XM16E1 users in Vietnam 1966-67

[redbone]

I am looking for first person experiences with the malfunctions experienced in Vietnam when the XM16E1 was introduced. A good friend of mine who was there at the time is documenting the situation, and I am seeking contacts for him. If you have such an experience and would care to share it, please reply and I'll PM you my email so you can get hooked up with my friend.

Thanks!

RBH

 

[Vern Humphrey]

First of all, the initial issue included no cleaning equipment -- because with direct impingement, "you don't need to clean them."

The slotted flash hider scooped up vegetation.

The forearm was poorly designed -- it made noise if it knocked against something, and it tapered FOREWARD -- so the gun recoiled OUT of your grip (if you were fool enough to fire full auto.}

The magazines were poor, and had to be downloaded a round or two to be reliable.

In '67 when I got back from my first tour in Viet Nam, I was an AIT company commander. When going to the range, we would clean all weapons thoroughly, and instead of having the troops carry then when they marched to the range, we put them in rifle racks in the back of a deuce and a half, and covered them with ponchos. They STILL kept the NCOs busy running from one trainee to the next clearing stoppages.

 

[redbone]

Vern: I sent some information via the "Start a conversation" feature, I could not find the "personal message" feature. Thanks for your response.

 

[mshootnit]

I am looking for first person experiences with the malfunctions experienced in Vietnam when the XM16E1 was introduced. A good friend of mine who was there at the time is documenting the situation, and I am seeking contacts for him. If you have such an experience and would care to share it, please reply and I'll PM you my email so you can get hooked up with my friend.

Thanks!

RBH

Check these replies:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/vietnam-m16-thread.548678/

 

[redbone]

MS:

Thanks for the tip. I'm looking thru those now, and see some good leads.

RBH

 

[joed]

I was in Vietnam in 1969. Never saw or experienced any problems with the M16 in that time. But I believe I had the M16A1.

 

[redbone]

Concur, I think they were all A1s by 1969. Thanks.

 

[eastbank]

being a hunter before I became a soldier, I knew the importence of keeping a rifle clean and never had a problem with my m-16. but I did wish I had my m-14 at times. if submerged in water, you had to remember to crack the chamber to let the water run out with the m-16

 

[Poper]

Contact Hummer70 here. Mark Humphreville is probably the single most knowlegeable individual on this forum regarding US Army small arms.

ETA:
Mark's signature line - Distinguished Rifleman High Power & Smallbore Prone, Presidents Hundred (Rifle), US Palma Teams, US Dewar Teams , US Army Sm Cal Weapons Lab, Picatinny Arsenal, Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director Aberdeen Proving Ground, Charter Member Int Wound Ballistics Assn.NRA Member at age 12. Life 1972, AC4HT, Firefighter 1, Shriner,

 

[tark]

I was in country from May 68 to 69. The first thing I learned was I would be, as a REMF, issued an M-14. The second thing I learned was not to let it out of my sight when I was around real soldiers, who would steal it and leave their M-16 behind. I think the 16s were pretty well sorted, as the limeys would say, by that time. But a lot of the infantry guys on their second and third tours had bad memories of the earlier guns and they didn't trust them.

 

[redbone]

Eastbank, Poper and Tark:

Thanks for your replies, and thanks for your service as well.

Rick

 

[FL-NC]

from my research as a weapons instructor at an advanced school, I obtained the following information, about why problems occurred:
1- early issued ammo used a different powder than the ammo used for testing. The later powder was dirtier.
2- early rifles didn't have chrome bore and chamber, resulting in corrosion
3- troops weren't adequately trained on maintenance procedures. Many were only experienced with the M14, and got the M16 at embarkation or even when they arrived in country, with very little familiarization.
4. Sufficient vital cleaning equipment (such as 5.56 rods, brushes, and patch holders) weren't available in sufficient numbers early in the conflict. Remember that the military at that point had been using 30 caliber rifles, machineguns, etc. since 1898 or whatever. So you could do a decent job of cleaning a M14 with a kit for a Garand, 1903, M60, M1919 MG, or even a krag. Good luck getting a 30 cal rod through a 5.56 bore.

 

[tark]

Eastbank, Poper and Tark:

Thanks for your replies, and thanks for your service as well.

Rick

Thank you for your kind words.

Whenever I mention my Vietnam service I always reveal that I was a REMF. You G.I.s out there know what that acronym means. Sometimes I am almost ashamed to admit I was there at all. Being stationed in Long My Depot in Qui Nhon was a life of ease. Qui Nhon was an In-Country R&R center and the ROK Tiger Division kept the VC far away from our area of operations. We had little to do but get drunk, steal things from the Depot, and ....well, you know what Bored G.I.s do...

When I would travel into Qui Nhon itself, I would run into real soldiers, on R&R. That means Infantry, men who actually fought and died. Both Army and Marines. Men who got the crap end of the stick, and they knew it.

Those men had, and will always have, my undying respect. They were the real soldiers. They made history. I was a footnote.

My only consolation was knowing that I helped supply them with with the arms, ammo and food they needed to fight. And maybe we provided a smile or two as well. We would sometimes include a copy or two of PLAYBOY magazine in the shipment..

 

[eastbank]

never be ashamed of your service any where. it take many men to fight a war, supply-service-transport-training from here to the front are needed to keep the front line men going. I knew men who died in Vietnam and in the states in training and accidents and to me they all gave their all for the country. I quite the VFW when they treated a good friend like he was crap because he was ordered to serve state side in a training job threw no fault of his own.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Thank you for your kind words.

Whenever I mention my Vietnam service I always reveal that I was a REMF. You G.I.s out there know what that acronym means. Sometimes I am almost ashamed to admit I was there at all. Being stationed in Long My Depot in Qui Nhon was a life of ease. Qui Nhon was an In-Country R&R center and the ROK Tiger Division kept the VC far away from our area of operations. We had little to do but get drunk, steal things from the Depot, and ....well, you know what Bored G.I.s do...

When I would travel into Qui Nhon itself, I would run into real soldiers, on R&R. That means Infantry, men who actually fought and died. Both Army and Marines. Men who got the crap end of the stick, and they knew it.

Those men had, and will always have, my undying respect. They were the real soldiers. They made history. I was a footnote.

My only consolation was knowing that I helped supply them with with the arms, ammo and food they needed to fight. And maybe we provided a smile or two as well. We would sometimes include a copy or two of PLAYBOY magazine in the shipment..

Both my Grandfathers served in the Pacific during WW2. One was Corps of Engineers and saw combat on multiple occasions, receiving the Silver Star and Purple Heart for action and wounds sustained on Okinawa.
The other was Army Supply, serving in the Philippines and, later, the Army of Occupation, but never saw combat.
They only met once, but my mother told me many times how her father (the Engineer) had saluted my Dad's father, telling him "You were there, that's enough."

You were there, that's enough. Thank you, and all the other THR veterans, for your service and for sharing your experiences!

 

[mshootnit]

Last night I re-read the battle of hill 947. Just wow. Lots of respect for our veterans.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

from my research as a weapons instructor at an advanced school, I obtained the following information, about why problems occurred:
1- early issued ammo used a different powder than the ammo used for testing. The later powder was dirtier.

The Army standard was WW Ball Powder. The 5.56mm was developed using IMR Powder. Developing a cartridge using non-standard powder was a mistake.

2- early rifles didn't have chrome bore and chamber, resulting in corrosion

Yet the AK 47s of that era had chrome plated bores -- breech to muzzle.

3- troops weren't adequately trained on maintenance procedures. Many were only experienced with the M14, and got the M16 at embarkation or even when they arrived in country, with very little familiarization.
4. Sufficient vital cleaning equipment (such as 5.56 rods, brushes, and patch holders) weren't available in sufficient numbers early in the conflict. Remember that the military at that point had been using 30 caliber rifles, machineguns, etc. since 1898 or whatever. So you could do a decent job of cleaning a M14 with a kit for a Garand, 1903, M60, M1919 MG, or even a krag. Good luck getting a 30 cal rod through a 5.56 bore.

The Army was sold on the idea that the direct impingement gas system didn't need cleaning, so no cleaning gear was issued. And compared to the M14, the M16 required a hellacious lot of cleaning and maintenance.

 

[shootstraight57]

I was in country from May 68 to 69. The first thing I learned was I would be, as a REMF, issued an M-14. The second thing I learned was not to let it out of my sight when I was around real soldiers, who would steal it and leave their M-16 behind. I think the 16s were pretty well sorted, as the limeys would say, by that time. But a lot of the infantry guys on their second and third tours had bad memories of the earlier guns and they didn't trust them.

LOL I haven't heard that in a long time! Thank You for your service.

 

[FL-NC]

Thank you for your kind words.

Whenever I mention my Vietnam service I always reveal that I was a REMF. You G.I.s out there know what that acronym means. Sometimes I am almost ashamed to admit I was there at all. Being stationed in Long My Depot in Qui Nhon was a life of ease. Qui Nhon was an In-Country R&R center and the ROK Tiger Division kept the VC far away from our area of operations. We had little to do but get drunk, steal things from the Depot, and ....well, you know what Bored G.I.s do...

When I would travel into Qui Nhon itself, I would run into real soldiers, on R&R. That means Infantry, men who actually fought and died. Both Army and Marines. Men who got the crap end of the stick, and they knew it.

Those men had, and will always have, my undying respect. They were the real soldiers. They made history. I was a footnote.

My only consolation was knowing that I helped supply them with with the arms, ammo and food they needed to fight. And maybe we provided a smile or two as well. We would sometimes include a copy or two of PLAYBOY magazine in the shipment..

I wasn't in VN- I was born in '67. I literally "jumped into the army with both feet". As a junior enlisted soldier, I was exactly like everyone else during my "progression"- if you ain't infantry, you suck. If you're a leg (not airborne) you are a lower life form. Not SF? Don't even deserve to gaze upon us. And so on and so on- whatever endeavor I had accomplished (SCUBA, sniper. etc.). This mentality of course was ingrained by senior people from those respective communities, and perpetuated by the cherries that had just graduated whatever training ("black hats" in jump school actually preached the physical, intellectual, and general superiority of paratroopers VS "legs", for example) Then one day a wiser older NCO asked me how I would like to cook my own food, pack all my parachutes, chase down ammo and other supplies, fix the trucks myself, and so on (stuff we were too busy to do, done by the "help"- support people). It opened my eyes, and made me appreciate them. The jobs that I used to make fun of- they are pretty important. So as long as those guys who did those jobs did a good job at them, I made sure no one gave them grief. If I found the support guys slacking, I would remind them of how their lives would be in a conventional unit doing the same MOS, and that I could arrange a transfer if they didn't like working with "us". I became that wiser NCO, and did everything I could to enhance the work environment between operators and support people. When the war started, we didn't have time for the playground games anyway.

 

[Hummer70]

I just got PM and responded to both addresses listed both on PM here and directly to their home emails. I will be glad to help. The guys with all the Poop (know where all the bodies are as they put them there haha) so to speak are at the big range in the sky. W.C. "Bill" Davis, L.F. Moore,Loren Brunton were all friends. Loren just passed a few months back.

Sorry I have been so long in responding but I am in Myrtle Beach, SC and have been standing by here waiting to go sign depositions just across the NC line from here since last Sunday.

As it turns out the detective working the case got cleared for a Grand Jury presentation and he got subject indicted on Monday. Since then I have been hanging around to go help an attorney there who is court appointed guardian for my first cousin's wife. She got flimflamed into letting this woman move in with her and within a week went to bank and removed 94K from her savings. Then a week later got her to sign a 300K house over to her for $10.00.

I first got wind of this when the detective called me about two weeks out of the triple bypass party (last October)I attended and he wanted me to come to NC and sign commitment papers on my 1st Cousin's Wife. 1st Cousin passed in 2012, his wife is is now 91. I told him I couldn't travel for another 30 days and he said that would be OK. In the interim he was investigating and found out about money removal. I had sent him disclosures I made to North Carolina DSS who took no action. He took one of them added what he got and DA told him to get a warrant quick and he did.

So tomorrow morning we head back to other end of state and home and will be back maybe next month for trial where I am hoping she will pick up 10 years and a day. Perp is 61 and retired school teacher ! ! ! !

 

[jeepnik]

Going back to the original M16, it was just fine for the range. Heck when it did fail you could just stop everything and fix it. The same rifle in actual usage would fail even more frequently and was the worst firearm ever foisted onto a GI.

And can you believe the USAF was still using original configuration M16's until at least the late 90's.

 

[Gordon]

I was allways a gun guy, since grade school, it ran in the family which actually had the biggest private gun collection imn the South up thru the early 60s and the Northern side were big time hunters and cops. I was brought up in NYC Chick Gaylord's and Val Forgetts stores by relatives . Anyway I brought my own Walther PP .380 over in 68 when I was dumped int a Saigon Hotel and the place was in complete chaos after Tet 68 and I had to scrounge to eat for a month , had no weapon issued and no pay or organization to report to. Finally the Aussies brought me to MACHV and I begin the fun and games. I was issued a 1911a1 with 3 mags ans 50 rounds of ammo, but they did give me A MACHV pass, so the rest was easy When I got to I Corp in Camp Evans I think I was issued an M16e1 and thought "what a POS!" truly Mattie Mattel and I did trade for a nice M!4 and carriers and checked that into company arms room when in Head Quarters. I never had formal Army m-16 training but I did learn on my own in OJT . The second tour I got me a Swedish K from a SF NCO who returned home, I did want a CAR but couldn't find one, I was flying most of the time in a LOACH or fixed wing ! Fast forward to 1976 when I was in reserves and was kicking back in Monterey Ca. intelligence stuff so I decided to buy a Colt CAR SP1 because of all that free ammo at Hunter Liggett ! My issue weapon was a S&W Model 10 2" barrel and I did qualify with it once a year with a dozen officers using 1911s The CAR was dragged all over California mountains and deserts until the early 80s when I learned fro Col Cooper it was not the hot set up ! I used other platforms until the later 90s when I decided to become a "training junkie" and the AR seemed the platform to beat, so I started buying and building them, The Aimpoint M2 on the SWAN gooseneck was a real game changer for me and by 2003 or so I had ARs I could really trust and begin to see they were the platform to beat in combat ..

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I was in country from May 68 to 69. The first thing I learned was I would be, as a REMF, issued an M-14. The second thing I learned was not to let it out of my sight when I was around real soldiers, who would steal it and leave their M-16 behind. I think the 16s were pretty well sorted, as the limeys would say, by that time. But a lot of the infantry guys on their second and third tours had bad memories of the earlier guns and they didn't trust them.

My girlfriend's dad was there for a tour in 66 and a second tour in 68. Also a REMF. He feels the same way about the M14 vs M16 discussion. I was going to buy him one of Brownell's retro M16s until I learned that he always felt safe with an M14 and never trusted the 16.

PS: He holds a view similar view to yours (as do I about my own time much later on) in regards to REMF vs guys in the combat arms.

 

[eastbank]

enough said, replacement for the m-16, for me. ok just kidding.

 

[entropy]

When I was in AIT, the drill teaching the Armorer School erroniously said that the poor performance of the early M16's was due to lack of operator maintenance. I made the mistake of correcting him in class, never should have done that!

When you get around to documenting the changes between the M16A1 and the M16A2, PM me. I have plenty of experience there, or with the change from the 1911 to the M9.