Would you feel safe with an m1 garand in grizzly country?

[Ranger30-06]

Personally, I would take a 12 gauge loaded with Brenneke 3" black magic slugs. Why beat up a heavy, nice rifle in a relatively light caliber for brown bear when you could have a lighter package with an excellent bear stopper.

These are the bear stopping ultimatum. Yea a .30-06 may be a rifle, but face the facts: You aren't hunting the bear, so any bear you have to shoot will be coming towards you. A .45 ACP? Please. Just leave it at home.

 

[CraigC]

These are the bear stopping ultimatum.

With the sectional density of a 230gr .45ACP, which is the subject of this thread.

 

[Ranger30-06]

With the sectional density of a 230gr .45ACP, which is the subject of this thread.

Your comparing a 230gr bullet moving at ~900 fps to a solid lead slug that weighs over 490gr moving at ~1500 fps. Sectional density or not, the 12 gauge slug beats the .45 ACP any day of the week.

 

[CraigC]

It weighs 602gr.

Sectional density, along with construction is what determines penetration. Weight is immaterial. It could be 1000gr but if it's 2" in diameter it ain't gonna penetrate. This ain't rocket science and there's nothing magic about the slug that allows it to transcend the laws of terminal ballistics. Look at all the best stopping cartridges like the 300gr .375H&H, 400gr .450/.400, 500gr .458, etc. They all have one thing in common, sectional densities of .300 or greater.

Bottom line is that for whatever goofy reason, people 'think' that "slugs are badass" and that seems to be enough for them to shelve all logic and reason.

 

[Cosmoline]

However it is difficult if not impossible to wade fish in a fast moving Alaskan river with a shotgun on your shoulder

There are a bunch of scabbards on the market for exactly this purpose, and they work great.

Bottom line is that for whatever goofy reason, people 'think' that "slugs are badass" and that seems to be enough for them to shelve all logic and reason

No, the bottom line is slugs have killed a great many large bears. Hardcast magnums are excellent close range medicine and I've never heard any complaints about a lack of penetration. You seem to think brown bear are cape buff, but they are actually thin skinned. And the size, hardness and diameter of the slug are important factors in breaking bones to stop a charge. There are many accounts of magnum handguns failing to stop bears, but not with hardcast slugs. I have no doubt that a major factor is the difficulty of aiming a short gun in these conditions, but certainly the smaller diameter and lower power have a role to play.

If you're looking for hard data:

Brenneke slugs are frequently discussed as having significantly superior penetration characteristics as compared to other high velocity slugs. Our gelatin testing support these claims and uncovers some other interesting performance characteristics that merit consideration when selecting a slug.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958#ixzz1ZGX8nltL

 

[HOWARD J]

10 gage shotgun with slugs
If not available---an ak-47 or Mini 30 with Chinese steel core bullets 30 round Mag.

 

[CraigC]

I'm not saying that slugs won't work. All I'm saying is that they are not the best tool for the job, nor are they a huge step up from handguns. At best, they are "good enough". I don't know about you guys, but when it's between becoming an old man and being eaten alive by a grizzly, "good enough" ain't good enough. I'm saying that they are oft-recommended not because they are the best tool for the job but because everybody and their uncle has at least one pump 12ga shotgun. If not, they're plentiful and cheap. Even the USFS would rather issue .375's than shotguns but cannot due to cost.

Weight is incredibly important.

Not all by itself.


Here's a shot of your precious Brenneke next to two real penetrators. On the left, a 355gr .44, in the middle a 425gr .475.



The slug looks very imposing until you realize that a third of it is hollow and that there is a round hole that goes almost all the way through the nose. Either of those two handguns bullets at 1200-1300fps will penetrate twice as deep and break any major bones along the way. Both have a much, much higher SD than any shotgun slug available (even the monstrous Dixies) but neither approach that of a traditional stopping rifle.

 

[Ranger30-06]

It weighs 602gr.

Sectional density, along with construction is what determines penetration. Weight is immaterial. It could be 1000gr but if it's 2" in diameter it ain't gonna penetrate. This ain't rocket science and there's nothing magic about the slug that allows it to transcend the laws of terminal ballistics. Look at all the best stopping cartridges like the 300gr .375H&H, 400gr .450/.400, 500gr .458, etc. They all have one thing in common, sectional densities of .300 or greater.

You need to look at the whole picture here: Even a 1000gr 2" slug could yield better penetration, if it was launched at 8,000 fps. Sectional density is just one factor. Figure in speed, weight, and point and you have the entire picture.

Bottom line is that for whatever goofy reason, people 'think' that "slugs are badass" and that seems to be enough for them to shelve all logic and reason

It's not a thought, its the fact that hundreds of hunters/hikers/campers have killed brown bears with 12 gauge slugs. Heck, it's even recommended by the Alaskan game commission! This isn't about picking the biggest, baddest gun in the woods, it's about picking the right tool for the job.

• Fact: The .30-06 is borderline okay for hunting, not defending against brown bears
• Fact: An M1 Garand is heavy and unwieldy for a backpacking/fishing trip
• Fact: The .44 Remington Magnum is the smallest handgun caliber okay for bear protection
• Fact: 12 gauge slugs have saved plenty of lives from bears
• Fact: A 12 gauge pump action with an 18" bbl will weigh on average 1/2 that of a Garand and be reliable in almost any conditions

Conclusion:

1. If your going to take a rifle, the minimum is a .300 WM with a heavy bullet (Alaskan Game Commission)
2. If your going to take a shotgun, a 12 gauge with heavy 3" slugs is usually the best, easiest, and cheapest option
3. If your going to take a handgun, the minimum is a .44 Magnum

 

[Cosmoline]

You're too hung up on sectional density and penetration. Any of the three projectiles you have there will penetrate enough if thrown at sufficient velocity. All are hardcast and will expand very little. The slug has the advantage of greater surface area and the disadvantage of terrible BC, but that's not a factor in DLP shootings. In fact you don't want a projectile that will keep cooking for hundreds of yards.

The problem with handguns is they're difficult to aim in the circumstances, and a great many misses have been recorded in real life charges even by very experienced shooters.

I'm also waiting to see the gel testing showing that hardcast slugs fail to penetrate enough. The ones I've seen show them blasting through one whole block and well into the next, chewing a very large hole in the process. Works for me.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Been to AK many times both hunting and fishing. Had a few encounters with Brownies. About 70% of the time any charges were false charges (which is one reason the authorities want you to hold off shooting till like 15 yards or so) by young males. The most dangerous Brown Bear in the woods is by far a female hunting with her cub or cubs in tow. Very rarely will a female false charge. If one is coming at you, you can pretty much bet you are going to get rolled. Older males will either bug out at first sight of you or they will simply ignore you and go about their fishing. If you have an older male around you, simply keep a close eye on him and make no fast movements. They will generally leave you alone. Just be on your toes just in case. Some will get territorial. They will false charge you to intimidate.

As far as the best medicine for a charging Brownie? Well as many others have said, the 12 gauge slug has been highly effective (even though a few paper people seem to think it wouldn't do anything) at stopping Big Bruins dead in their tracks. Personally, I carry the 4" S&W .500 on my side. Very accurate with it out to 25 yards loaded up with 500gr Hard casts. I would have no worries whatsoever facing down a Rhino attack with this on my side. I've punched through 6x6 pressure treated posts with it so I don't believe it would have any difficulty at all in punching through the skull of a Bruin.

Just remember, you are in THEIR territory and you should respect that. Just because one growls at you does not give you the right to fire. Use good judgement and only fire as a last resort.

 

[DM~]

Hand any AVERAGE hunter/fisherman off the street a heavy loaded 44mag. or larger cartridge handgun, have them run 25 yards and then fire at a pie plate 50 feet away... Do it again with a shotgun and slugs, and see what happens!

You handgun guys can argue all you want that YOU and YOUR load is better than a 12ga and slugs. Don't make a bit of difference cuz the average guy isn't YOU!

I've been shooting 44 mags since the 70's, i spent 25 years in Alaska around brown bears, and much of it hunting brown bears. I was the guy that more than a few times went in to clean up someone elses big bear mess, and i STILL never depended on my handgun as my primary weapon.

Today, IF i was the OP makeing the trip the OP is thinking about, i'd be carrying a 12ga. and slugs... Could i design something specifically better for ME, sure i could, but nothing is better than a 12ga/slugs for 99.9% of the folks faceing a big bear problem.

All of the "my handgun/load is better than your 12ga/slugs", in this case, is just blowing smoke!

DM

 

[CraigC]

I'm also waiting to see the gel testing showing that hardcast slugs fail to penetrate enough.

Linebaugh's penetration testing, posted on the Dixie site, shows that their heavyweight 730gr slugs (which make Brenneke's look sad) penetrate about equal to a .44cal. 250gr Keith bullet fired at 1200fps. Which makes plenty of sense according to my infallable deductible reasoning, as their SD is equal to that of the Keith bullet.

So, is the .44Spl enough gun for brown bear??? If a .430" hole is big enough, the SD of a 250gr bullet is high enough, 25" of penetration in paper is deep enough and 1200fps is fast enough, then the .44Spl should be plenty.

I've gone through all the technical details several times before. I'm not doing it again. You guys never provide any real evidence. Only quoting a very misleading, outdated and invalid USFS testing report. Along with worshipping the energy/velocity gods. I just don't have the time or patience to go through it all again.

Given the choice, I'll take a levergun in .44Mag, .45Colt, .454Casull, .480Ruger, .405WCF, .444Marlin or .45/70 any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

DM~, nobody said a thing about handguns being better for bear defense than long guns. Their advantage is that they are portable, packable and can be kept on the hip 100% of the time. You can't carry a rifle everywhere, all the time.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I've been living around bears for most of 25 years and now live in between two salmon streams and have "encounters" with bears every few days during the summer.

Your Garand would be entirely suitable, if you're willing to drag all that weight around. But, let me point out that in Alaska it's liable to rain every single day. Also, during high tides those salmon streams are flooded with salt water. I would not want to expose a collectible firearm to such conditions if I had something else. I carry a cheap shotgun.

 

[tahunua001]

the M1 will be more than sufficient but me being the cautious type would recommend loading some +p loads just in case. the 1911, would be very marginal for a charging pissoft grizzly but I'd rather have 7, 230gr hydrashoks ready to go should the m1 fail. you could always pullthe bullets drop in a little extra powder and make your own +p 230 hydrashok loads too.

 

[sixgunner455]

A stainless Ruger Super Redhawk (especially one with a 3" barrel specifically designed for this) would be a more appealing choice to me than that Taurus. I've handles one, and been impressed by it. Handled a lightweight S&W .44 Mag, one of the mostly titanium ones, and, while I'm impressed that they can build it, you couldn't pay me to shoot it.

I would carry a 12gauge with slugs, and a .44 Redhawk (or perhaps a .454) with some lighter loads along for messing around with, shooting ptarmigan, etc. Just makes more sense to me.

 

[memphisjim]

can you imagine how many posts youll have to deal with if you come back from alaska having killed a bear with a m1
you'd be my hero and if you got it on tape youd be rich

 

[FlyinBryan]

well, i liked the lightweight revolver in 44 mag because it weighs almost exactly the same as my ccw, a aluminum framed 4"1911. so i figured it would be the one that would feel "normal" to me, as far as being willing to pack it on my person all day everyday.

i dont have a pump shotgun, but i do have a remington 1100 with a 22" barrel that holds 5+1, but it only takes 2 3/4" shells. it isnt rifled, but its very reliable, and not terribly heavy.

 

[Jonny V]

A rifled barrel isn't worth your time. You're (hopefully not) going to be shooting at 10-15 feet, not 100 yards. You can get a magazine extension for your 1100 from Cabelas for about 50 bucks, and your shotgun will hold anywhere from 8-10 rounds. I have one on my full length 870. Might seem to unwieldy for some folks, but I'm pretty big and tall with long arms, the weight don't bother me.

Nothing wrong with 2 3/4 inch slugs. You can even get some of those Monolit steel slugs if you're worried about penetration. The steel slug (cased in plastic to protect your shotgun bore) will penetrate the average V8 engine block. A bear skull has no chance.

I got some of those slugs for home defense. They weigh 1 1/8 ounces and run at about 1350 fps. Very unpleasant to shoot, even worse on the other end

 

[zstephens13]

A lot of 1911 hate in this thread...
I carry one when I hike and fish and I have run into a lot of bears. Most run the second the see you.
A young, curious grizzly stood up when my wife and I rounded a bend while hiking Crow Creek Pass in July. I yelled and acted scary, but he didn't buy it. Fired my 1911 in the ground and he started running so fast he took two steps in the air before he actually took off.

I think people think there is a magically "bear caliber." I would like to get a larger handgun than a 1911 for wildlife, but if it's all you got, carry it.

I think a Garand would be good to kill a bear, but mostly what you will be doing it scaring them away. And that's if they even work up the courage to show themselves to you.

I agree that a shotgun loaded with slugs will probably be the best idea.

 

[FlyinBryan]

Fired my 1911 in the ground and he started running so fast he took two steps in the air before he actually took off.

LOL!!! that was great!!!

i would sure hope that would work because it would really bother me to have to shoot one

 

[mavracer]

I may not have any first hand knowledge of bears but I have seen enough animals run a long way with their lungs and heart shot to hell to think a bear charge is going to be stopped by any body shots. I've also had some experiance with 3 legged animals (veterinary family) to know I can't out run a 3 legged bear. Apparently all these animals haven't watched enough TV to know they're suposed to just follow the script and stop when shot. I know it's gonna take some luck and a lot of nerve but to stop a charge your gonna have to hit Yogi's brain to shut him down. I'm not sure a hot 230gr 45acp wouldn't be enough I'd like to have a little more. I would feel extremely comfortable with my Garand in my hands were there a big bear charging. I wouldn't be very comfortable fishing carrying a 12# Garand. I'd carry my 4" Redhawk and would rather have a Smith than a Taurus. My tracker wasn't reliable with heavy loads.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

can you imagine how many posts youll have to deal with if you come back from alaska having killed a bear with a m1
you'd be my hero and if you got it on tape youd be rich

I do not think a single person has said an M1 could not kill a Brownie, the op was not asking that. He has asked if it would be a reasonable weapon for DEFENSE against a full out charging Brown Bear and the simple answer is no.

Now lets look at what he is to be doing in Alaska. FISHING!!! Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I would find this to be a very difficult task to accomplish with an M1 slung on my back or even a shotgun. As many have said, if fly fishing especially, a long gun would end up on the river/stream bank because trying to efficiently cast with that on your back would be damn well rough. A higher calibre handgun would be the best tool for the job. Either on the side or, as already suggested, a high chest holster.

Hand any AVERAGE hunter/fisherman off the street a heavy loaded 44mag. or larger cartridge handgun, have them run 25 yards and then fire at a pie plate 50 feet away... Do it again with a shotgun and slugs, and see what happens!

DM could you please inform me as to why you would have someone RUN 25 yards then turn and fire please? The reason I ask is, the absolute WORST thing a person can do is RUN away from a charging Brownie. You of all people should already know this. If it was just a false charge and it see's you running it will trigger his "chase reflex" and then you can BET on getting slammed. If a Brownie is approaching you, hold fast. If it starts a charge, draw your weapon, raise your arms and yell and try to intimidate. If it continues charge, aim and fire. Simple survival.

OP, if you do intend to carry a sidearm, you had best put several rounds through it and be sure you can place your rounds very well. Same with a shotgun if you intend to go that route. All these guys suggesting you get an extended magazine and crap like that obviously have no clue what they are talking about. A seriously charging Brown bear can cover some distance in a matter of a couple of seconds. You would be lucky to get off 2 aimed shots with a pump or even a semi so don't bother with that. If that bear is truly charging, and you are acting in LEGAL defense range, trust me when I say, you will not have time for more than one or two.

 

[Cosmoline]

If a Brownie is approaching you, hold fast. If it starts a charge, draw your weapon, raise your arms and yell and try to intimidate. If it continues charge, aim and fire. Simple survival.

It's easy to say this, harder to do it. A lot of these encounters happen in very thick underbrush particularly when you're fishing. It's rare to have an encounter with clear stages where you have time to do anything. So you may suddenly just have an angry bear a few feet from you. Are you going to stand fast? Personally, I'm going to backpedal as quick as possible, yell and try to get a firearm into action. Probably going to get nailed. I just hope it doesn't happen because I don't have much hair left and I don't want the bear to take it away.

I'm not convinced anyone knows whether there's a prey drive/chase reflex at work in these encounters anyway. Most of them are sows, and she wants you out of there.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Now lets look at what he is to be doing in Alaska. FISHING!!! Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I would find this to be a very difficult task to accomplish with an M1 slung on my back or even a shotgun.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

I'm not convinced anyone knows whether there's a prey drive/chase reflex at work in these encounters anyway. Most of them are sows, and she wants you out of there.

With sows, you are indeed correct. As I said previously, they rarely if ever false charge and yelling and screaming often will not offer much in the way of turning her around. Males on the other hand are just being territorial or curious if they pay you any attention at all.

I have never had the thick underbrush encounter because I try to make tons of noise going in and chase them off before I get anywhere near. A sow will take her cubs and move on when they hear noise like that USUALLY. Not to say 100% of the time. All of my encounters have been across stream or downstream with a good bit of distance to be prepared. This is what 95% of people usually encounter as well when salmon fishing. Especially fly fishing. Kind of hard to fly cast in the brush.