Would you take the shot?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by UKTN, Aug 25, 2008.

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  1. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine member

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    Absolutely.

    Hell I'd shoot him in the back if he was stealing my tractor, I'd damned sure shoot him in the back, several times, for trying to murder people.
     
  2. Tamren

    Tamren Member

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    I don't think I would take the shot unless a loved one or myself was in danger. If my girlfriend of two years was in danger, I'd do my best to drop the SOB, otherwise I'd get out. I don't have the training or the marksmanship for getting in a firefight with a psychopath in a crowded mall.

    Also, I'd be worried about the cops showing up at just the wrong time and wasting me, the legal consequences of taking the shot even if I did take out the BG, or just plain missing and accidentally killing someone else.

    I'll risk my health to help a stranger without even thinking about it. However, I will not risk my future plans or the complete destruction of everything I've spent the last three year putting together through legal fallout and possibly prison time.
     
  3. Powderman

    Powderman Member

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    I am not a judge, and more than likely will never be.

    However, using the Tacoma Mall shooting, the shootings in the mall in Idaho (I think), and other examples, I will say this: If you find yourself in circumstances similar to those--and you engaged and/or shot the active shooter--I do not think you would spend one second in jail. You probably wouldn't even be placed in handcuffs, as long as your role is clear to the responding officers.

    I know that if I were one of the responding officers, you would not be in cuffs. :)
     
  4. RandyB

    RandyB Member

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    Eliminate the threat. Macho BS has nothing to do with saving lives.
     
  5. Jaenak

    Jaenak Member

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    If you're behind him and he's endangering or trying to take someone's life...SHOOT HIM! The fact that you'd shoot him in the back makes absolutely no difference unless he threw down his guns, shot his hands up into the air and ran away screaming "Don't kill me". It sounds a little like a personal rant on my part but I'm being technical here. Seriously, unless he's surrendering or trying to defuse the situation and remove himself from it, just take the shot. The law enforcement will thank you for saving someone else's life, not arrest you for shooting the gunman in the back.
     
  6. shadowalker

    shadowalker Member

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    Yes, if I was 100% sure of the situation I would shoot until the threat was stopped. In fact it is beneficial to me if he isn't facing my way, more time to line up a shot and less chance of him effectively returning fire.
     
  7. Torchman

    Torchman Member

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    In my past life...I was a Coast Guard Judgemental Shooting Instructor. LOL...sounds great, but really just evaluating shoot/dont shoot with an unloaded gun (YES...TRIPLE CLEARED) at a big screen TV for semi annual qualification. In the "A" grouping of 15 scenarios...I almost ALWAYS had to counsel "newbies" on scenario #15. DISCLAIMER...the material is FOUO...but its relevant to this discussion...and wont jeopardize national security! :) These scenarios start with "intel" to set the stage...

    "While on patrol, you receive a report of a marina being robbed at gunpoint by 3 men who fled in a boat"...cut to video of a boston whaler screaming past...two of the passengers raise pistols and fire. " You follow the boat to a marina

    At this point in the video...2 of the BG's come up guns blazing...NO PROB...I'd better be hearing "click click click" from the evaluee. Number 3 fires once...and runs down a dock. MOST NEWBIES dont fire until he reaches the END of the dock and turns to fire AGAIN!

    And my "post fire" was always.."Why did you WAIT?" "He was running away! I cant shoot him in the back" "Ummm, he murdered a storekeeper and has fired on Law Enforcement...and you are going to let him encounter other innocents?"

    Bottom line...God Forbid ANY of us encounter a rabid dog. But if you do, human or animal...it is your DUTY as a GOOD CITIZEN to put it down.

    Dont be a sheeple. Cite a case where someone has been prosecuted for taking on a mall/school shooter. I know Tacoma was given Hero status. If lightning strikes...and you are equipped... for the love of God TAKE THE SHOT! (even in the back!)

    But that said...dont be a Hero either. Just be a responsible citizen who happens to carry a gun......
     
  8. JRadice45

    JRadice45 Member

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    "it is your DUTY as a GOOD CITIZEN to put it down."
    Now I have not read that in any good citizen manual.
    I still hold my ground, I would NOT take the shot... given that I am not being shot at, and I can escape without harm. Seriously, why waste MY ammunition on a guy who isnt focused on me? He does not pose a threat to me, to others yeah sure he is the baddest mother in the scene right now. But again why do I have to take him out? The other people should have been carrying a defense tool as well if they had the concern and forethought to worry about these types of situations.
    Had I been on the muzzle end of the shooter and he/she was shooting in my direction, escape is not a likely option. In that case I would engage until I was able to put him/her down and run like hell to get to safe territory. Go up to a police officer and say I wish to make a complaint against the shooter in the mall. he tried to kill me, I want a lawyer. But again, engaging threats come with inherent risks. Good guys don't always live to tell the tale. My shots might not incapacitate the subject, I may stop him/her but in the aftermath one of my rounds overpenetrated or missed and hit a bystander, do you really think the city government is going to back me up when someone has pending litigation against me because my bullet struck them? I think not!
    I am not my brothers keeper. Never was. Just a concerned citizen who is concerned about MY safety, and that of MY FAMILY'S safety.
     
  9. Powderman

    Powderman Member

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    Oh. My. Goodness.

    I was going to say something in reply to this post--but I won't. I simply cannot put into words what I feel when I read this.

    I think I'll leave it at that.
     
  10. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    We are wandering. If one wants to flee, that is a defensible solution.

    However, if one stays and is armed:

    1. Staying increases your risk, so do something to reduce it.
    2. You have no duty to warn an active shooter
    3. Take the shot if you can do it reasonably (not hit the baby nearby)
    4. Don't stand there and futter around

    Flee or act, IMHO. It is not a time for observation
     
  11. JRadice45

    JRadice45 Member

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    Powderman. Say what you feel, but be polite about it.
    You obviously feel different than I do. Could it be because you are an LEO and have the powers and protections in place in the state governments that protect you from liablity in a situation such as this, or you get paid to be in situations such as these? Possibly.
    I see no benefit in shooting the threat to others when I can escape and evade the danger instead. I am unaware of any state statutes (Connecticut) that REQURE me to take any action against an active shooter, especially one who isn't firing upon me. Especially in the case of defending someone else, someone who is unknown to me.
    Once again, I am concerned with MY safety and MY FAMILY'S safety. No one else really matters, why should they? YMMV!
     
  12. timberbeast63

    timberbeast63 Member

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    Nothing "honorable" about a gunfight -- it's survival. You are taking a human life, only justified by the protection of others or yourself.

    I think a lot of gunfights in the old west involved shooting an opponent in the back.

    If someone is shooting a lot of people and I can stop it, then yes, you have to shoot and keep shooting until the threat is down.
     
  13. KBintheSLC

    KBintheSLC Member

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    I think that opening fire on a bunch of unarmed, unexpecting civilians is also unacceptable. I would say that you would not only be fully justified in such a situation, you would most likely be encouraged to take the shot.
     
  14. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    Well, it depends on three things--

    1. Can you escape in safety WITHOUT taking the shot. If you cannot (gunman is scanning and sure to find you at any moment, and has already demonstrated his willingness to shoot), you are not only justified--you've GOT to shoot to get out of there safely!

    2. Mood of local law enforcement/prosecutors. Let's say you know you can escape safely, but that doing so will increase the innocent carnage: you can put a stop to the killing RIGHT NOW. Some law enforcement will see what you did for what it was--an heroic intervention to save lives. Others (where I live, for example) would see you as an illegally armed guy (it's a campus) who went total Death-Wish on this poor guy with mental problems; he coulda been talked down and treated, but now that's impossible because YOU, some guy's who's been waiting his whole life to find someone to shoot, finally did.

    3. Who you are. Some people, even if they know that they can escape unharmed (allowing others to die) and that they WILL be prosecuted for some variety of murder if they don't, will nevertheless take the shot anyway--and go to jail if necessary knowing they did the right thing.

    Am I such a person? G-d, I hope not: my family needs me out of jail. But does anyone really know what they'd do, until that moment?
     
  15. Scoutsout2645

    Scoutsout2645 Member

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    1911guy:
    +1!
    Since you're asking the question, you have evidently looked inside yourself and determined that you would rather intervene in a bad situation than flee. Based on the way you described the scenario, the shot is one you would feel physically capable of making. Therefore, TAKE THE SHOT!
    If someone is trying to kill people and you use deadly force to stop him, this is covered as defense of others who are incapable of defending themselves.
    If someone is randomly killing people and is within range of your gun, then YOU are also in range of HIS gun, are in imminent danger, and are covered under self-defense.
    How fast can you turn around and bring your gun to bear on a target? The BG can do it just as fast--don't give him a chance to make you a statistic.

    Remember, there are two people in a street fight: the person who fights fair and the winner.
     
  16. Powderman

    Powderman Member

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    Sir (or ma'am), me being a cop is not why I would engage the shooter--not at all.

    It is because I could not face anyone--including myself--if I were watching an active shooter, KNOWING that I was armed, KNOWING that I could ambush the person--or at the least, put some rounds into them--if I just turned and ran away.

    I would feel that everyone who was hurt or died after I ran was MY fault--for not taking decisive action.

    It is not in my genetic makeup to run when others are hurt. My initial instinct is to go to them; to stand between them and the thing that would hurt them. My instinct is to FIGHT BACK--if for no other reason then to let a human being, a man, woman or child in mortal peril to know that they are not alone in their time of greatest need.

    Consider this: How would you feel if (in a Luby's type scenario) your husband or wife, who stopped in for a bite, was shot dead--and you found out that someone was there who had a concealed firearm--and RAN AWAY?

    That's why I'm a cop.

    I require no man to stand with me; if need be when the time comes I'll stand alone, but I'll stand.

    If someone else decides to step up with me, then thanks for the company, friend.

    If not--well, just know and remember that I--and others like me--have got your back.

    It's how we roll. ;)
     
  17. Old Guy

    Old Guy Member

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    23 year old with a Family?

    Powderman.

    Are you 23 with no guts? And an NRA Instructor to boot? No you say? I would have had your back in this shopping center, or I would take the shot.

    Oh I am 72? lived through the bombing of Liverpool UK? different though pattern? There is no though to this logistical problem, you are armed, in my case here in Gods Hurricane test center, legally.

    I would have called 911 with the location, and my description to dispatch, "Old Guy. white beard, and Glock 19" Blue Tooth in ear. Responding Officers would have met me with my now holstered Glock 19. Still with Blue Tooth in ear!

    This is your responsibility, this is America!
     
  18. gregormeister

    gregormeister Member

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    This guy is using a firearm to harm innocent civilians and by all means he is shooting them in the back and arms and stomach to achieve his goal...I say take the perp out in any manner you can, to stop the threat!!!
     
  19. Sean Dempsey

    Sean Dempsey Member

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    I get where the non-shoot crowd is coming from.

    In this ridiculous hypothetical, my priority order would be:

    1 - ensure my safety. I am not leaving my wife a widow. Sorry. I'm not entering combat when I don't have to.

    2 - If I am relatively sure that I am out of harms way, I might take some long shots, but all I would have on my is my HK .45 compact, so accuracy at range won't be super. And if the shooter turned on me, I would STILL do what I could to GET AWAY instead of engage.


    The hypothetical is pretty flawed, to begin with. If I walked around the corner just as he started shooting, and I had a 3 foot shot to make and he doesn't know I'm there - sure, I'd put a bullet through his medulla.

    If it happens in a mall and I'm 100 feet away, and he doesn't know I'm there, then I'm out.

    You could be a hero and stop him and save all those lives, sure. Or, you could take a shot, miss, and he turns around and gives you a face full of .00 buck, and you're now dead, your family alone, and just another rambo who thought life was a movie.
     
  20. JRadice45

    JRadice45 Member

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    This is your responsibility, this is America!
    No such responsibility exists.... only in your hearts and minds, and thats cool I'm happy for ya. I just dont feel the same way. Im lookin out for myself. Could really care less about others. Not that i'm a coward, Just dont feel like entering into combat that was not my fight to begin with. Just as Sean Dempsy stated - 1 - ensure my safety. I am not leaving my wife a widow. Sorry. I'm not entering combat when I don't have to. , If it happens in a mall and I'm 100 feet away, and he doesn't know I'm there, then I'm out.

    You could be a hero and stop him and save all those lives, sure. Or, you could take a shot, miss, and he turns around and gives you a face full of .00 buck, and you're now dead, your family alone, and just another rambo who thought life was a movie.-
    And powderman, My girlfriend carries a Glock 23 or a Kel-Tec p32 so I'm not so worried about her getting hurt, she will use it if she has to.

    Old guy, I am 23 and guts has nothing to do with it. I dont know how anyone could live without guts really... no way to process waste and nutrients etc...
    Since you are old I assume you have nothing to lose. I have my life ahead of me, no need to take risks when the situation allows me an easy out. Again ymmv.
    Dont make personal attacks on peoples character based on what their opinions are, you have no idea as to who they are and what they think. You being older and experienced in life, I would have expected you to know this.
     
  21. YANKEE2500

    YANKEE2500 Member

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    You dont have much of a life if you could care less about your fellow man. Please stay in Connecticut so the rest of us know we have each others back. There is no need for you to even have a ccw if you wont defend the defenseless. I wish we had a draft system in place so you could spend a few mounths in combat and find out what it means to defend others. But you would probably move to Canada.
     
  22. JRadice45

    JRadice45 Member

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    Again, what is with the disrespecting and telling me not to have my pistol permit, and telling me I would probably move to canada? You have no idea of who I am and what I stand for... don't be so quick to judge! You sir should grow up a bit and learn that others can play in your sandbox too, even if they bring a different colored shovel!
    There is no need for you to even have a ccw if you wont defend the defenseless.
    Again there is no requirement for me to defend the defenseless in order to obtain my pistol permit. Actually from laws that I have read it seems my state frowns upon that. Every time I have spoken to law enforcement about similar situations they have told me the same thing, don't get involved, be a good witness and call us. Same advice my armed guard and pistol instructor has given me and the rest of the class.
    All of that aside, I carry a sub-compact pistol, snubnose revolver, or a kel-tec mouse piece. I am not about to engage a lethal threat with a small pistol at extended ranges. I don't carry my 1911 around anymore so that is out of the equation.
    If I were in the military and given no choice, then yes I would egage. then again I would have battle buddies who had my back as well. not so in the case of myself and the lone mall shooter busting up innocents.
     
  23. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    The part I don't get is how's this my problem?

    I will defend the innocent--if they are my own family or someone else I'm willing to go to jail for, or at least wear "the mark of Cain" for, for the rest of my life. I did not get a CCW to defend the public at large.

    Those of you who are LE, you're duty-bound (to a point--no civilian is bound to commit suicide) to go after someone threatening the general public. And I thank you for choosing that tough job. However, the segment of the general public that I'm required to defend is quite small.

    Again, as I stated above, if the mood in your community is that, after you shoot a murderer you didn't have to, they'll throw you a ticker-tape parade--then G-d bless, and I'll be happy to cheer.

    In my neck of the woods (eastern Massachusetts), I can assure you that the Mayor of Boston, the Governor, and my two Senators will not be holding a reception in my honor if I shoot and kill anyone, including Osama bin Laden.

    So, once again, I have to consider how do I protect the ones I'm responsible for? By placing myself in legal jeopardy, and adding a few hundred thousand in criminal/civil defense attorney fees to the family budget?

    For LEOs, their defense and liablity is all paid for, and they have a clear duty. My duty is to make sure that I and my loved ones get home safely tonight.

    What about the unarmed victims that I leave to the mercy of the shooter? Well, like Clint Eastwood might have said in Unforgiven, "They should have armed themselves." Like I have.

    Clint Smith once said that, had he been armed and at Luby's the day of the shooting, watching the murderer slowly "go down the line" shooting one person after the other, "I would have waited until he was about here [indicates 3 persons away from him] until I shot him--you never know, he could have run out of ammo." Whether he was serious or just making a teaching point, I don't know--but something to consider.
     
  24. Old Guy

    Old Guy Member

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    Old I am, will get older too!

    Young Chap,

    How else can one form opinions of people, except to view their written words?

    I did not know you carry a mouse gun, that would make difference I suppose, my Glock 19 with its nice TruGlow sights is good for 10m head shots, 40m torso hits.

    When you can hear shots fired, single shots, one shooter, and you step forward and see this mad man shooting people, I do not see a choice.

    But you do, you have stated you do, sounds like you would phone your Mum and ask her opinion! Just before running away.

    Nothing to live for? Lovely Wife, 4 Grand Children, just took the old blood pressure. 119/79 with a pulse of 66, not to bad.
    At 72 still compete in IDPA, do not so bad either, still do hi risk patrol work in my Son's Security Company.

    Maybe he thinks I am expendable, at 45 YOA he is getting on in years also.

    He once stepped in to a fight, one beating one on the deck, three watching!
    I was not to busy so I stepped in also, fixed. He never got his slide rule out to factor the odds, me neither. And no, we did not know the kid who was being hurt.
     
  25. YANKEE2500

    YANKEE2500 Member

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    I never said NOT have a ccw. I said there is no need to have one. Ok maybe you wouldn 't go to Canada. Why would you ASSume because someone is old they have nothing to live for? Do your parents and Grandparents fall into that catagory? And anyone can play in my sandbox with any color shovel they have as long as they have my back like I would have theres. So with your line of thinking You would be ok with some who had a gun, watch a thug beat your father to death and beat and rape your mother and take no action but (to be a good witness) and cover there own backside. If you have no intrest in helping your fellow man and are only intrested in ME and MINE you are the one that needs to grow up. If I lost everything I had and saved one life, even yours or one of your loved ones it would be worth it. I have lived my life helping others in any way I can, regaurdless of the outcome.
     
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