Zastava PPZ 7.62x25mm

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I'm going to go with a governmental definition of modern. "To be defined as modern a handgun may have no more than two of these archaic features 1: manual safety, 2: grip safety, 3: hammer fired, 4: capacity under 10, 5: all metal construction, 6: wooden grips."
 
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Market? Seems to me the market is just fine with hammers, safeties, grips, single-action, single stacks.

Or, am I wrong that the 1911 and SIG 220, plus most pocket pistols, fit that description?

By your definition, nothing is modern if it isn't plastic striker-fired.
 
By your definition, nothing is modern if it isn't plastic striker-fired.

Where do you keep getting the striker fired only thing? In each and every one of my posts I've clearly stated that both DA/SA and striker fired guns are fine to be considered modern. Single action hammer fired - not so much. Aside from the 1911 variants and very limited production of the Hi-Power, new production single action guns are almost non-existent.

Yes the 1911 is still around, but its fueled largely out of nostalgia. Look at the issued duty weapons amongst military and law enforcement, and the 1911 is so rare that its not even worth mentioning. Its still around, but aside from flat out copies of the 1911 many of the design features of that gun have been abandoned in new designs. Does that make it a bad gun? No, but it does make it a niche product, and most certainly not modern.

Even the pocket pistols that you bring up - yes, as a category they are largely single stack but this thread wasn't started about a pocket pistol - it was started about a duty sized pistol. Pocket pistols are single stack specifically to get an advantage in carry size (ie, a POCKET PISTOL). Using that as an excuse to say its fine for a weapon of any size to be single stack is just nonsense. Also, most all of them are polymer, and almost all are either striker fired or double-action only hammer fired.

What are some examples of some semi-auto pistols that you wouldn't consider modern? If the vast majority of them fit your definition, then its overly broad and needs to be refined. It's kinda like when foreigners say "all Americans are rich". Sure they might be able to point to average wages in their country that are a lot lower, but at the end of the day its still pretty clear that there's a financial difference between ourselves and someone like Bill Gates. Saying that all semi-autos are modern isn't anymore useful than saying than "All Americans are rich".
 
Are we discussing defining "modern weapons" or the Zastava PPZ and possible chamberings for it?


I'd like to apoligize for contributing to the thread drift.
 
You keep talking about newest product introductions, yet the Turks are flooding the market with new-model pistols that are steel-framed, double action hammer fired pistols with external safeties. And, lest you say that they are merely based on the CZ-75, all striker-fired poly pistols are based on the HK VP-70, which is even older than the 75.

And let me understand, a hammer-fired single action pistol with external safety and decocker and polymer grips with a single-stack magazine, decocker, and firing pin block is not modern, but a striker-fired single action pistol with external safety and polymer frame is? Or, perhaps, being hammer-fired is okay as long as it is double action, but single action auto pistols cannot possibly be considered modern? I note that the majority of 22lr pistols are single action.

Considering rifle-caliber pistols are popular and being introduced to the market, and since many are single-action striker-fired designs without an external slide release, and since they clearly follow your guide of being introduced to the market, then how does that affect the definition of modern?

And 1911's only bought for nostalgia? You mean to say 1911 shooters are just making their purchases because they harken back to a simpler time? I'm not sure they got the memo on that one.

Autos no longer modern? How about designs discarded and are no longer in production by anyone. Truly, the only thing that really differentiates modern from archaic designs is the mode of lock-up and those which lack a detachable magazine. Yet that clearly blurs because modern pistols use rotational-locking barrels from time to time, and while the Walther P38 is out of production, the Beretta-based derivatives are clearly not. The Steyr 1911 is not modern because it requires a charger to load it. The C96 for the same reason.

Modern autos are those built for general use by a population based on a multitude of specifications. The Zastava is clearly a modern pistol. 1911's are clearly modern because they are in general use by not only just civilians. After all, virtually all rifles used are single-action - that is hardly something I would call old-fashioned. The CZ-52 is no longer in production, but its features are surely as modern as any pistol that currently employs them. You see, don't forget that the CZ-52 also uses a firing pin drop safety and a decocker. Indeed, the only thing truly not "modern" about it is its awkward grip angle.

And it is certainly off-topic.
 
Or, perhaps, being hammer-fired is okay as long as it is double action, but single action auto pistols cannot possibly be considered modern?

He's trying to say Glocks/Clones and XDs/Clones are modern, only :D. Modern can meen "revolutionary" in a techonolgy sense, or it can mean "currently fashionable." Since there has been no ground-breaking firearms development in the last 100+ years (along the lines of the brass cartridge or box magazine) the term in this case definitely refers to the latter definition. That is to say, pistols are "modern" when they are near the top of the popularity scale, and become "outmoded" at some arbitrary threshold below that.

Whatever. The Boberg, Caracal, and Chiappa Rhino are "modern" in terms of innovation, but who really cares? :rolleyes:

Does anyone know if a 7.62x25 is actually in the works, or is that the fever dream of a mad Wiki-editor? By the way, a double-stack 7.62 will have an ungodly huge grip/magwell. People already complain about the CZ being too big to hold, I can't imagine their reaction when it's wider, too. The same real reason the Five-seveN isn't more viable in smaller platforms suited for its low recoil.

TCB
 
At a glance, I'm quite interested in it. A modern handgun chambered in 7.62 Tokarev is long overdue, especially with a magazine capacity, that's very accommodating. 20 rounds in a service sized handgun is an impressive feat, I mean I know that the FN Five-Seven has a 20 shot magazine, but the 7.62*25 is no minuscule cartridge, and a 30 caliber round. I'm interested to see how, or if it turns out, if it doesn't at least Zastava still makes the M57.
 
PPZ is Zastavas first polymer frame pistol..... waiting for it for almost 5 years :eek:


information from that wiki page was taken from CZ99.org
http://www.cz99.org/index.php?page=ppz


and rumors about 7.62x25mm started on mycity-military.com by "DVC virus"

The development is completed, in general, and pistol hes entered test phase. When it passes, technological process for mass production can begin. It is very interesting to shoot, unusually soft and has very little recoil.

http://www.mycity-military.com/Pesa...-i-oprema/Zastavini-pistolji_39.html#p1356744


......the weight of with the empty magazine is 650 grams (22.9 oz) which is very little for a double stack 45ACP. What is interesting is that this will probably be the first gun of modern construction in a somewhat forgotten caliber, very interesting for military use 7.62x25mm or good old TT round. 14 round .45 magazine can without any problems fit 20 rounds of 7.62x25.

http://www.mycity-military.com/Pesa...-i-oprema/Zastavini-pistolji_40.html#p1356843



22012013_005.jpg

glock like slide is only on test guns, production version will be more along these lines

114138_54396837_118557_443979434_vPtt7.jpg
 
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A hi capacity polymer Tokarev would be pretty awesome. What 7.62x25 ammo options are available currently? (Other than surplus).
Prototype pic from Wikipedia:
RASHOMON_Prototip.jpg

The PPZ appears to be intelligently designed pistol.
While I do not care for the cartridge there are at least two major manufacturers offering 7,62x25 PPU and S&B.
 
PPZ.

If and when Zastave produce’s the PPZ it will most likely look like a beefy CZ99 with a supported barrel and a polymer frame. I don’t think the grip will be as big as a 10mm glock but it definitely is going to be full size I’ve been feeding my m57, with 32 cal 100 gr, HP bullets and they work great for me. The 105gr 32 cal lead moly coated bullets that I have been using leave ¼”divets in my 1”thick steel targets. With a supported barrel, I could work up some pretty hot loads in this caliber that would still be controllable for a double taps. If Zastave produce’s this pistol in 7.62x25, I will buy one, if not I will pick up a glock 20 instead. :)
 
WWB 7.62 Tok is S&B with a Winnie headstamp and different labeling on the box.

To equate police/military service pistols with modern is foolish.
Police/military service pistols a provided by the lowest bidder.

And, polymer is not a material. It's a property. It's also a buzzword Gaston Glock uses for his plastic framed pistols, because it works better for marketing (gullibility
of consumers).
Plastic is also a property.
Glass filled polyamide is the most correct terminoligy.
 
The 9x19mm round is 1.169" long
The 45acp round is 1.275" long
The 7.62x25mm round is 1.34" long

It is a terrible sacrifice when a grip has to be made to accommodate the 45acp length.

Very seldom are pistols made long enough in the grip to fit a magazine that will fit a Tokarev round.

1) The Star Super B has a grip long enough for the 9mm Largo.
2) The CZ52 is long enough.
3) The Tokarev is long enough.
4) The C-96 Mauser is long enough.
5) The LAR Grizzly 45 Win mag is long enough.

None of these are still in production.

What does it all mean?
It ain't gonna fit.

I noted that at the wiki page.
 
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I shoot a Zastava M57A tokarev, one of the new commercial models. The length of the 7.62x25 round makes for a comfortable grip.
Looking at the frame with grips...in a polymer frame, with no grips, the same thickness could accommodate a double stack mag without a problem.
I like the 7.62x25 a lot. So flat shooting at 100yds, and great penetration.
 
The 9x19mm round is 1.169" long
The 45acp round is 1.275" long
The 7.62x25mm round is 1.34" long

It is a terrible sacrifice when a grip has to be made to accommodate the 45acp length.

Very seldom are pistols made long enough in the grip to fit a magazine that will fit a Tokarev round.

1) The Star Super B has a grip long enough for the 9mm Largo.
2) The CZ52 is long enough.
3) The Tokarev is long enough.
4) The C-96 Mauser is long enough.
5) The LAR Grizzly 45 Win mag is long enough.

Must have some trouble loading a Mauser if that's what you think. :)

None of these are still in production.

Wasn't because of the grip.
 
@Clark I'm a little skeptical too however i think that the biggest selling point of PPZ would be 7.62x25mm, since there are no other modern handgun's in that caliber.

Zastava is probably best suited for this job, since they have a lot of experience with Tokarev's (in production since mid-fifties) but also very good cooperation with PPU..


grip diameter should not be a problem, for example 5.7x28mm is longer than 7.62x25mm but grip is still ergonomics

stfnh_021107c.jpg
(From left to right) 5.56, 5.7x28mm SS190, 9×19, .224 BOZ, 7.62x25mm Sabot, 7.62x25mm, 5.45x18mm Soviet, 5.7x28mm SS190, 5.7x28mm SS195 LF.


None of these are still in production.

Zastava still produces a wide selection of Tokarev based firearms (our 1911 :D)
 
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5.7x28mm is longer than 7.62x25mm but grip is still ergonomics
Nah, haters still complain the gun is too big :D. My man-paws find it comfortable, though. The CZ is a bit of a soap-bar, but it too would be more comfortable if it were a tad wider.

Mainly, the CZ would be more comfortable with a non-slapping trigger :D. 7.62tok has great potential; it's nearly like a 327mag. While the 327 isn't much of a commercial success, it has ardent fans, and no one claims it doesn't do what it's supposed to. I can't see why Tok isn't the same :confused:

At least some of the rounds' great length can be attributed to those super-long round nose bullets it uses. Some modern hollowpoints and denser powder-loads would probably bring the length back to 45ACP range. Scale the Tok bullet profile up to 9mm and see how much longer the Parabellum in that photo becomes.

TCB
 
Oh my. Link?

(Oh and that .224 BOZ is cute) :D


Zastava's new site (work in progress)
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en


Zastava M57 and M57A (7.62mm)
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/pistol-m57

Zastava M70A and M70AA (9mm)
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/pistol-m70a

Zastava M70 (7.65mm)
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/pistol-m70

Zastava M88 and M88A (9mm)
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/pistol-m88



there were also Zastava P45 (.45 ACP), Zastava P97 (.45 ACP) and Zastava Z10 (M93) 10mm AUTO
http://www.mycity-military.com/Pesa...ja-i-oprema/Zastavini-pistolji_4.html#p902935


custom shop
M88 Lux
pistol_m88_lux_1.jpg

M88 Exclusive
m88_exclusive.jpg



Century Arms imports a large selection of Zastava's pistols and rifles including M57A, M70AA and M88A
http://www.centuryarms.com/
 
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