Would you sell a pistol you "can't really afford to shoot"? Five Seven.

[barnbwt]

"Blowback vs. Gas operation means much tighter tolerances for safety reasons"
Not super sure what that's supposed to mean, but the blowback guns mean the necks set back a good, frightening .06" or so. The brass is really thick, so it doesn't seem to be an issue from the reading I've done on the subject, but it would definitely freak me out, some.

Like I said before, the small case head + big primer cup means there is very little brass to keep the pocket from opening up after only a couple reloads, leading to loose primers that must be staked (lame). That is something I'd call a true failing of the cartridge itself; the setback and polymer coating are more an issue inherent to the blow-back operation (show me a blow-back 9mm operating at 50ksi that won't need chamber flutes or a Teflon coating )

I personally think what the round really needs, is some good platforms with a true locking breech. That way we can really see what the casing can do, and can reload it the same way we'd do a 22 Hornet or other 'little bitty magnum' . We'd need a donor Coonan or something like that to try this out, though (good luck with that ). At least as far as rifles, I'm working on a design using a falling block action housed in an MP7 Airsoft shell, but methinks that won't be ready for some time

TCB

 

[meanmrmustard]

I wouldn't ammo will sell fast, the gun might not, plus being able to throw in ammo at a good price might make the pistol sell easier.

He's selling on Gunbroker. Now, don't quote me, but I don't believe he can throw in ammo on an auction.

Why would we assume the ammo would sell any faster? The bullets are just as ridiculously priced as the pistol. Best to have the ammo on hand with a price tag on it AND a pistol with which to fire it if need be.

Hate to have that boutique ammo and no gun to shoot it myself...

 

[meanmrmustard]

I'll also add that, while I detest the man, The Yankee Marshal has a very humorous vid of "The Most Worthless Expensive Handgun". You'll only need one guess what it is.

 

[barnbwt]

That dumbass actually said the five-seven was "not very light"

Yeah, it's only lighter loaded than a G17 empty . I couldn't watch any further than that (like 15 seconds in)

"The bullets are just as ridiculously priced as the pistol."
Re-read the last page, please; the cartridges cost exactly the same as quality defense ammo in other common calibers. The problem is people's perception that bullet diameter somehow directly relates to ammo prices, and they don't for a very specialized round like this with very different construction from 9/40/45 (stubby, cheap straight wall brass/steel/aluminum case, cheap round nose bullet with thick FMJ). SS197SR is markedly cheaper than quality 9mm hollow point, at least in my neck of the woods. Those are at least 1$ a round, whereas the 5.7 is around .60; I can understand 9/40/45 shooter's insistence on practicing with something cheaper with duty ammo, but it really isn't as necessary with 5.7

TCB

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I prefer 45 acp in general, but if I could sell that gun and ammo for $2800, I would. Then I'd go buy a full size XDm that holds 19 +1 9mm rounds with a 5.25 inch barrel for about $800 and $550 worth of ammo, and $150 on a high quality holster. The remaining $1300 would be put towards something like paying off debt, or kept for savings.

 

[45_auto]

the cartridges cost exactly the same as quality defense ammo in other common calibers.

Where can you find the cheap practice ammo for the 5.7 like you can for the other common calibers?

Most people I know who actually practice and shoot enough to be good at it wouldn't do it if they were forced to shoot only "quality defense ammo". They'd take the money and go out and buy something equally cheap like a Ferrari or an airplane.

 

[Orion8472]

460Kodiak, I already have a high capacity 9mm in the CZ P-09. I've shot an XDM before, and for me, the CZ wins. I'm much more accurate with the CZ than I was with the XDM pistols I've shot. However, buying more 9mm ammo, after the sale, is a good idea.

 

[TfflHndn]

Sell it, buy a Rock Island 22TCM and 1,000 rounds of ammo for it, and you still have $1500 left over (plus a 9mm barrel to shoot cheaper ammo) and a round that outperforms the FiveseveN.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Gotcha. It kind of comes down to where you are in life. I'm saving for a down payment on a house. So I'd take the money. It's a cool gun and a good round, I've just never really felt that the cost was justified. So the 5.7 is a no go for me.

Good luck.

 

[barnbwt]

Where can you find the cheap practice ammo for the 5.7 like you can for the other common calibers?

Contact your senator and get him to repeal the stupid armor-piercing ammo laws, and we'll have cheap 5.7 ammunition. And again, 5.7 is like 60 cents a round (in quantity) at the high end, 50 or less at the low end. 9mm hollowpoint is like a buck a round or more where I am. No, there's no 10cent/round FMJ ammo because it'd be illegal, but 9mm is only eight bucks or so less per fifty here in NE Texas. My point is the 'extravagant burden' of ammo cost for the cartridge is greatly exaggerated; it's not uncommon to have blowhard posters claim it's 2$ a round at the same time as they claim a 22mag is more powerful

[22TCM]a round that outperforms the FiveseveN.

By the velocity numbers, maybe. Check out some test footage sometime; the TCM bullets aren't anywhere near as terminally destructive in the tests I've seen (they stay together like a good little softpoint; the 5.7 VMAX's shred and tumble. A softpoint 22cal that swells to a gigantic 32cal is pretty pointless, IMO. But that's one reason why the TCM round is a bit cheaper). 22TCM also has a much stubbier bullet that I suspect does not hold the velocity numbers well at range; you can plink at 100 yards with the five-seven and over twice that with the PS90. I don't know if the TCM can say the same (I honestly don't know, but it seems unlikely with the stubby bullet ogive). TCM is a cool round, though, and I think it could do great things if they'd get it some better bullets like Hornady got for FNH.

TCB

 

[meanmrmustard]

That dumbass actually said the five-seven was "not very light"

Yeah, it's only lighter loaded than a G17 empty . I couldn't watch any further than that (like 15 seconds in)

"The bullets are just as ridiculously priced as the pistol."
Re-read the last page, please; the cartridges cost exactly the same as quality defense ammo in other common calibers. The problem is people's perception that bullet diameter somehow directly relates to ammo prices, and they don't for a very specialized round like this with very different construction from 9/40/45 (stubby, cheap straight wall brass/steel/aluminum case, cheap round nose bullet with thick FMJ). SS197SR is markedly cheaper than quality 9mm hollow point, at least in my neck of the woods. Those are at least 1$ a round, whereas the 5.7 is around .60; I can understand 9/40/45 shooter's insistence on practicing with something cheaper with duty ammo, but it really isn't as necessary with 5.7

TCB

No, just no.

After starting to read this thread, I've been to three local gunshops (within a 1/2 hour drive, which is as far as id go for ANY boutique ammunition) only to find 5.7 commanding a premium over .45 acp. So, I'd say that is quite the opposite of theorizing that folks relate diameter to price. Carriers of 5.7 haven't got the memo.

So, while for YOU it may appear comparable in price in your specific locale, it is, as previously stated, overpriced. Let us not forget that ammunition selection in that chambering, no matter what the pro-5.7 fellas say, is very limited. I like options, not ultimatums.

 

[barnbwt]

So, while for YOU it may appear comparable in price in your specific locale, it is, as previously stated, overpriced [in my locale]

(addition mine)
I live in East DFW, TX, with plenty of price-hiking shops, and 5.7 is like 28$ or less for a box of 50 (plus tax, but in larger quantities than a single box you can order with savings to roughly the same 8.75%). The box of 25 9mm Golden Sabres I put through my R51 (individually ) was like 29$+tax at Wal Mart here in town. I'm sure I paid high for those since I didn't look very hard, but they're still at least double. I would submit "duty" cartridge defense ammo is far more overpriced than 5.7 (excluding bootleg SS190, obviously). Yes, 5.7 was stupid crazy nonsense expensive last year, but that was 2013 Banic coupled with an enduring supply crunch courtesy of striking FNH workers in 2012; that has apparently passed at this point (perhaps not nation-wide, though )

Let us not forget that ammunition selection in that chambering, no matter what the pro-5.7 fellas say, is very limited. I like options, not ultimatums.

There's actually a comical number of 5.7 load types out there doing nearly the same thing, but they are essentially custom ammo with truly ridiculous prices (and dubious benefit). Obviously, from a practical standpoint, the selection is very limited. But let's be fair, it probably is less of a functional issue for this round than a larger caliber;

-The round is so small, a true expanding bullet is pointless (see 22TCM expansion to .32 or whatever it was; it's just not an efficient way of magnifying the bullet's path)
-The round is already high pressure, so it can't be +P wildcatted a whole lot above what will operate the guns (yeah, EA ammunition makes hotter stuff, but it wears guns out faster, has supposedly broken/KB'd at least one, and is really only an incremental improvement for a massive cost increase)
-Go much tougher than the thin skinned VMAX, and it's legally armor-piercing, go much weaker and the bullet will splatter without penetration
-Frangible bullets are redundant, since the basic SS197SR kind of already is (though there have been reports of 'magic bullets' not disintegrating on impact, most do)
-Go much faster, a non-armor-piercing bullet splatters and penetrates less, go slower, and you start punching mere ice-pick holes since you lose the frangible characteristics
-I imagine a bullet much heavier than the 40gr used would rapidly become underpowered due to displacement of powder volume, and would have trouble stabilizing. It'd basically be a sub-sonic .22 cal --'whoopee'

So I agree, there are a lot of factors that box these fast/little sub-caliber pistol cartridges into a specific niche (the 'blowing up of little critters' niche ). But that pigeon-holing also means that you really don't need the variety of options a jack-of-all-trades 9/40/45 can offer. You won't be shooting through thick bones or getting through-and-throughs regardless what you put into the gun

TCB

 

[meanmrmustard]

As an aside, I read on Survival boards and am told by my BIL that the 5.7 is gaining ground in Texas as a hog thumper.

 

[barnbwt]

Seriously? I had heard people had killed hogs with it, but it sure seems like a borderline proposition at best (I ain't got no experience in the matter whatsoever, just the compilation of them internets ). Although, I'm sure a lot of hog disposers are not concerned with how authoritatively the animals are put down, so long as they can get a lot of rounds off into a sounder before it vanishes. I'd be interested to hear what kind of rep the round gets after a few years being used in this manner.

I do think "hog thumper" would be an inaccurate term. "Hog pricker" perhaps?

EDIT: No wait, "Hog Burner" --there you go; perfect name for that new line of ammo

TCB

 

[meanmrmustard]

Seriously? I had heard people had killed hogs with it, but it sure seems like a borderline proposition at best (I ain't got no experience in the matter whatsoever, just the compilation of them internets ). Although, I'm sure a lot of hog disposers are not concerned with how authoritatively the animals are put down, so long as they can get a lot of rounds off into a sounder before it vanishes. I'd be interested to hear what kind of rep the round gets after a few years being used in this manner.

I do think "hog thumper" would be an inaccurate term. "Hog pricker" perhaps?

EDIT: No wait, "Hog Burner" --there you go; perfect name for that new line of ammo

TCB

I will call him this afternoon further on the matter, to inquire if he has personally seen hogs downed with it, wound channels, or bullets recovered.

Ok, "hog thumper" should probably be reserved for 45/70, .444 Marlin, and .44 Mag. Hog pricker just sounds...wrong.

While off topic of 5.7, but hog related, this past deer season a coworker of mine videoed with a Go Pro his fiance taking a hog in SW Missouri near Lake of the Ozarks. Using a .22 Hornet. Its the first I've witnessed and/or personally heard of a hog kill by someone I know here. So, my knowledge extends only to those I've taken in Texas as a teenager (javelinas, not feral hogs and nearly 20 years ago) or those taken by family down there. Quick internet searches do bring up pictures and testimony to the lol 5.7s prowess as a Hog Burner.

Edit to Add: You sly dog. I've been wondering lately who id remembered had a Venture Bros. quote as there signature line. Was up till 1 am watching it! Your fault!

 

[LightningMan]

Here's my perspective on having a FiveseveN pistol, I bought mine 6+ years ago at a more reasonable price ($800.00) as they are now selling for around $1200 or more. I bought lots of ammo when it was $18 a box of 50 ct. also now going for $30 or more a box of 50 ct. I've also learned to reload for it, and it is not hard to do. It is just more time consuming because you are loading this round like most rifle rounds with case trimming and more preperation time is involved, which is not so much the case with many pistol rounds. Otherwise its not expensive to reload for, I generally buy any 35 to 45 grain bullets like Hornady V-max or Sierra bullets which usually run under $20 per 100 ct. The only negitive I can give this round is that there is no new brass available to buy, but for me at least, there are a few guys around here that don't reload and I get their brass, when they leave it on the ground of the gun clubs range. Even with these things in my favor, I don't shoot mine much, but for me it's a keeper. Do what works best for you. LM

 

[fedlaw]

I was in the same position years ago with a revolver. I was shooting a S & W 625. I bought this as a competition gun and won a fair number of prizes with it. Every so often I got the itch to have it made more and more accurate. One thing led to the another and on and on until the only ammo it would reliably ignite was hideously expensive and had to be custom loaded. I sold it when the ammo passed the "are you kidding" cost (and the bookkeeper of the woman who was loading for me stole my credit card info.) Am I sorry I sold it? Yep, but I am sorrier that I ever had it so hot-rodded. It was really pretty good after the first couple of action jobs, etc.

 

[benzy2]

I personally wouldn't keep it. That is strictly due to the fact that for my use it does nothing better than a standard 9mm would do. For defensive ammo it isn't expensive but for plinking ammo it is. I spend most of my shoot aiming at paper, steel, and some old electronics. Having premium ammo for those uses isn't a need.

Now, if you like the gun and want to keep it, do so. I certainly have bought guns that were more interesting than useful so I won't criticize that choice. If you want a shooter and can't afford to shoot it, there isn't much value though.

 

[Orion8472]

Yep, benzy2, that's pretty much the case. I'm to the point where I'm no longer enthralled by the Five Seven. And since I have a 9mm pistol that can hold as much, and for me, actually feels as mild in recoil, the fascination with the Five Seven has left me. I may miss it, . . . a small bit, . . . but at this point in my life, I'd rather have the money. Just a shame I didn't do this last year. You snooze, you lose.

 

[Trent]

One of the members here, Trent, ventured into the complexities of reloading the 5.7 and shared his experiences with us here. IIRC, that was just this past February.

If you are interested, use the Search function and see if you can find the Thread. As I recall, the Thread ground to a halt as he was awaiting some response from RCBS(?) regarding a component (or something like that).

Well, it ground to a halt when I shot my chronograph.

That, and the nasty winter we were having finally lifted and gardening/kids/etc took over my life again. No fears though, the 5.7 saga will continue this fall.

 

[GBExpat]

Well, it ground to a halt when I shot my chronograph.

As my Dad used to love to say (with a gleam in his eye after determining that I was OK) whenever I came in damaged/bloody from some silly/stupid misadventure, "Don't do that anymore".

 

[1SOW]

Would you sell a pistol you "can't really afford to shoot"? Five Seven

JMHO Personally, I ONLY buy guns to shoot, no safe queens, no what ifs, no future value investments in guns. Their ONLY value to me is the enjoyment/FUN of reloading and shooting them. No or minimum shooting = no enjoyment=worthless to me. Sell it and make someone else happy. Buy a useful gun with the money recieved. Makes TWO happy shooters.

 

[Orion8472]

That is reasonable, 1SOW.

 

[giggitygiggity]

I do not sell any guns. I only buy guns. Guns are one of those investments that are fun and can be passed down generation to generation with stories and history to them. Also, very rarely will you buy a gun and years from now see it being sold for less than today's price so long as it was not abused.

 

[B!ngo]

I think the OP made the right call - based on what he's been saying. Depending on where you stand on the issues, guns are just stuff like most anything else. Presuming you plan on one for HD/SD once you have one or two then it's just the desired use of discretionary funds. Holding on to something you're apprehensive to use because of the cost of ammo or whatever other reason you might have makes little sense to me.
The question to the OP, if it isn't too probing is what he plans to do with the funds regarding the possible acquisition of something to replace the 5.7?
B