Would you support the No Fly No Buy List if they added Due Process?
- Thread starter Plan2Live
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Hell no, no compromise. Anyone can be placed on no fly list for any reason. There is no due process and almost impossible to get off of. If you think its a great idea then you have no clue how the government works. I spent 15 yrs in LE and saw people labeled with an attitude towards LE because they questioned why they were pulled over. I saw people bullied because they had a firearm in car (which is completely legal in Wyoming) by liberal cops. You have no clue how government agencys operate if you think they would not slap you on list because of your beleifs. Just look at what the IRS did
Red Wind
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^ Right on. Not one more backward step. Not one. 
ColoradoMinuteMan
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THE VERY DEFINITION OF DUE PROCESS IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. (yes I'm yelling) You cannot have rights being denied until you prove you are innocent and also have due process. They are mutually exclusive. The premise of the question is invalid.
Those of you on this site who support such measures are unfortunately supporting the enemies of freedom. You work under the assumptions of "if they are the list they must be bad people, if the cops arrested them they must be guilty, and if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide." All of these dangerous cliches assume that those in power are moral and just. We all know they aren't.
The purpose of the 2nd amendment was to defend individual rights in the case those in power become unjust and tyrannical. If the tyrants have the ability to deny your gun rights by putting your name on a list and forcing you to be guilty until proven innocent, then they have not only decided to violate the 2nd, but they are also denying your rights outlined in the 5th and 14th amendments.
It's really that simple. I know many of you mean well, but by supporting this sort of thing you are supporting the enemies of freedom and you are playing a large part in the eventual complete collapse of freedom of religion, middle class, and the American Dream as we all know it. It will eventually happen, and you did it to your sons, daughters and grandchildren. Envision the future you have given them.
If you think you can't end up on a terrorist watch-list then read my post in the other thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10290384#post10290384
This is not black helicopter and tin foil talk people. This is actually happening and you are letting it. If you aren't doing something about it, you are becoming the problem! YES YOU! WAKE UP before it's too late.
Those of you on this site who support such measures are unfortunately supporting the enemies of freedom. You work under the assumptions of "if they are the list they must be bad people, if the cops arrested them they must be guilty, and if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide." All of these dangerous cliches assume that those in power are moral and just. We all know they aren't.
The purpose of the 2nd amendment was to defend individual rights in the case those in power become unjust and tyrannical. If the tyrants have the ability to deny your gun rights by putting your name on a list and forcing you to be guilty until proven innocent, then they have not only decided to violate the 2nd, but they are also denying your rights outlined in the 5th and 14th amendments.
It's really that simple. I know many of you mean well, but by supporting this sort of thing you are supporting the enemies of freedom and you are playing a large part in the eventual complete collapse of freedom of religion, middle class, and the American Dream as we all know it. It will eventually happen, and you did it to your sons, daughters and grandchildren. Envision the future you have given them.
If you think you can't end up on a terrorist watch-list then read my post in the other thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10290384#post10290384
This is not black helicopter and tin foil talk people. This is actually happening and you are letting it. If you aren't doing something about it, you are becoming the problem! YES YOU! WAKE UP before it's too late.
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tkroenlein
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This seems pretty simple.
Part 1. If someone is engaging in terrorist activities, arrest them, charge them, put them in jail. Then they can't buy guns. In other words, enforce the law.
Part 2. Allow the citizenry to freely arm themselves.
This terrorist problem exists entirely because the law is not enforced by the DOJ, and the citizens can't provide for the "security of a free state" because of the monumental infringements on bearing arms.
The "no fly list/terrorist watch list" is a poorly disguised vehicle to disarm those who would resist tyranny. Let's not forget the release of the "likely terrorist" list that consisted of veterans, conservative organizations, rights groups, etc., etc.
There is no adding due process to arbitrary pre-crime data basing. Flee from any notion of compromise.
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Part 1. If someone is engaging in terrorist activities, arrest them, charge them, put them in jail. Then they can't buy guns. In other words, enforce the law.
Part 2. Allow the citizenry to freely arm themselves.
This terrorist problem exists entirely because the law is not enforced by the DOJ, and the citizens can't provide for the "security of a free state" because of the monumental infringements on bearing arms.
The "no fly list/terrorist watch list" is a poorly disguised vehicle to disarm those who would resist tyranny. Let's not forget the release of the "likely terrorist" list that consisted of veterans, conservative organizations, rights groups, etc., etc.
There is no adding due process to arbitrary pre-crime data basing. Flee from any notion of compromise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
alexander45
Member
It's rather impossible to have the no fly list AND due process if these suspected terrorists did something to justify putting them in court and to be found guilty they would be in prison
I know it is a little late since the vote has been made, but they may try again. Even before when it was proposed, my issue was not the denying of sale to suspected terrorists, but the issues with the list in question. If that list were fixed then why should we have a problem?
The dems think the Republican proposals are too high of a burden but in reality this is probably the best "compromise" I've seen in a while. When no-fly no buy was proposed by a different name earlier this year, it was clearly unconstitutional and a slippery slope, but at the time nobody proposed an alternative, so the dems are able to point fingers and say we want terrorists to have guns. Now the republicans are finally proposing a compromise that seems reasonable. Between the 2 republican bills, Omar would actually have been flagged for the FBI, not so with the dems bills.
The dems think the Republican proposals are too high of a burden but in reality this is probably the best "compromise" I've seen in a while. When no-fly no buy was proposed by a different name earlier this year, it was clearly unconstitutional and a slippery slope, but at the time nobody proposed an alternative, so the dems are able to point fingers and say we want terrorists to have guns. Now the republicans are finally proposing a compromise that seems reasonable. Between the 2 republican bills, Omar would actually have been flagged for the FBI, not so with the dems bills.
Sheepdog1968
Member
To me, if you want to get a new gun law, what gun law are you will to let go of? How about repeal allowing new machine guns? How about universal conceal carry where if you have a ccw from any state you can carry anywhere else in the USA? I wouldn't support a new law unless they are willing to give us something huge in return.
The 5th Amendment doesnt seem to mean much to these people, except when they are trying to weasel out of answering a direct question. As a test case, I think every congressman who votes for this absurd bill should be charged with dereliction of duty-failing to uphold the oath they swore to, and treason for giving aid and comfort to our enemies. No indictment, no facing their accuser in court, no nothing. Just remove them from office without a word. Then maybe some of them might see the light. The Constitution is structured the way it is for a lot of good reasons.
TRX
Member
The thing that bothers me is, "Why do we have a 'no fly' list at all?"
If the people on the list are thought to be criminals, then arrest them and take them to court.
If the idea is that they're likely to hijack or blow up an airplane... isn't that what all the silly 'security theater' is about?
If the people on the list are thought to be criminals, then arrest them and take them to court.
If the idea is that they're likely to hijack or blow up an airplane... isn't that what all the silly 'security theater' is about?
NO. (Since this is THR, I won't add the original word in front of that "No".)
Why do the liberals and leftists propose only infringing on the Second Amendment right? If they really were concerned about terrorists on the various secret lists, wouldn't they be advocating for infringing ALL of their rights?
Just think, suspected terrorists wouldn't be able to avail themselves of habeas corpus, or object to an illegal search. The government could stop them from voting, or from having bank accounts, or posting on the Internet. And of course, if they just "disappeared" in the middle of the night . . . .
Welcome to the Totalitarian States of America.
But we know that's not what they really want. They don't care about "terrorists" except for the terrorist members of the NRA, and those that support the Second Amendment.
Why do the liberals and leftists propose only infringing on the Second Amendment right? If they really were concerned about terrorists on the various secret lists, wouldn't they be advocating for infringing ALL of their rights?
Just think, suspected terrorists wouldn't be able to avail themselves of habeas corpus, or object to an illegal search. The government could stop them from voting, or from having bank accounts, or posting on the Internet. And of course, if they just "disappeared" in the middle of the night . . . .
Welcome to the Totalitarian States of America.
But we know that's not what they really want. They don't care about "terrorists" except for the terrorist members of the NRA, and those that support the Second Amendment.
SilentStalker
Member
I am shocked that both of Senator Shelby and Sessions from AL voted in favor of the republican gun bills. This is quite disturbing to me. I figured if anyone was going to vote against any bills that would disarm American citizens, it would be one or both of these guys. This is truly shocking to me. I guess its time I send them a nice letter.
chopinbloc
Member
Something doesn't become due process just because a politician declared it so. Due process would mean a trial and conviction, making them a felon and therefore a prohibited possessor.
P5 Guy
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I can't believe THR poll is that close
Kenneth
Member
I'm pretty much against the government having secret lists of anybody for any reason. Just about anybody can get anybody else investigated or put in a database with just a phone call. Who hasn't heard "If you see something, say something" over and over again.
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