Your opinions on the G3 platform and rifles

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dvdcrr

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I am currently shooting and learning more about my new PTR-91 which is an HK91 clone. I have switched a handguard out and am looking at finding a bipod, and looking into recoil reduction. I wanted to get your thoughts on the G3 rifle in general, best setups in terms of optics, slings, stocks, buffers... tips for shooting or reloading. Thanks! Side note: Is the SAR8 a good rifle?
edit for spelling
 
I like my PTR91 a lot. Don't shoot it much anymore, but then I don't shoot much anymore either.

If you can buy a stock and heavy buffer from HKparts.net you will notice the rifle is a bit smoother, less abrupt recoil. I also like the rubber butt pad you can get there.

Robert RTG Parts is another source for bits to improve your rifle. I would consider the port buffer if you intend to reload your brass. It both reduces the denting, and makes them easier to find.

The wide fore end and light bipod are nice additions as well.

Optics? I have the FeroZ24 scope and an illuminator and am quite happy with it. I tried some of those bolt on pic rails and was not impressed. Keep the scope length short or you will experience difficulty using the charging handle. If you can spring for it, the Fero night vision scope is a neat accessory. They are available now, but I think the supply of those devices is finite, so you might want to act quickly.

Bill Springfield does a magnificent trigger job.

If you can find a good 22 caliber kit for the rifle, it is also a fun accessory. Otherwise a suitable supply of magazines and I'd say you are good to go.
 
They are great rilfes,IMHO, they do make finding your brass harder, a port buffer takes care of that problem. RTG part has everything you could want, heavy buffer,will help with recoil. I've had C91, two PTR91s and a C93 in 5.56mm.Semper Fi
 

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I've had a couple. They're "ok" ............... but they are not M1A's
They are heavy, with considerably more recoil than is necessary because of the huge bolt carrier assembly, they're not known for being terribly accurate, they annihilate brass, that's if you can even find it, they are difficult to mount a scope that will hold zero, The sights are nothing special. So other than that I guess they're "ok" :rolleyes:
 
Are the drop in heavy buffers good to go? I hope so I just ordered the 60 dollar one from hk parts.
 
To me it seems like the recoil is the result of the normal impulse hitting your shoulder at the same time the carrier hits the back of the receiver. I have no way to prove that... I used to have an Armalite carbine of equal or less weight, for which I believe the complete bcg was as heavy as the ptr, yet the armalite recoil was surely less.
 
For a period of time some years ago, I owned, AT THE SAME TIME:

- an HK91

- several FN FALs ( British or Aussie L1A1s)

-an M1 Garand

two TRW-built M14s

-and an original AR-10 (Sudanese contract, built in the Netherlands)

All were 7,62 NATO except the Garand.

Out of this entire list, my LEAST favorite type was the HK91 or G3 rifle. I disliked its design, its sights, and I DETESTED its "ergonomics" .... the way it felt. It worked alright, and accuracy was also alright... but out of the group of rifles I owned, it was at the bottom of my preference list.

My most-favored type was the M14, by a narrow margin over the FAL. You would be hard-pressed in getting me to accept a FREE 91/PTR/G3 rifle; I'd take it, but only to trade off against something I really wanted.
 
I have to go with BruceB on this as well. My '91/G3 is a Greek/SA from decades ago ... it's very accurate for me. 97/100 on head shots from 100 yards. However, I'm an old school guy who likes conventional stocks made from wood ... so the M14/M1A which I had for even longer is still my "go-to" favorite for 7.62 X 51 shooting, with my L1A1 and Rosario FAL as second choices.
 
The guns recoil hard and fling brass crazily because the 308 cartridge is very nearly too big for them. This means the bolt assembly moves a lot faster than would be ideal, which leads to harsh recoil, and harsher ejection if a fixed blade (you know what I mean) ejector is used. IIRC, the G3 prototypes were in an intermediate cartridge like 280 British, which would be much more manageable (also see the MP5 which was specifically designed/adapted to the round it shot, and not changed halfway into the process). FWIW, my STG57, an LMG in 7.5 Swiss (308/30-06 equivalent) has a far more massive bolt assembly, rollers, recoil assembly, and hammer (and everything else). It shoots quite smoothly, and brass is pushed (not kicked) out the side into a neat pile ~3ft away. The G3 is more practical for solider carry (which is probably the main reason it beat out the STGW besides being a native design) but it comes at a cost of shootability.

As far as my intermediate cartridge/increased shootability theory; anyone own an HK 223 platform? Does handle a bit better in that department?

TCB
 
What would you recommend for an (in-stock )2 point sling and bipod.
 
Just do a search on how many countries are still using the M14/FAL/G3 and you will have your answer...G3 by far.

Also.. it was the FAL that was designed for the .280 and switched to .308
 
Bruce and I share the same sort of collection and experience. My rack right now includes both original inch and metric FAL's (original Australian Lithgow L1A1A, and FN G Series examples), "Many" Garands, an original Italian BM-59, a 1970's era M1A National Match, an original AR-10 (also a Sudanese contract, Dutch built one), and a HK-91 circa 1980. That's plus several FN-49's, and many other full sized cartridge battle rifles ranging from G-43's to Hakims. The HK is not my favorite (that goes to the FAL), but they are darned reliable and always seem to just work. I'd be happy to use one if that was all I had, but I'd always pick a FAL first. Unlike Bruce I just cannot learn to like the M-14 platform, but that's life.


"IIRC, the G3 prototypes were in an intermediate cartridge like 280 British, which would be much more manageable"

The French AME-49 is what you are thinking of, first in the original 7.92x33 Kurtz German cartridge, as well as some in the .30 carbine cartridge, and then finally in the French 7.65x35. That was followed by the Spanish CETME shooting the CETME 7.62x51 cartridge that is dimensionally the same as 7.62x51 NATO but with a reduced loading.



As far as my intermediate cartridge/increased shootability theory; anyone own an HK 223 platform? Does handle a bit better in that department?

I have both a standard size one and a SBR built from a C93 pistol. Love them. I have a soft spot for the sleeper in the HK line, and that's the 5.56mm HK-93, and it's clone in the form of the C93. The rifles seems to like being in 5.56mm better than in 7.62. I'm a real fan of those, but a reluctant shooter of the 91.


What would you recommend for an (in-stock )2 point sling and bipod.

Original HK stuff, which is easy to find.



Willie

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Wow, some real live misinformation in this thread.

"The .308 cartridge is nearly too big for them" - Please post your supporting facts for this statement.

"My" HK91 recoils extremely soft and smoothly with FAR less recoil than my SCAR17S, even with the A-3 stock.
- Lots of folks like to call the SCAR17 a soft shooting .308, go figure.
"My" HK91 slings the brass quite a long way but doesn't damage it and it is 100% reloadable.
"My" HK91 has no issues with the .308 cartridge, handles well and will shoot less than 1 MOA at 100 yards.

Roller guns, generally speaking, shoot very smoothly.

Calling an HK91 heavy and picking an M1A over it is kind of an interesting position to take as I doubt most people could tell the difference.

M1A = 9.3#
HK91 = 9.63#

The MR556 I own shoots very nicely as well, also sub MOA and is a bit front heavy because of the heavy profiled match grade barrel. Both are great rifles and your choice depends on what caliber and distance you want to shoot. I don't yet own the HK93 but it is on the list and I will be able to speak to it as well at some point.
 
I have no complaints about my HK-91 from 1979.
Most complaints about the G3 platform come from Clone Owners.
I have Had the M1A the BM59 and others like the Garand.
But the Hk is the only one I really wanted to keep.
I will take it over an AR-10 anyday
 
I have never owned one, but my friend does. Out of all the rifles I have shot, they are the absolutely worst when it comes to ergonomics. It is as if they purposely made them that bad.
 
I have been using the 91-A2/A3 since the early 1980's; it always works. It is heavy. With a port buffer it is easier on brass and steel cases (I reload both). It's accuracy with my reloads is decent (1.5" at 100 yards). With a five round magazine I have used it for successful big game hunting. I don't care for claw-type optics mounting. Ergonomically it is about the worst rifles I have ever used; to manipulate the safety I must shift my grip. Magazines are dirt cheap. From a manufacturing standpoint, the rifle is very cheap to produce. That is why I suppose so many third-world countries have them. Due to this, I think it makes a great shipboard rifle; sail into a foreign port that forbids weaponry, dump them overboard and sail in. Simple.
 
^^^ Pretty much sums it up. The port buffers are a real improvement if you want to reload for them. While I've done so in the past with good results, I don't even bother to look for the brass from my Milsurps now. It's just not worth my time. The ergonomics do most certainly suck on these and on that I think almost anyone who's shot a variety of rifles would agree. Scope mounting.... <sigh>....

The last observation made above is the definitive one: These are just a highly refined derivitive of the Stg-45 and were designed ab-initio to be as cheap and easy to build as is possible. They are *literally* dispose-a-rifles and the fact that they work as well as they do is a testiment to highly superior engineering *of a dispose-a-rifle*. I don't put them into the same family as "high quality" battle rifles (Quality in this context meaning forged and machined non-stamped receiver rifles) like the FN FAL or M-14. They are unique in that they are the only widely distributed "stamped metal cheapie" in 7.63x51, competing on the world stage with the (also stamped metal "cheapie") AKM.

If you don't think well of me calling it a "stamped metal cheapie" and lumping it in with the AKM, ask yourself what two rifles lend themselves to being built at home from a flat of sheet metal, a simple bending fixture, a Harbor Freight hydraulic press, and a welder? That would be the AKM and the HK. They share the same manufacturing processes and are very similar in *industrial production design* (not operational design). That stands to reason, as both are the product of the immediate postwar study of the Stg-44 and Stg-45 designs of the Germans, with Vorgrimmler (who designed the Stg-45) going on to develop the French AME-49 (Google it), and then the CETME, and finally the G3. He only reluctantly designed for the 7.62x51, having originally worked with 9.92x33 Kurtz and the .30 Carbine cartridges for his original designs. Kalishnikov designed originally to the paradigm of forged and machined (AK-47) but quickly came to stampings (AKM). Stamped and Welded is the paradigm of both the HK and the AKM, both came from German WW-II ideas (with the HK being a direct derivitive), and that's what sets them apart from a production standpoint. They are both "Cheapies" designed to be easy to produce, and reliable when used in the bush by people only barely removed from savages.

As the HK55, HK33, HK93, and C93, all in 5.56mm which a cartridge more suited to that genre of "assault rifle" (true intermediate cartridge) design, it's a winner. I would like to shoot one of the 7.62x39 versions but they were never produced in numbers and are as rare as hens teeth.


Willie

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I purchased an HK91 at a time when they were cheaper than most of the other rifles on the market. I compared them to what was used by the previous generation of soldiers, the M1A, Mausers, etc.

In terms of recoil, the two part cycling of unlocking the bolt and then rebounding it off the buffer meant it was a lower impulse that was spread out longer. Much less perceived force compared to a bolt action, it was a softer shooter, and easier to control plinking off full mags. We did that in the day, surplus .308 was 25c a round.

The ergonomics were fine - you hold a gun up at the shoulder and off hand, it had some drop in the stock with the sights a bit elevated using the claw mount. It was plenty accurate enough, the barrels were hammer forged even then. Most Euro battle rifles did that because their investment in the future was assured by government contracts that embraced improvements, unlike Colts arrangement with the US Army. Compared to the existing guns - they were all a bit different, and they all had drop in the stock in the traditional manner. It's the straight line buffer design that forces more work arounds in some respects.

Accessories, not so much. Like any other non-AR design, it's single source and proprietary. Back then the dollar vs mark exchange was decent, but only "GI" parts existed. The private market couldn't create enough demand for newer accessories for a gun that could be seen to be in it's latter stages of fielding. All the contracts were mostly finished for first tier nations, and the second tier buying them took what they got with few modification. So all we had were slim line Euro or fat tropical handguards. It wasn't until two decades later, after I had sold it, that magazines dropped under $10, wood or OD furniture became available, etc. In terms of accessories, things are better now than ever. Then we blocked a standard 20 round mag to ten for hunting purposes as the five rounders were $45. Couldn't afford it.

In use, they were no heavier than other .308's of the day, and there were plenty around in the early days of 3 Gun against the FN and others. But the design limited being able to tinker with it, so it was left behind in those circles. That is it's biggest limitation - there is very little anyone wants to do to alter timing, as it's mostly controlled by the cam shaping on the roller lock nose of the bolt. Nobody wants to chance grinding them wrong or experimenting. There's very little public knowledge and it's high level gun designer work.

Overall, they are good rifles, you take them as they are in the most part. What has undercut them and the other .308's is the huge availability of the AR and it's modular design that allows the owner to change it at will. A more important aspect is that the .308 has three times the recoil impulse - and it two pounds heavier. The average soldier can shoot the intermediates more accurately and more often. A range trip with a .308 is usually limited to less than 100 rounds, the AR often double or triple that. It's exactly why the military went to smaller calibers - it's easier to shoot, so more shots are taken. More bullets in the air means more hits and the enemy suffers more combat power loss.

I pretty much shot my HK91 as is, for what it was. My AR, nope, I built it originally as a 6.8 dissipator with 16" barrel and rifle handguards, A1 stock. It's now being transformed to an adjustable carbine buffer with MFT Minimalist and Apex free float. That sort of thing is nearly impossible with an HK, and the AR is much easier and more pleasant to shoot, even with the bigger bullet of 6.8 - up to double the grain weight. I don't miss the HK much at all, and the deer don't seem to notice any difference either. They are still shot and fall down from over 1,000 foot pounds out to the visible range I can see them.
 
"The .308 cartridge is nearly too big for them" - Please post your supporting facts for this statement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HacUqZN8t4Q&feature=player_embedded#t=414

Not to put esteemed member Ian on the spot, or anything, but it's pretty clear the STGW is a whole lot larger in every way than the H&K, which was designed to be as light as possible and early in its development was 8x33 Kurz (I misremembered the 280 Brit), and kept the bolt/rifle size comparable even after the cartridge was bulked up by NATO; that is to say, the 308 is near the limit of what the roller/cam/bolt design specs can accommodate. In a blowback, that means the bolt moves faster and extracts violently, as well as impacting the buffer more violently. With a fixed (or frame-pivoting; you know what I mean) ejector, that means brass is violently ejected. I'll grant that the worst examples people see are probably closer to one end of the allowable spec (harsher vs. weaker operation), but those are the rifles that are available in many cases, so they are the ones the platform gets judged by. A factory new G3 at nominal spec obviously wouldn't suffer these issues so much (still a bit, though). It is entirely possible that your rifle lies closer to the nominal or even weaker-operating side, which would make operation much smoother, but less authoritative (not the same as unreliable, btw)

TCB
 
My old copy of "There Art of the Rifle" by Cooper shows a 91-A3 being used in the chapter eight, The Rest Positions. The rifle used in the illustrations I believe is the same one now resting in the Sconce. When looking over the firearms down there, that HK does indeed stick out. Interesting.
 
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The g3 design is obviously offending some folks' sensibilities. It does have stamped sheet metal. However the receiver is rigid with good tolerances. I will not be throwing mine away until it can no longer fire or be repaired which I suspect would be a long long time.
 
^^ I don't think that anyones sensibilities are offended.

Commenting on it's design and evolution is an excercise in engineering, and it's engineering is just a set of facts. It's one of the most commercially successful 7.62x51mm rifles ever built, on a par with the FAL sales wise with those as a pair far ahead of any other competition including the M-14.

It's a tour de force of industrial design. That doesn't make it's ergonomics any better though...



"The rifle used in the illustrations I believe is the same one now resting in the Sconce. When looking over the firearms down there, that HK does indeed stick out."

That's a fact. The Colonel had a liking for the 91A3 that nobody else could ever understand. It was a real standout in his rack.


Willie

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Hi Willie;
Question for you, or anybody else with early Orange Gunsite tenure: Did Mel Tappan (whom I believe was an HK-91 fan) ever do anything with Cooper back in the day?
SplitHoof
 
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