FBI looking at 9x19mm sidearms

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07-25-2014, FBI released a pre-solicitation notice for 9x19mm semi-auto pistols

Since this notice is for commercial "off the shelf" 9x19mm semi-auto pistols for informational and planning purposes only, it would appear that the FBI is considering adopting 9x19mm pistols to replace their current issue .40S&W Glock pistols.

The notice calls for four types of pistols:
*Class One Pistol: barrel length between 3.75" and 4.25"; with a minimum magazine capacity of 13 rounds.
*Class Two Pistol: barrel length between 4.5" and 5.5"; with a minimum magazine capacity of 15 rounds.
*Class One Training Pistol (Red Handle): deactivated with full articulation, red receiver and slide, night sights.
*Class One "Man Marking" (a.k.a., "Simunitions") pistol: blue slide or slide with blue inserts.

Since Glock already makes all four types of pistols (Glock 19, Glock 34, Glock 19P, Glock 19T), the notice seems to be tailored for Glock.
 
Would make sense. It would eliminate the need for new holsters and retraining. I like the 40 slightly better, but with today's better bullets there isn't a lot of difference. Ammo will always be cheaper and most folks shoot 9mm a little better.
 
They need to just use lower powered .40 ammo for practice.

I have no doubt they could find a molly coated lead slug, say 180 gr, loaded to 850 fps and it would do for training ammo.

Deaf
 
MHS Industry Day.....

The big DoD/US military "Industry Day" is this week; 07/29/2014. :D
Maybe a few agents & cadre from the Firearms Training Unit will be at the event to see what shakes out.

I agree that Glock already seems to be the FBI's "go to" pistol.
Budget cutbacks & tight $ may screen out makers like HK or SIG Sauer.

The last I heard, the FBI shut down the academy in Quantico due to funding. :eek:
 
Budget cutbacks & tight $ may screen out makers like HK or SIG Sauer.
As it should.

I don't mean to turn this into a Manufacturer X versus Manufacturer Y debate, but what do you really get from Hk and/or SIG that you don't get from Glock? Really. I mean, if Glock had a reputation for mediocre quality (much less, poor quality), I could see a LE agency desiring Hk or SIG, but the opposite is true. There's about as much talk regarding malfunctions with Glocks as with Hks and SIGs. Given the exponentially higher number of Glock owners than Hk or SIG owners in the US, "damn, that's impressive" doesn't quite say it. Like it or not, Glock makes a great product for the price they charge, compared to companies like Hk and SIG. Those are also superb products, don't get me wrong. But with Glock sitting at the big-boy table, it's nigh impossible to justify spending ~2x on an Hk or ~1.5x on a SIG when budget matters - as it does (or ought to) in the world of government-funded spending.

My interpretation of Hk and SIG is simple, and about the same as I view BMW. I know BMW makes an outstanding vehicle, just as Hk and SIG make outstanding pistols. I also know the biggest difference between a BMW and a Honda is the envious looks a BMW driver gets from a guy, or the flirty looks from the girl in a Honda. In the most materialistic country in the history of mankind, nothing says, "Look at me! I'm a success!" like buying something thats 1.5x better for 2x the cost. You think Ferrari is in business because their car is 10x better (on the low end) than a Honda in any quantifiable sense? Give me a break. They thrive for the same reason SIG and Hk thrive: If you can swing it, it's easy to convince yourself that you need a higher quality product, even if you know the higher cost of that product is greatly unbalanced to the benefit. The more people who do buy those products, the more justifiable it is to the next guy for whom it's just barely out of reach. And voila, enter America's overwhelming debt problem.

Comparing Ferrari to Hk is a stretch, I agree. But the business model is the same; the difference isn't in the concept, but in the scope of the application. Suppose you invent a completely new type of product Z. Fifty years from now this product has taken, and it's in every home in America. Over the next fifty years, there will be ten new companies making and selling a slight variation of product Z. One company will make it 20% "better" (options, aesthetics, power/volume/capacity, etc) and charge 1.5x. Another company will make it 75% "better" and sell it for 3x the cost. Another company will cut a couple corners and make it 10% "worse," but they'll only charge 75% of what you do. All these companies will thrive, and they all basically sell the same product; but if people are in varied income brackets, there's a market for each of the varieties of product Z, even if, ultimately, they all do the same thing.

"Product value" isn't an obscure, subjective concept. It's objective and concrete, like black and white, true and false. Today more than at any time in world history, people want to pretend everything is subjective. Even right and wrong is viewed as being subjective. Similarly, marketers want you to believe value is subjective, and many people believe it. The truth is that value is a basic concept that compares cost to quality (generic "value" graph below). Quality is simply a measure of something's ability to do that which it was designed to do. Features are not a component of quality. Aesthetics are not a component of quality. These are other variables which act on value, as in value + features. Since value is both concrete and measurable, it stands to reason that when comparing similar products of varied quality and/or varied cost (example: guns manufactured by Glock, SIG, and Hk), one of these products actually represents the best value. For the private buyer, value is (rightly so) irrelevant unless he personally chooses to make it a priority in his spending. For a government-funded purchase, value needs to be everything. For the entity funding the government (you and me), to allow anything less is wasteful and self-defeating.

I am not saying Glock represents the best value in firearms. I don't believe that's true. What I'm saying is that value exists and is measurable, and as such, I want it to be considered when the government buys things with the money I give them. After all, America is $16 trillion in debt. It doesn't take a financial expert to realize things should probably change at some point.
 

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I don't get it...

Exactly what is the big deal about which sidearm and caliber the FBI uses? The FBI largely consist of accountants who do detailed background checks. They are not on the streets like the typical LEO nor are they a military force.

If I was an FBI agent sitting behind a desk all day and required to be armed (to protect myself from who/what?), I'd probably opt for a compact 380.
 
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Cold Zero, Donnie Broscoe, No Heroes.....

I suggest reading the non fiction books; Cold Zero, Donnie Broscoe, My FBI, No Heroes.
Cold Zero & No Heroes detail the selection, missions & weapons of the elite HRT(hostage rescue team). The FBI set up the HRT to deal with high profile counter terrorist ops & high risk warrants/arrests/investigations.
My FBI details the long career of Louis Freeh who worked as a undercover agent & later served as Director of the FBI. Donnie Broscoe was the alias of FBI special agent John Pistone. He worked UC against several organized crime networks.
Most UCs are "under" for 6mo to 18mo total, Pistone did it for about five years continuously.

The FBI does a lot. They have several divisions & field offices. A lot of it is office work & reports but they also make arrests & do raids.
 
I also know the biggest difference between a BMW and a Honda is the envious looks a BMW driver gets from a guy, or the flirty looks from the girl in a Honda. In the most materialistic country in the history of mankind, nothing says, "Look at me! I'm a success!" like buying something thats 1.5x better for 2x the cost.

You don't know what you don't know. The difference isn't as large with a Glock vs HK comparison, but just as real.
 
The public tends to focus on the status of an organization and the sorting process that prevents the average guy from finding a job there. The result is that they appear to be a highly disciplined hard working bunch who face danger daily and survive. In general they can do that, but in reality "face danger daily and survive" is largely about eating an unhealthy breakfast and the morning commute.

Reality aside, the overblown public image then concentrates on the tools and selection process, especially among those who think the tools and selection of them amounts to being as good as a FBI agent. Hence, the rise of the internet commando, who has to own all the cool gear, but buys his clothing only from vendors who cater to those who couldn't even pass the physical.

Added to that a number of media churners who do exactly the same but at least hold the waistline and get out to shoot. All this makes the protocol look as if it's relevant for the daily CCW carrier - who isn't an LEO in duty uniform, won't likely be using a 5" barreled double stack double action, and by reason of sanity avoids running to the sound of gunfire.

Because of that many carry large duty autos because "the FBI does," but when the chips hit the fan, we hear of a Pennsylvania doctor using a .32 Seecamp at near contact distances stopping a distraught patient gone berserk.

It's no different than the continuing conversation held over in knife forums - "What's the best knife to carry?" and the answer most don't want to hear, "The one you have." That is because the question when asked in forums is "What icon of masculinity is the top rated because I'm trying to enhance my image?" Not, "What is the better tool to use?"

As long as men attempt to possess icons that they think will elevate their social status, they will keep trying to one-up each other, and the game plays on. Do FBI agents get in gunfights on a daily basis? No, as said, they do a lot of background and forensics. Not combat. Same for local LEO's and detectives, but there are those who carry two 1911's in shoulder holsters on a daily basis. When you can go Miami Vice on the job, some do, and it just ratchets up the showmanship another level.

In comparison, their European counterparts tended to use .32's, .380s, and 9mm's for decades, and some of those guns are small enough that our government considers them too evil and won't let them be imported. Obviously they aren't compelled to compensate as much in their social structure.

PS the normal rule is to practice with full power ammo. First, the contract price is pretty good on hundreds of thousands of rounds, second, you train the way you fight - not at a lower impact level that won't condition you to the reality. There's also the possibility of getting a full mag of training ammo in your pistol and then needing to use it on the street - with less than full results. So, just say no to training ammo, it's really a concept that civilians use to cut their costs pulling the trigger and poking holes in piles of dirt.

The Army pretty much gave up on .22 adapters for target practice, they are still too lethal for training. When your class room is a 360 degree two way range and you move while you shoot, then "training ammo" amounts to simunitions or lasers. Not puffball ammo shooting paper targets.
 
The FBI set up the HRT to deal with high profile counter terrorist ops & high risk warrants/arrests/investigations.

Typical government way of doing business. They have a small group dedicated to special ops and will spend $100,000,000 to arm all their accountants to sit behind a desk.
 
For a government-funded purchase, value needs to be everything.

You do understand that best value doesn't mean the cheapest price? When done correctly, there are separate evaluations for the price and technical portions of the bid.

The cost evaluators never get to see the technical portion, and the technical evaluators never get to see the price portion.

If the bid criteria is the best technical answer, then the best value is the bid that has the highest technical score, and not necessarily the lowest price.
 
I am not saying Glock represents the best value in firearms. I don't believe that's true. What I'm saying is that value exists and is measurable, and as such, I want it to be considered when the government buys things with the money I give them. After all, America is $16 trillion in debt. It doesn't take a financial expert to realize things should probably change at some point.

Simply using factory reloaded ammo with cheap cast lead bullets would save more. They practice with full field ready jhp service ammo. No real reason for that, none. imho.

We all know of pistols that run well past 10, 15, 20, 25,000 rounds with just replacement springs, possibly extractors etc. I've seen police trade pistols. Holster wear is there, but very little barrel, slide, component wear. So, why do they "need to" change? My guess, they budgeted for it and want shiny new toys (on our dime).
 
"what do you really get from Hk and/or SIG that you don't get from Glock?"

Safety. You get a lot less AD's going into the gunowners leg.
 
Maybe I am stating the obvious, but it seems as though they specifically avoided a barrel length of 4.4 inches, which IIRC would be the SIG 226, but not the HK VP9 or USP? Stranger still that they would do this and avoid the G17 to jump to the G34.

Maybe it is me, but it seems very strange to avoid one specific barrel length that happens to be that of what are possibly the two most popular 9mm's in the world.

Best
J
 
They transition to 9mm and then they are fully ammunition compatible with the US military and National Guard supply chain (and vice versa) in the event of domestic civil unrest. This is probably the underlying reason for domestic law enforcement to transition out of .40 S&W and back into 9mm.
 
They transition to 9mm and then they are fully ammunition compatible with the US military and National Guard supply chain (and vice versa) in the event of domestic civil unrest. This is probably the underlying reason for domestic law enforcement to transition out of .40 S&W and back into 9mm


So, I should get a 9mm to be compatible with the future overlords? :rolleyes:

Actually, I was with you until the civil unrest part.
 
Post 15.....

I don't quite understand the point of post #15, :confused: .
If he/she were to meet & talk to a FBI special agent who spent 6 weeks tracking & observing a "high value target" in a 3rd world s-hole then pulling off a "rendition" without getting either themselves, their team members, the subject or any by-standers injured or killed then I think it would be a clearer view of what some FBI agents really do. :rolleyes:

They don't "just" sit behind desks pushing paper. Also, the FBI is comprised of many types of professionals; lawyers, CPAs, PhDs, MDs, nurses/RNs, retired military(some who may still serve in reserve or NG units), etc.
One former FBI deputy director was a TV reporter & long time newscaster in a major market before she decided to join the FBI.
 
Great now we won't be able to find any 9mm on the shelves. Any word on large gov 9mm contracts?:rolleyes:
 
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