Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Zastava PPZ 7.62x25mm

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Brin, Apr 19, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    5,499
    Location:
    Arkansas
    I'm going to go with a governmental definition of modern. "To be defined as modern a handgun may have no more than two of these archaic features 1: manual safety, 2: grip safety, 3: hammer fired, 4: capacity under 10, 5: all metal construction, 6: wooden grips."
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
  2. Ash

    Ash Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    5,358
    Location:
    Anywhere but here
    Market? Seems to me the market is just fine with hammers, safeties, grips, single-action, single stacks.

    Or, am I wrong that the 1911 and SIG 220, plus most pocket pistols, fit that description?

    By your definition, nothing is modern if it isn't plastic striker-fired.
     
  3. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    5,499
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Hard to argue that the 1911 is modern. Not that my post was exactly serious.
     
  4. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,570
    Location:
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Where do you keep getting the striker fired only thing? In each and every one of my posts I've clearly stated that both DA/SA and striker fired guns are fine to be considered modern. Single action hammer fired - not so much. Aside from the 1911 variants and very limited production of the Hi-Power, new production single action guns are almost non-existent.

    Yes the 1911 is still around, but its fueled largely out of nostalgia. Look at the issued duty weapons amongst military and law enforcement, and the 1911 is so rare that its not even worth mentioning. Its still around, but aside from flat out copies of the 1911 many of the design features of that gun have been abandoned in new designs. Does that make it a bad gun? No, but it does make it a niche product, and most certainly not modern.

    Even the pocket pistols that you bring up - yes, as a category they are largely single stack but this thread wasn't started about a pocket pistol - it was started about a duty sized pistol. Pocket pistols are single stack specifically to get an advantage in carry size (ie, a POCKET PISTOL). Using that as an excuse to say its fine for a weapon of any size to be single stack is just nonsense. Also, most all of them are polymer, and almost all are either striker fired or double-action only hammer fired.

    What are some examples of some semi-auto pistols that you wouldn't consider modern? If the vast majority of them fit your definition, then its overly broad and needs to be refined. It's kinda like when foreigners say "all Americans are rich". Sure they might be able to point to average wages in their country that are a lot lower, but at the end of the day its still pretty clear that there's a financial difference between ourselves and someone like Bill Gates. Saying that all semi-autos are modern isn't anymore useful than saying than "All Americans are rich".
     
  5. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    5,961
    Location:
    Near Camp Perry
    Are we discussing defining "modern weapons" or the Zastava PPZ and possible chamberings for it?


    I'd like to apoligize for contributing to the thread drift.
     
  6. Ash

    Ash Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    5,358
    Location:
    Anywhere but here
    You keep talking about newest product introductions, yet the Turks are flooding the market with new-model pistols that are steel-framed, double action hammer fired pistols with external safeties. And, lest you say that they are merely based on the CZ-75, all striker-fired poly pistols are based on the HK VP-70, which is even older than the 75.

    And let me understand, a hammer-fired single action pistol with external safety and decocker and polymer grips with a single-stack magazine, decocker, and firing pin block is not modern, but a striker-fired single action pistol with external safety and polymer frame is? Or, perhaps, being hammer-fired is okay as long as it is double action, but single action auto pistols cannot possibly be considered modern? I note that the majority of 22lr pistols are single action.

    Considering rifle-caliber pistols are popular and being introduced to the market, and since many are single-action striker-fired designs without an external slide release, and since they clearly follow your guide of being introduced to the market, then how does that affect the definition of modern?

    And 1911's only bought for nostalgia? You mean to say 1911 shooters are just making their purchases because they harken back to a simpler time? I'm not sure they got the memo on that one.

    Autos no longer modern? How about designs discarded and are no longer in production by anyone. Truly, the only thing that really differentiates modern from archaic designs is the mode of lock-up and those which lack a detachable magazine. Yet that clearly blurs because modern pistols use rotational-locking barrels from time to time, and while the Walther P38 is out of production, the Beretta-based derivatives are clearly not. The Steyr 1911 is not modern because it requires a charger to load it. The C96 for the same reason.

    Modern autos are those built for general use by a population based on a multitude of specifications. The Zastava is clearly a modern pistol. 1911's are clearly modern because they are in general use by not only just civilians. After all, virtually all rifles used are single-action - that is hardly something I would call old-fashioned. The CZ-52 is no longer in production, but its features are surely as modern as any pistol that currently employs them. You see, don't forget that the CZ-52 also uses a firing pin drop safety and a decocker. Indeed, the only thing truly not "modern" about it is its awkward grip angle.

    And it is certainly off-topic.
     
  7. barnbwt

    barnbwt Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2011
    Messages:
    7,056
    He's trying to say Glocks/Clones and XDs/Clones are modern, only :D. Modern can meen "revolutionary" in a techonolgy sense, or it can mean "currently fashionable." Since there has been no ground-breaking firearms development in the last 100+ years (along the lines of the brass cartridge or box magazine) the term in this case definitely refers to the latter definition. That is to say, pistols are "modern" when they are near the top of the popularity scale, and become "outmoded" at some arbitrary threshold below that.

    Whatever. The Boberg, Caracal, and Chiappa Rhino are "modern" in terms of innovation, but who really cares? :rolleyes:

    Does anyone know if a 7.62x25 is actually in the works, or is that the fever dream of a mad Wiki-editor? By the way, a double-stack 7.62 will have an ungodly huge grip/magwell. People already complain about the CZ being too big to hold, I can't imagine their reaction when it's wider, too. The same real reason the Five-seveN isn't more viable in smaller platforms suited for its low recoil.

    TCB
     
  8. whetrock

    whetrock Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    397
    Location:
    Tupelo,Oklahoma
    At a glance, I'm quite interested in it. A modern handgun chambered in 7.62 Tokarev is long overdue, especially with a magazine capacity, that's very accommodating. 20 rounds in a service sized handgun is an impressive feat, I mean I know that the FN Five-Seven has a 20 shot magazine, but the 7.62*25 is no minuscule cartridge, and a 30 caliber round. I'm interested to see how, or if it turns out, if it doesn't at least Zastava still makes the M57.
     
  9. Zastava

    Zastava Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2013
    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Belgrade, Serbia
    PPZ is Zastavas first polymer frame pistol..... waiting for it for almost 5 years :eek:


    information from that wiki page was taken from CZ99.org
    http://www.cz99.org/index.php?page=ppz


    and rumors about 7.62x25mm started on mycity-military.com by "DVC virus"

    http://www.mycity-military.com/Pesa...-i-oprema/Zastavini-pistolji_39.html#p1356744


    http://www.mycity-military.com/Pesa...-i-oprema/Zastavini-pistolji_40.html#p1356843



    22012013_005.jpg

    glock like slide is only on test guns, production version will be more along these lines

    114138_54396837_118557_443979434_vPtt7.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2013
  10. PabloJ

    PabloJ Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,128
    The PPZ appears to be intelligently designed pistol.
    While I do not care for the cartridge there are at least two major manufacturers offering 7,62x25 PPU and S&B.
     
  11. Twmaster

    Twmaster Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,074
    Location:
    Dallas, Republic of Texas
    Don't forget Winchester offers 7.62 TOK ammo in their white box line.
     
  12. bdb benzino

    bdb benzino Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2009
    Messages:
    815
    Location:
    Willamette Valley, OR
    I have had a few Zastava pistols and all of them were reliable and accurate. I will definitely be interested in this one too!
     
  13. PabloJ

    PabloJ Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,128
    The WBW 9x18 I used in my PM was made in Czech Republic by S&B. I suspect the same holds true for the 7.62x25.
     
  14. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2009
    Messages:
    5,068
    I'm interested in it as well. It would be nice to see a 5.7x28 version as well.
     
  15. Twmaster

    Twmaster Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,074
    Location:
    Dallas, Republic of Texas
    I would not be surprised if that was so. S&B makes good ammo.
     
  16. Brin

    Brin Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    160
    Location:
    Oregon.
    PPZ.

    If and when Zastave produce’s the PPZ it will most likely look like a beefy CZ99 with a supported barrel and a polymer frame. I don’t think the grip will be as big as a 10mm glock but it definitely is going to be full size I’ve been feeding my m57, with 32 cal 100 gr, HP bullets and they work great for me. The 105gr 32 cal lead moly coated bullets that I have been using leave ¼”divets in my 1”thick steel targets. With a supported barrel, I could work up some pretty hot loads in this caliber that would still be controllable for a double taps. If Zastave produce’s this pistol in 7.62x25, I will buy one, if not I will pick up a glock 20 instead. :)
     
  17. Janos Dracwlya

    Janos Dracwlya Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    456
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I'm interested; I'd like to see one.
     
  18. Jaymo

    Jaymo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,530
    WWB 7.62 Tok is S&B with a Winnie headstamp and different labeling on the box.

    To equate police/military service pistols with modern is foolish.
    Police/military service pistols a provided by the lowest bidder.

    And, polymer is not a material. It's a property. It's also a buzzword Gaston Glock uses for his plastic framed pistols, because it works better for marketing (gullibility
    of consumers).
    Plastic is also a property.
    Glass filled polyamide is the most correct terminoligy.
     
  19. Clark

    Clark Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    4,343
    Location:
    Where I5 meets the rain forest
    The 9x19mm round is 1.169" long
    The 45acp round is 1.275" long
    The 7.62x25mm round is 1.34" long

    It is a terrible sacrifice when a grip has to be made to accommodate the 45acp length.

    Very seldom are pistols made long enough in the grip to fit a magazine that will fit a Tokarev round.

    1) The Star Super B has a grip long enough for the 9mm Largo.
    2) The CZ52 is long enough.
    3) The Tokarev is long enough.
    4) The C-96 Mauser is long enough.
    5) The LAR Grizzly 45 Win mag is long enough.

    None of these are still in production.

    What does it all mean?
    It ain't gonna fit.

    I noted that at the wiki page.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2013
  20. amd6547

    amd6547 Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,774
    Location:
    North Coast of OHIO
    I shoot a Zastava M57A tokarev, one of the new commercial models. The length of the 7.62x25 round makes for a comfortable grip.
    Looking at the frame with grips...in a polymer frame, with no grips, the same thickness could accommodate a double stack mag without a problem.
    I like the 7.62x25 a lot. So flat shooting at 100yds, and great penetration.
     
  21. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2009
    Messages:
    5,068
    Must have some trouble loading a Mauser if that's what you think. :)

    Wasn't because of the grip.
     
  22. Zastava

    Zastava Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2013
    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Belgrade, Serbia
    @Clark I'm a little skeptical too however i think that the biggest selling point of PPZ would be 7.62x25mm, since there are no other modern handgun's in that caliber.

    Zastava is probably best suited for this job, since they have a lot of experience with Tokarev's (in production since mid-fifties) but also very good cooperation with PPU..


    grip diameter should not be a problem, for example 5.7x28mm is longer than 7.62x25mm but grip is still ergonomics

    stfnh_021107c.jpg
    (From left to right) 5.56, 5.7x28mm SS190, 9×19, .224 BOZ, 7.62x25mm Sabot, 7.62x25mm, 5.45x18mm Soviet, 5.7x28mm SS190, 5.7x28mm SS195 LF.


    Zastava still produces a wide selection of Tokarev based firearms (our 1911 :D)
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2013
  23. Twmaster

    Twmaster Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,074
    Location:
    Dallas, Republic of Texas
    Oh my. Link?

    (Oh and that .224 BOZ is cute) :D
     
  24. barnbwt

    barnbwt Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2011
    Messages:
    7,056
    Nah, haters still complain the gun is too big :D. My man-paws find it comfortable, though. The CZ is a bit of a soap-bar, but it too would be more comfortable if it were a tad wider.

    Mainly, the CZ would be more comfortable with a non-slapping trigger :D. 7.62tok has great potential; it's nearly like a 327mag. While the 327 isn't much of a commercial success, it has ardent fans, and no one claims it doesn't do what it's supposed to. I can't see why Tok isn't the same :confused:

    At least some of the rounds' great length can be attributed to those super-long round nose bullets it uses. Some modern hollowpoints and denser powder-loads would probably bring the length back to 45ACP range. Scale the Tok bullet profile up to 9mm and see how much longer the Parabellum in that photo becomes.

    TCB
     
  25. Zastava

    Zastava Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2013
    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Belgrade, Serbia

    Zastava's new site (work in progress)
    http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en


    Zastava M57 and M57A (7.62mm)
    http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/pistol-m57

    Zastava M70A and M70AA (9mm)
    http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/pistol-m70a

    Zastava M70 (7.65mm)
    http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/pistol-m70

    Zastava M88 and M88A (9mm)
    http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/pistol-m88



    there were also Zastava P45 (.45 ACP), Zastava P97 (.45 ACP) and Zastava Z10 (M93) 10mm AUTO
    http://www.mycity-military.com/Pesa...ja-i-oprema/Zastavini-pistolji_4.html#p902935


    custom shop
    M88 Lux
    pistol_m88_lux_1.jpg

    M88 Exclusive
    m88_exclusive.jpg



    Century Arms imports a large selection of Zastava's pistols and rifles including M57A, M70AA and M88A
    http://www.centuryarms.com/
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page