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Zastava PPZ 7.62x25mm

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Brin, Apr 19, 2013.

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  1. Brin

    Brin Member

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    Zastava is coming out with a new pistol in the next 6 to 8 months.
    The Zastava PPZ will feature a polymer frame, interchangeable back strap and an extended Mil-Std-1913 rail that will run the entire length of the slide. The gun is designed from the ground up around the .45ACP caliber, but 9x19mm version is also expected along with a .40 S&W version. It is expected that the design will be modular requiring only the barrel, recoil spring, magazine and possibly the extractor to convert the gun from one caliber to another. There are unconfirmed rumors that the pistol will also be available in 7.62x25mm Tokarev caliber. It is estimated that the magazine capacity in .45ACP caliber will be 14 rounds, 15 rounds in .40S&W caliber, 17 or 18 rounds in 9mm (based on capacity increases prototyped in Zastava CZ 07 / M-07 prototype), while in 7.62x25mm the capacity is estimated to be 20 rounds.
    The Zastava PPZ is in the final stages of design, undergoing reliability testing as of April 2013.
    Damn 20 rounds of 7.62x25mm in a modern pistol I won’t one.
     
  2. blackrussian

    blackrussian Member

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    A hi capacity polymer Tokarev would be pretty awesome. What 7.62x25 ammo options are available currently? (Other than surplus).
    Prototype pic from Wikipedia:
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Sam Cade

    Sam Cade Member

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  4. Paladin7

    Paladin7 Member

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    Love that "hang over the edge" rear sight...tacticool....:banghead:
     
  5. Devonai

    Devonai Member

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    Convertible pistol = different story depending on whose perspective you take. :)
     
  6. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    I'm not sure why the 7.62x25 version would have a capacity any different than the 9mm version. Base diameter on 7.62x25 is 9.83mm and on 9x19 it's 9.93mm - pretty negligible difference.

    As to modern ammo - Prvzi Partizan and Sellier & Bellot make it for sure. Winchester markets some 7.62x25 ammo but I think it's just rebadged S&B.
     
  7. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Mag is different, and that little bit added to a lower floorplate, lets the squeeze one more in
    just a guess, since it's double stacked, it's not linear, it's geometric, that little bit, lets the rounds sit lower, hence less dead space.
     
  8. Twmaster

    Twmaster Member

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    That rear sight hanging over is a great way to pull a fingernail off while trying to cock the hammer back...

    Otherwise a modern pistol in 7.62x25 would be neat. I'd consider buying one.
     
  9. barnbwt

    barnbwt Member

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    Finally! A modern pistol in Tokarev! We'll finally put to bed all that noise about 7.62x25 not being a duty round. It'll go great with the five-seven :)

    TCB
     
  10. Snowdog

    Snowdog Member

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    I'll believe it when I see it on the shelves.
     
  11. Twmaster

    Twmaster Member

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    Exactly. The OP lifted everything from Wikipedia and we all know how reliable that is.
     
  12. Robbins290

    Robbins290 Member

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    I hope soo. I would love a modern pistol in 762x25
     
  13. Ash

    Ash Member

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    Interesting for a prototype.
     
  14. sigma 40ve

    sigma 40ve Member

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    Modern? I thought my CZ52's were modern state of the art designs.
     
  15. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    They were "modern" when art deco was "modern"

    I like Art Deco and the CZ52 - just remember that "modern" is a moving target.
     
  16. Stringfellow

    Stringfellow Member

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    The top half of the pistol looks like an FNP--which is not a bad thing.
     
  17. Ash

    Ash Member

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    Modern? There is nothing modern being made today if the CZ-52 is not modern.

    The SIG 220 is single stack like the CZ.
    The lock-up is used by super-expensive custom pistols such as made by Korriphilla.
    Single action? 1911 and Hi Power (or, to toss a bone, Hi Point).
    Caliber? Well, a 30-caliber bottleneck might be oldish, but what about a .357 bottleneck?

    Heck, even Glock lovers have a design that is, at best, 40 years old but with design elements (major design features) that go back 80-130 years. Striker-fired guns are past 100 years in design, double-stack magazines were invented by James Paris Lee in the 1880's. Safety on the trigger? The Germans did that first long before WWII. Ah, something new in polymer right? Nope, about 40 years for that one in pistols, more than that in rifles.

    All auto pistols use designs that, at this point, are more dated now than flint-locks were in the Revolutionary War. Nothing is modern if the CZ-52 is not modern.
     
  18. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    Not being modern doesn't mean "useless". Modern is simply a collection of features that taken as a whole represents the most commonly accepted design element at the current time. The 1911 for example is not modern, despite being a great seller.

    1. Despite there being other single stacks on the market, it is accepted that the majority of pistols in that size range - particularly with a cartridge case of that diameter - will be double stack designs.
    2. The heel magazine release has fallen out of favor.
    3. There is no external slide release.
    4. The gun is single action hammer fired. Yes, single actions are still made and are still useful, but the prevalent action types are DA/SA and striker fired.
    5. The frame is steel. Most modern duty weapons being introduced are polymer framed.
    6. The grip material (at least on many) is bake-lite, which is generally not used anymore.
    7. The safety lever's pivot position is ahead of the lever. This is awkward and very uncommon.
    8. The sights are tiny. Newer duty weapons have trended towards somewhat more prominent sights as one can align them more quicky.

    Don't get me wrong - I own a CZ-52 and like it, but to call it modern is to water down the term modern so much that it comes useless as a descriptor.
     
  19. Twmaster

    Twmaster Member

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    Interesting POV mgmorden. (I love my CZ52's Both of them, 9MM and 7.62TOK) I also think the CZ52 is a surprisingly modern gun for a 60+ year old design and considering the COMBLOC sphere of influence etc in the 1950's.

    The thing is most of the points you outline above are more along the thinking of features rather than modernity (IMHO) (sights, slide release, mag release and safety specifically)

    Other items like the steel frame and hammer are still commonly found on "modern" handguns. (Beretta 92, CZ75's for example)

    My thinking is all autoloaders produced in the last 60-70 years are, to abuse the word, modern. Some are more crude than others. Some are more featureful than others. Some are fantastic plastic and others are sturdy steel framed.

    Until somebody comes up with a whole new way of designing an autoloading pistol I think my comments stand as the current level of design is the same as it's been for nearly 100 years. Materials and manufacturing processes of course being the exception.
     
  20. Ash

    Ash Member

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    Striker is not the most prevalent design and it certainly is not the most modern. Indeed, striker designs are older than anyone posting on this forum. Heck, polymer frames are older than the majority posting here.

    Prevalent means in general use. 1911's are prevalent, as are CZ's, Berettas, SIG's, Hk's, and other pistols. They are all modern. Modern does NOT mean prevalent. Strikers are not more modern than hammer, they are different approaches to the problem of ignition.

    Not to argue too much, but I disagree with your points by and large:

    1. Despite there being other single stacks on the market, it is accepted that the majority of pistols in that size range - particularly with a cartridge case of that diameter - will be double stack designs - doesn't matter. SIG 220 is single stack, as are most 1911's.
    2. The heel magazine release has fallen out of favor - doesn't make the push-button more modern.
    3. There is no external slide release - so?
    4. The gun is single action hammer fired. Yes, single actions are still made and are still useful, but the prevalent action types are DA/SA and striker fired. So?
    5. The frame is steel. Most modern duty weapons being introduced are polymer framed most, but not all.
    6. The grip material (at least on many) is bake-lite, which is generally not used anymore. Grips? Really? That makes it not modern? Indeed, bakelite is a type of polymer.
    7. The safety lever's pivot position is ahead of the lever. This is awkward and very uncommon. So being modern is defined by its location?
    8. The sights are tiny. Newer duty weapons have trended towards somewhat more prominent sights as one can align them more quicky.
     
  21. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    Ash: We're going to have to agree to disagree. Look at the industry's trends. Out of the very companies you listed, if you look at their new designs (not older ones that they continue to sell), all seem to be moving in a converging direction.

    Beretta, CZ, SIG, AND HK all have come out with and are promoting polymer designs. As a matter of fact if you look at all the newly introduced designs in the last 10 years polymer will VASTLY outnumber the metal-framed designs.

    Similarly, if you look at ignition systems, how many new designs for duty-style pistols have come out in the last decade or so that aren't either DA/SA or striker fired (notice that I noted BOTH those types in my post as being prevalent, not just striker fired).

    How many duty-sized pistols - particularly shooting a cartridge that is less than 10mm in diameter at the base - are single stack? Remember, we're talking about new designs, and we're talking about *TRENDS*. A single example otherwise such as the SIG P220 (which is a 38 year old design, but I'm letting it slide) doesn't disprove a trend.

    Look at newly designed guns within the last decade and how many come with a heel mag release? Virtually none. All the new guns are trending towards the button style release (even Walther appears to be abandoning their paddle-release they tried in their newer designs).

    The other quirks of the design that I mention that you're so quick to dismiss simply are a matter of stacking tolerances. They're different, and enough different things together tend to make a design "old fashioned" after they've fallen out of favor.

    Realistically, if the CZ-52 is considered modern, then there's virtually no semi-auto pistol that ISN'T modern. The distinction then looses any meaning. An adjective that fits virtually everything isn't very useful in speech or description.

    I think the problem is too many people panic and think that they must defend any design they like as being modern else it isn't useful or worth owning. That's not the case. A 1955 Corvette isn't a modern car by any stretch of the imagination, but there are tons of people that would love to have one. It doesn't mean that its without use, or in any way undesirable, but the common, new production iteration of the automobile has a vastly different feature-set and design preferences.
     
  22. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    Do want!
     
  23. Ash

    Ash Member

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    "there's virtually no semi-auto pistol that ISN'T modern."

    That's my point, you're talking trending, which isn't the same. CZ did introduce a polymer striker gun, then discarded it. They then introduced a polymer hammer-fired gun and it is doing well. Indeed, consider that in the last 5 years, more hammer-fired pistols have come on the market than striker-fired ones (CZ, FN, and others). By that logic, striker-fired is not modern. Heck, by that logic, Glock has come up with nothing new in 30 years, as every Glock is a repeat of previous designs. Ergo, Glocks are not modern or at the very least, cannot be included in this discussion.

    Tell me a feature used today that was not introduced in a successful production pistol newly more than 30 years ago. The only thing would be the FN Five seveN and nobody else is going that route (even then, only the slide design offers any departure).

    It seems, without malice, that your idea of modern is merely what runs with the pack. Reality TV is the only modern TV, right, as scripted shows are so 20th Century. So, new scripted shows must by definition be old and not modern because the newest shows have typically been Reality TV.

    In short, beginning in the late 1800's and ending before WWII, with a brief bit of innovation in the 1970's (the SIG evolution of the Browning lock up plus Hk's use of polymers in frame-construction in a pistol), everything you call modern was already in regular use. My grandfather, born in 1911, would have been familiar with every feature used on any "modern" pistol before he got married to my grandmother except SIG and plastic.

    In other words, modernity and pistols aren't walking together realistically.
     
  24. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    I'd argue that they are, but lets go with your definition. OK. All semi-auto pistols are "modern" as you insist. The term is now pretty much useless. Its like saying cold snow. All snow is cold, so there's no point in adding it as a descriptor.

    Therefore, we need a nice, descriptive term for a doublestack, polymer, DA/SA or striker fired, duty sized pistol with a normal mag and slide release. Apparently to call such design specifications "modern" is an offense to one's dignity, but its clearly what the market wants these days, and its clearly a set of specifications that the CZ-52 DOES NOT adhere to.

    Would you care to propose a descriptive term for such features other than modern so that we can move on with the discussion of a pistol that people would want these days?
     
  25. Robbins290

    Robbins290 Member

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    I mean modern, as in currently being made. Have modern features. Like night sights and a rail.
     
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