He's not pointing it at you yet and you're trying to defuse the situation with reasonable talk. He's not listening to reason and starts to raise the gun. (Somehow) you know that you can aim and fire before he can level the gun at you.

The way I see it, you can use the NIKE defense when he starts to raise the shotgun, or you can shoot to stop. Even with a standard engagement scenario where you are armed with a handgun, there is a good chance he's going to get a round off at you.

With all the examples that have been posted here in Strategies and Tactics and in the other forums about how ineffective handguns are at immediately stopping a person, all of the threads where members argue 9mm v. 45, all of the what is the best round for this or that threads, I find it hard to believe that people are believing that they can end an encounter with trick shots that don't severely injure anyone and even advocating that. :confused:

Jeff
 
In the old man scenario, fleeing or the best possible shots make sense. The nuance was that in later scenarios, the value of the shooter was such that folks wanted to try other options at risk to themselves or even others.

I have to admit to a strange fascination to playing this game as it comes out of the literature on moral decisions that uses a lot of counterfactuals to test what seem to be absolute beliefs.

Let's say that your loved one who is seriously depressed (probably biological in nature) picks up a knife and is waving it wildly.

You can flee out of the house and call the law
You can shoot them in COM
You can shoot them in the dreaded leg (note - I don't think anyone advocates that this is not a serious or potentially lethal wound - it just seems to be a bit less so than in the noggin)
You can continue to talk and dodge. NO OC around.


Calling the law on the surface makes sense until you think that the law will arrive and perhaps kill the person given all the doctrine we have spoken of, esp. for LEOs who have to consider the entire picture. If they shot the person, like the old man, I would defend the decision.

I really don't think the loved one situation is equivalent to the old man (unless it is Grandpa but this guy is just a neighbor). Theories of altruism and action towards others all have the value of the person as a variable.

So trick shots are being advocated as some kind of ninja overestimation of skill or without knowledge of the nuances of shooting.

Real folks have been there with the loved one scenario and chose the risky talky branch rather than calling the law. Would one do the 'leg' shot? Potential has been there but it didn't happen.

As Buss01 postulated and I did also, it is possible to construct branches that don't lead to automatic doctrine.
 
First, I'd like certain posters in this thread to note that this is The High Road, and implications that we're not agreeing with you because we're too "simplistic" or aren't "deep enough thinkers" are unnecessary, and kinda resented on my part. So please watch it.

Moving on, I would ask those who support "shooting to wound" to make at least SOME determination of how likely a wounding shot will "maximize both chances" for survival. Keep in mind these things:

1) As said before, no bullet wound is safe - bullets, handgun bullets especially, do not move in straight lines through the body. People have been shot in the shoulder and hit in the aorta. Others have been shot in the head and had the bullet simply curve around the scalp and exit with little damage. Any shot at a person carries a very non-trivial risk of death.

2) The chances of incapacitation are already low with COM handgun shots, and "wounding" shots even more so. Keep in mind the targets needed to physically incapacitate an attacker (by the very nature of the scenarios postulated, these are folks who are temporarily psychotic/impaired, and won't have the "Oh God I'm shot I give up!" psychological reaction a rational attacker would). In order of importance:
a) CNS (destroying the brain or spine)
b) circulatory system (massive blood loss causing loss of conciousness)
c) immobilization due to destruction of some part of the skeletal system
The first two targets are out, since they involve COM shots and a high risk of death. The third target is a distant third in choice, both for the size of the aimpoint and the likelyhood of the desired effect.

Look, suppose you want to stop someone with a knife, so you aim at their shoulder. But, see, you're not aiming at their shoulder, but at a specific target within the shoulder - AFAIK the best choice for you to aim at that might immobilize it is the shoulder joint capsule. This is, at best a target of about an inch square. Only by destroying that will you have any reasonable chance of immediately immobilizing the joint. If you miss this small target, you either hit the muscle (causing no immediate immobilization), shoulder bone (ditto), subclavical artery (which might incapacitate, but only through bleeding - which is what we don't want as that means a high risk of death), enter the thorasic cavity and probably hit a lung (ditto), or miss entirely (meaning who knows what - or who - you'll hit).

Fine, let's say you want to hit them in the pelvis instead - it's a larger target, after all. Shattering pelvis FTW! Well, no. See, while you may be able to better hit the larger pelvis than the shoulder joint, that doesn't mean it'll actually do anything useful. The human pelvis is a very strong and tough bone - it has to be to support and distribute our weight through a lifetime of walking. In fact, in the distant past when I was taking my EMT class in college, I was told by the instructors how to recognize a broken pelvis in a car accident victim. I was then told by these instructors that I needed to essentially ignore the broken pelvis, because a broken pelvis implied that the victim had been hit with enough force that it was a virtual certainty they would have more severe and life-threatening injuries for me to treat.

And you're going to "shatter" this with a handgun bullet? Unless you've got your .454 Casull as your carry piece, I think it more likely that you will do one of the following: imbed the bullet in the bone for little effect; deflect the bullet into who-knows-where (the abdominal cavity which may kill but won't incapacitate?, the femoral artery causing rapid bleed-out and death?); or, of course, you may miss. Even supposing you do hit and perforate the pelvis, it is by no means certain to cause immobilization in a determined attacker, unless the bone undergoes massive multiple fractures. And in that case - the best case given here - you've just put a lot of sharp bone shards next to, guess what?, the highly vulnerable femoral artery that if damaged will probably result in death. How much chance does little Billy or Grandpa really have now?

All that with a handgun. Under stress. Look, here's the thing - you can certainly come up with scenarios so far-fetched, unlikely, and artificial as to lead us to a wound-or-COM choice, I'll grant you that. But unless y'all stop assuming that a wounding shot "maximizes both our chances for surviving", and actually start giving some solid reasons as to why (and why it's not simply one huge gamble with both your lives), you're not going to convince me.

As for my choices...if, given the situations shown, I valued my life over that of the target, then I would shoot. If, instead, I valued my target's life over my own, then I would not shoot!. Not because I've been brainwashed by the gun rags into binary decision logic trees, but because I think a "wounding shot" reduces the risk of the target's (or other innocent's) death by too little, and reduces the chance of incapacitation of the attacker by too much. I would take whatever other, non-lethal, action was available to me.

Feel free to convince me otherwise...but please don't belittle me while doing so.
 
TX deadly force laws do not allow you to use deadly force in self defense unless you reasonably believe that it is immediately necessary to prevent certain specified crimes.

The key is that the person using the deadly force MUST "reasonably believe" that immediate application of deadly force is required. Because of the way the law is stated, it is NOT ENOUGH for the other circumstances to be met.

REGARDLESS of the situation, if YOU do not reasonably believe that deadly force is immediately required, you are NOT justified legally in using deadly force.

Shooting to wound would very likely be seen as an admission that you did not reasonably believe deadly force was immediately required. In that case, your actions would be seen as your admission (by the definition of the law) that deadly force was not justified.
 
then I would shoot. If, instead, I valued my target's life over my own, then I would not shoot!.
Best most concise answer I have seen yet.

Deadly force
Either use it or don't there is no in between
 
I disagree--I think your quote is more concise and a better summary of the topic. ;)
joab said:
Deadly force: Either use it or don't--there is no in between.
 
Heh. We can talk scenarios all day :). It's a bit silly really 'cept it's fun :D.

Here's a good one: some nutcase is fighting a cop and winning. Cop is on the ground on his back, nutcase is bent over him and both parties have BOTH their hands (four total) on the cop's gun...which is still in it's holster. Basically the nut is desperately trying to get the gun, the cop has other ideas.

The nut doesn't have deadly force in hand YET but if he does, he's liable to kill everybody in sight.

And being bent over, the portion of the nutcase's body furthest away from the cop (esp. if you can line up a side shot) is his butt.

Assuming a decent backstop in that direction, do you shoot the nut in the butt, hoping that'll distract him and let the cop regain control?

OK, it's an oddball but yeah, we can come up with a weird situation calling for a wounding shot :p.

It's still silly.
 
JohnKSa said:
Shooting to wound would very likely be seen as an admission that you did not reasonably believe deadly force was immediately required. In that case, your actions would be seen as your admission (by the definition of the law) that deadly force was not justified.

That just makes me laugh. The thought that some people think you can be in more legal trouble by wounding than by killing just strikes me as funny. It's only an admission if you admit to it.

If the prosecutor asked " Were you in fear for your life before you shot Mr Smith in the shoulder?"
and you answer 'no', then of course you're going to have legal problems. But if you say 'yes'
the next question might be "Well then why did you deliberately aim to wound by shooting at his shoulder?" My reply might be "Even though I was convinced that the old man was going to try to kill me I still did not want to kill him, I only wanted to stop him from shooting at me".

You be the prosecutor and ask the next question (or re-ask the first question if you like).
 
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Assuming a decent backstop in that direction, do you shoot the nut in the butt, hoping that'll distract him and let the cop regain control?
I think the premise behind shooting center mass is that you are shooting at the largest available target. According to the health reports I've heard on the radio lately the butt would be a viable option for most Americans these days
 
joab said:
I think the premise behind shooting center mass is that you are shooting at the largest available target. According to the health reports I've heard on the radio lately the butt would be a viable option for most Americans these days
:p
 
answerguy said:
That just makes me laugh. The thought that some people think you can be in more legal trouble by wounding than by killing just strikes me as funny. It's only an admission if you admit to it.
It may seem funny, but it's the way the law is written. And it's not that you would be in more trouble for "wounding" than for "killing", it is that you would be in more trouble for "shooting to wound" since that can remove your justification for using deadly force in the first place.

And YES, of course you are correct, it's only an issue if they can PROVE you were shooting to wound--i.e. you admit to it. They can't prosecute you for missing center of mass--there's no requirement in the deadly force laws that you be a good shot.

Ok, so getting back to your original question, the answer has already been given. If the situation doesn't warrant deadly force, then it doesn't warrant shooting at all. If the situation warrants deadly force then partial measures are extremely unwise and could result in your death, the death of the person you're "shooting to wound", and possibly the death of others. A shoulder wound, or arm wound, or whatever wound is unlikely to incapacitate a person to the point that they are unable to use a firearm, and at the same time such a wound may still be lethal.

You say: "I certainly don't want him to kill me, but on the other had I don't want to live with the guilt of having killed an old man. What to do?"

What to do is to shoot center of mass until the threat no longer exists. Anything else gives him a good chance of killing you which you said you don't want. If you can't live with the guilt, then don't shoot AT ALL. Because even a shoulder wound could easily kill him. It's not called "deadly force" for nothing.

joab's quote was dead on the money and is worth repeating.

"Deadly force: Either use it or don't--there is no in between."
 
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