You must crimp to a 100lbs of bullet pull or else...

[jmorris]

Fascinating specification...100# of crimping force. How is one supposed to measure that?

There are a number of ways one could do that but that’s not what the quoted text is saying. “100 lbs bullet pull”, is the proposed argument and could be done with a scale.

I remember a thread a few years ago where it was speculated that air pressure created upon a bullet being seated was forcing it back out of the case. I don’t remember all of the details and not sure what forum it was on but a bullet being seated didn’t create enough pressure to dislodge it from neck tension in the cases I tested.



That 130 PSI is not the “bullet pull” resistance though because that bullet doesn’t have 1 square inch of area. It’s a .452 bullet so really only has about 20.8 lbs pushing it out at that pressure.

If that bullet would not pop out of the case at 625 PSI, it would satisfy the 100 lb bullet pull number. That pressure would go up as the diameter goes down as well. So a .224 bullet with .039 area would need to resist something like 2564 psi pushing against the bottom without popping out of the case.

Olympic air rifles would be highly inaccurate if those were the operating pressures needed to achieve bullet movement accurately. You would be looking at 4000 PSI with a .177 diameter projectile for 100 lbs of force to move it.

 

[PWC]

Yep, I still grab a cane pole every now and then to fish 6 ft from where I am sitting and remember the good old days, maybe teach a younger how to cook popcorn over a campfire and call a hot dog on a stick a good dinner. Life has a way of making things complicated, reloading does too. It’s a long path from making something that safely goes “bang” to quit looking for anything better, for some folks.

Yep, I still grab a cane pole every now and then to fish 6 ft from where I am sitting and remember the good old days,.....Life has a way of making things complicated, reloading does too.

What I wouldn't give to grab a cane pole and go bream or crappie fishing with my dad again.... Rod & reel is too much like work

 

[whm1974]

For the record, I have never done any reloading with whm1974.

I would give you the Bird, but that might be against the Forum Rules....

 

[FROGO207]

PWC you gotta go back to the basics and reload like you learned before these danged electronic devices messed with your attention span. Just shut it off and the world becomes MUCH simpler again. We all need to know when to turn things off and just plain relax!!

 

[markr6754]

PWC you gotta go back to the basics and reload like you learned before these danged electronic devices messed with your attention span. Just shut it off and the world becomes MUCH simpler again. We all need to know when to turn things off and just plain relax!!

I’m in that unfortunate group that knew nothing...literally nothing about reloading just over 2 years ago. All that I’ve learned about the sport came from the internet. I’m lucky that I’m a quick learner, but I wish I could sell back a lot of the equipment I bought because someone that knew a heck of a lot more than me told me that’s what I needed. But I also recognize my own culpability... I’ve bought a lot of unnecessary equipment as a quick fix to a “problem” rather than doing a cost benefit analysis. Like buying a neck turning tool so I could rescue about 30 thick necked pieces of brass...free 5.56 or .223 cases that I scavenged to make .300 Blackout cases. It’s a curse.

 

[FROGO207]

No curse - it's an adventure. I still learn something new every so often even after 30+ years fine tuning my reloading skills. Just when I get everything down a new gun will come into my life that I will need to reload for. How about .46 MAG louden boomer. And I am off to the LGS for reloading stuff..........

 

[.38 Special]

I’m in that unfortunate group that knew nothing...literally nothing about reloading just over 2 years ago. All that I’ve learned about the sport came from the internet. I’m lucky that I’m a quick learner, but I wish I could sell back a lot of the equipment I bought because someone that knew a heck of a lot more than me told me that’s what I needed. But I also recognize my own culpability... I’ve bought a lot of unnecessary equipment as a quick fix to a “problem” rather than doing a cost benefit analysis. Like buying a neck turning tool so I could rescue about 30 thick necked pieces of brass...free 5.56 or .223 cases that I scavenged to make .300 Blackout cases. It’s a curse.

I have several such tools, bought for the same reason. Take care of them. You may find them useful some day. My own foolishly aquired neck turning device ended up being one my most powerful tools, decades later, when I went in search of groups smaller than one tenth of an inch.

Of course, I now have no idea where it is.

 

[denton]

Consistent neck tension is important. Annealing can be one factor. Crimp is another. And your choice of forming die is yet another.

In my experience, the Lee collet neck sizing die provides less neck tension than a full length die. Maybe that is part of the reason Lee is recommending crimping?

If you are doing a roll crimp, then cases must be the same length if you want consistent release pressure.

I know I am in the minority, but I normally put a mild FCD crimp on practically all my bottleneck cartridges to get more uniform release pressures.

 

[hdwhit]

Well .... it would be interesting to hear from somebody who is actually crimping rifle bullets .... and not just in lever actions ...

The only two rifle cartridges I currently load for are .223 Remington and 5.7mm Johnson which are not typically considered lever-action cartridges.

The rule I follow is "If it has a canellure, I crimp into it, otherwise I don't."

Whatever cartridge it might be, I can't imagine how I would know my crimp generated the specified 100 pounds of resistance.

 

[Bartojc]

I've read what the OP quotes, probably from the same book. I haven't been reloading long enough to know it all either

I will say for bolt rifles I've tried crimp and no crimp. Sometimes no crimp is better, but I have had instances where I cannot tell the difference. Maybe its because I cannot shoot the difference. For an AR I crimp all rounds with a light crimp. It seems to make sense to be and I've never had issues doing so.

-Jeff

 

[Hikingman]

Which book?

Sorry, Lee Second Edition.

Which Lee Second Edition, or is the title a single word- Lee?

 

[Varminterror]

Which Lee Second Edition, or is the title a single word- Lee?

Would have thought it was self explanatory.

 

[whm1974]

Would have thought it was self explanatory.

View attachment 918010

What is the current Edition?

 

[Hikingman]

I would say the majority of us have no equip. to measure pull. On a different topic, measuring torque is a challenge for most of us armchair mechanics, too.

The book looks interesting, and thanks for the cover image!

 

[Otto]

Would like to see a discussion by the more knowledgeable and experienced folks here on THR to clarify this subject for me and others down the road. Has to be 100lbs of bullet pull to be accurate? To have proper ignition? To have proper velocity? For good functioning? If you don’t have 100lbs of bullet pull you will have problems? Problems that can only be alleviated by the bullet almost touching the rifling?

Bullet pull strength is the force necessary to separate a bullet from the cartridge casing. For Lee to set a value in stone is over generalizing....there's just too many variables in play. 100 lbs far exceeds the minimum requirements of a 5.56mm (M862) cartridge, which is spec'd at 35 lbf. On the other hand, 100 lbs falls far short of the 200 lbf minimum requirement of a .50 Cal. M33 round. The Lee FCD was designed to crimp cases even without a cannelure, that never appealed to me.

 

[Bugster]

I do use a slight crimp for my bolt guns just to ensure the neck tension is equal around the neck bullet junction. I can get sub MOA shots out of them all out to 100 yards. (The longest lane at the ranges I shoot at)

 

[243winxb]

minimum requirements of a 5.56mm (M862) cartridge, which is spec'd at 35 lbf.

I have seen the same listed on Federal 5.56 ammo. Minimum bullet pull, 35 lbs.

For a test In 45 acp , i used 5 different brands of brass & 200 gr cast bullets. Seated all with same die settings. Dummy rounds.

Using a bathnroom scale, i pushed each bullet into the case slowly. Had a wood lever to slowly apply pressure.
Took 45 lbs to over 100 lbs. The one that i applied the 100 lbs to, never moved. I gave up.

My 45 acp & another test of 30-06 in my photo albums.

 

[Bang!]

 

[Bang!]

“Revised and reformatted 2011”
“Reprinted 2012, 2013”

 

[Varminterror]

What is the current Edition?

Second. Updated in 2019 with a new final chapter.

 

[rdnktrkr]

I use the LFC die for my rifle rnds and magnum pistol rnds, I do a very light crimp a friend thought the die didn't touch the case but I showed him using a micrometer, early in my reloading I had a bullet come loose in my garand and ever since I've crimped

 

[Offfhand]

Well .... it would be interesting to hear from somebody who is actually crimping rifle bullets .... and not just in lever actions ...

I crimp .458 Win Mag loads for my bolt action rifles.

 

[jmorris]

1. The Lee FCD was designed to crimp cases even without a cannelure, that never appealed to me.
   
   
2. 
   I do use a slight crimp for my bolt guns just to ensure the neck tension is equal around the neck bullet junction.

Quoted 2 different posts on that one because without a cannelure in the bullet, the best you do is swage one into the bullet with the brass case. If this were consistent cannelure tools to impart a cannelure into the bullet prior to being loaded, wouldn’t be produced.
The problem is the same as post load sizing, over taper crimping or trying to further crimp a round with inadequate neck tension. All you wind up doing is swaging the lead down with the case and the softer lead stays put but the brass has “spring back”, so you just make things worse.

Thats where the threads of “crimped my bullets but can spin them in the case” come from. They are generally less accurate too because the were swaged smaller in diameter than originally.



At least with a rifle bullet you only disrupt the middle of the bullet and not the more important base, if you have the practice of crimping bullets than have no cannelure.

 

[mdi]

Well .... it would be interesting to hear from somebody who is actually crimping rifle bullets .... and not just in lever actions ...

When I first started reloading for my Garand I thought I had to firmly crimp the bullets in place. I used a Lee Collet Crimp. One time I "forgot" to crimp a few rounds (on purpose). I shot them after I tested them. Fired 7 rounds and ejected 8th and measured OAL. I did this a few times and none of the rounds shrunk, so I no longer crimp my 30-06 Garand fodder