FBI looking at 9x19mm sidearms

[jimbo555]

I've been thinking of a 40 because of ammo availability. Always have 40 at my walmart. Back to the op, s&w and ruger could compete also.

 

[usp9]

HK P30 and P30CM maybe?
http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/products/military/pistols/p30/p30cm/overview.html

 

[NOMI WASP]

Simply using factory reloaded ammo with cheap cast lead bullets would save more. They practice with full field ready jhp service ammo. No real reason for that, none. imho.

This is true, I seen the Alaskia State Trooper vs Canadian gun shoot and they were all using Ranger T JHP. That stuffs over $1 a round if you can even find it.

The government has had long standing contracts for 9mm. When Federal got the new 9mm contract over Winchester, HST all but disappeared from LGS's.

I wish they would keep those crappy 40 cals and leave our beloved 9mm alone.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

And the winner is...



And the other winner is...

 

[fastbolt]

Anybody think the development of new striker-fired plastic pistol models by HK & SIG are coincidences?

I suspect Glock, SIG, S&W and HK (and maybe Beretta?) are going to be looking at this contract as something desirable.

As far as the specs listing the type of training guns? Why not? Obviously, the agency has determined their established training needs are best met with the types of specialized training equipment they've become accustomed to using ... just in 9mm, instead of .40 S&W. Why not make it part of their proposal? Why would it be hard for any of the major gun companies to create such training guns?

The agency is already about halfway through a previously established 1 yr w/option for 4 yr IDIQ 9mm ammo contract (not just one ammo company), and a new request for new 9mm ammo has been rumored as going to occur in 2015.

The usual training considerations (including disparate impact considerations) and maintenance/support considerations (less wear & tear on 9mm guns than ones chambered in .40 S&W) have all been voiced.

Guess we'll see what comes to it. Not an edge-of-your-seat sort of thing, though.

Just another gun/caliber/ammo equipment selection for one of the fed agencies. There's an ebb & flow to these things over time.

 

[Bobson]

You do understand that best value doesn't mean the cheapest price? When done correctly, there are separate evaluations for the price and technical portions of the bid.

The cost evaluators never get to see the technical portion, and the technical evaluators never get to see the price portion.

If the bid criteria is the best technical answer, then the best value is the bid that has the highest technical score, and not necessarily the lowest price.

At what point did I even suggest that the best value is at the lowest price? In what way does the graph indicate that? As I clearly and literally pointed out, cost is merely a factor in the determination of value. And this doesn't just apply to firearms, it applies to every type of product in existence. The nature of manufacturing requires that initially, cost increases significantly while quality remains fairly low. Then quality begins to increase greatly while cost remains somewhat stagnant. This is the point at which you get the highest level of quality per dollar invested.

If I'm wrong, then so are an overwhelming majority of enormously successful global corporations in every area of business. If I (we) am/are right, the FBI would be wise to ignore offerings from Hk and SIG, not to mention most of the companies producing a more expensive firearm.

 

[BSA1]

My SIG is over twice the quality and worksmanship of a Glock at less than double the price. Some things are just worth spending more money on...like a firearm that I may need someday to my life.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Safety. You get a lot less AD's going into the gunowners leg.

I have never met an FBI agent who has shot him/herself in the leg with a Glock. Now that I think about it, I've never met an FBI agent.

 

[usp9]

I have never met an FBI agent who has shot him/herself in the leg with a Glock.

I know one that shot himself in the foot. Glocks weren't carried then though.

 

[Digvideo]

First they couldn't handle 10mm, then .40 S &W apparently. 9mm? When in doubt, buy .45 ACP

 

[Deaf Smith]

I suggest reading the non fiction books; Cold Zero, Donnie Broscoe, My FBI, No Heroes.
Cold Zero & No Heroes detail the selection, missions & weapons of the elite HRT(hostage rescue team). The FBI set up the HRT to deal with high profile counter terrorist ops & high risk warrants/arrests/investigations.
My FBI details the long career of Louis Freeh who worked as a undercover agent & later served as Director of the FBI. Donnie Broscoe was the alias of FBI special agent John Pistone. He worked UC against several organized crime networks.
Most UCs are "under" for 6mo to 18mo total, Pistone did it for about five years continuously.

The FBI does a lot. They have several divisions & field offices. A lot of it is office work & reports but they also make arrests & do raids.

Depends on the FBI division. The HURT team is not real big and there are alot more accountants than commandos.

I can see the HURT teams using whatever they want, and the regular field agents Glock 19. That would allow them to use the same holsters, pouches, etc... and their training would mesh perfectly with what they used to have (Glock 23!)

Deaf

 

[Blue Brick]

This old fart says that the FBI should have stayed with the S&W model 13 revolver loaded with .38 special FBI loads.

This......

 

[Quiet]

The fbi sure goes through enough firearms and calibers since the 1986 shootout.

Since 1980...

Standard issue for FBI agents...
1980 = .357Magnum S&W Model 13 FBI (3")
1991 = 10x25mm S&W Model 1076
1993 = 9x19mm SIG P-226 or SIG P-228 (agent choice)
1997 = .40S&W Glock 22 or 23 (agent choice)
2010 = .40S&W Glock 23

Standard issue for FBI SWAT...
1980 = 9x19mm S&W Model 459
1988 = 9x19mm SIG P-226
1998 = .45ACP Springfield Armory Bureau Model

Standard issue for FBI HRT...
1983 = 9x19mm Novak Custom Browning High Power
1995 = .45ACP Les Baer Custom Para-Ordnance P-13.45 SRP
1996 = 9x19mm Novak Custom Browning High Power (re-issue of the old ones from the 1980s due to relaibility issues with the P-13.45 SRP)
1998 = .45ACP Springfield Armory Bureau Model

Personally owned firearms...
Firearms Training Unit must examine and approve/authorize it, in order to carry on or off duty.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post #38.....

That is a detailed list of what the FBI uses/used.
I add that to my knowledge, the HRT also used Hi Power 9x19mm sidearms with custom work by noted pistolsmith; Karl Sokal of VT's Chestnut Mountain Sports. I read years ago that each HRT member was issued 02 custom Hi Powers & the use of extended 20rd 9mm mags was common.
I too, heard & read the FBI(DoJ) cut the Les Baer .45acp pistols because he couldn't meet the strict requirements & purchase order deadlines.
From what I know, the FBI has no problems with the S-A .45acp pistols. They've been in use for about 15 years.

The NRA printed magazine; American Rifleman had a great article on the sidearms & weapons of the FBI. It came out around 2011/2012 or so if you want to read it.
As noted in other topics, the FBI has a fairly loose SOP about weapons because of a class action lawsuit in the early 2000s. Many new female agents & applicants could not use the bigger pistols or shotguns so the DoJ had to modify some training standards.

 

[Girodin]

My SIG is over twice the quality and worksmanship of a Glock at less than double the price. Some things are just worth spending more money on...like a firearm that I may need someday to my life.

Funny, I've never once considered carrying one of my sigs over my glocks. And even my old West German guns (that have much better "workmanship" than much of what has come out of Exter in recent years. In fairness glock quality hit a pretty serious bump in the rode too.) really wont do anything on a practical level that my glocks wont. The sigs do have shorter service lives though. I also think it would be pretty damn hard to argue that any of the sigs are better built than various HKs. The fact is any number of guns are up to the task if the shooter is. According to guys like LAV and Ken Hackathorn, the G19 is pretty popular among elite SOF guys. I dare say that 1) they could have a sig if they wanted one and 2) they are much much much much more likely to fire a shot in anger than you are. I'm not saying you are wrong to choose the sig, but rather pointing out that it is far from given that the sig is per se a better choice or worth the extra money vis-a-vis various other options.

It is interesting to actually talk to guys who have experience training with various large agencies and hear their input on what guns tend to work well at the agency level. Remember the considerations of an agency that will be equipping lots of people with varying levels of skill and desire to hone their skills is different from individuals selecting guns they like and believe suit them. It is also interesting to get input from those same people who get to see a relatively large sample size of various models.

I think the VP9 is likely to prove a better out of the box striker fired gun than a Glock (The PPQ is too IMHO). That said, lots of very very serious users who can aquire whatever it is they like choose glocks. The fact is that competent shooters can do very good work with any number of modern pistols.

That said there would be a lot of advantage to the FBI to simply trading G22s at the end of their service life out for G17s. Even though there are guns I might personally prefer to the G17, if I were the one making the decision that is route I would go. The LEO world seems to have come full circle on their adoption of 40 S&W and there has been a fair amount of movement back to 9x19. The FBI going back would likely accelerate that trend significantly.

As an aside, the HRT guys are going to get and use what they want their wants and needs are really of little import to arming the rest of the bureau. Sort of like comparing various SOF guys to the broader military force they come from. Their wants, needs, and concerns are typically very different.

 

[george d dennis]

Quiet
Thanks for the run down on all the pistols. I knew there were many, But didnt know their makes and models.

 

[45_auto]

My SIG is over twice the quality and worksmanship of a Glock at less than double the price. Some things are just worth spending more money on...like a firearm that I may need someday to my life.

So why did you cheap out and stop with a Sig? Your life is worth less than $1,000? I put the value of my life up into at least the Wilson Combat or Korth price range. Either one is easily over 10 times the quality and worksmanship of a Sig at only 5 or 6 times the price.

 

[jmr40]

My SIG is over twice the quality and worksmanship of a Glock at less than double the price.

I have a Sig. Like it a lot, but it doesn't offer a single advantage, and several disadvantages over my Glocks. And for almost 2X the money.

 

[pendennis]

This old fart says that the FBI should have stayed with the S&W model 13 revolver loaded with .38 special FBI loads.

I would only disagree with the caliber selection. A 158gr JHP .357 Magnum round, out of the Model 13/65 with a 3" barrel, round butt, would certainly get the job done.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Federal ADs/NDs.....

Lee Paige(check spelling) was the infamous DEA agent who shot himself with a Glock 22 .40S&W. The bullet hit the side of his leg as he spoke to a group of young kids about guns.
Another video of a federal agent's ND was a ICE agent(it may have been a USMS investigator) who drew his Glock(unknown model/caliber). He was clearing it to put into storage while in a prisoner holding area. He discharges the pistol, drops it, then looks at it, , I guess he thought the pistol would jump up & run away.
I don't think the agent was wounded. It was more of a mistake than a accident.
A pilot in the FFDO(federal flight deck officer) program had a ND with a HK USP(LEM or DA only) .40S&W. He blamed the incident on the stupid DHS policy of constantly loading/unloading the USPs in the aircraft.
A FFDO member made a great Youtube clip explaining the problems of the program; the holsters, the gun cases, the SOPs, etc. I could see his point about how ADs or incidents could occur.

Cops have ADs/NDs all the time, not just with Glocks.

Rusty

 

[wally]

A 158gr JHP .357 Magnum round, out of the Model 13/65 with a 3" barrel, round butt, would certainly get the job done.

Don't think so, given how quickly they gave up on the 10mm because most couldn't handle it.

The Model 13 3" really was a sweet pistol, regret losing mine along with the first wife -- she really wanted it.

 

[tarosean]

The fbi sure goes through enough firearms and calibers since the 1986 shootout.
But i have to agree, They do alot.

Keep that money in the budget, plain and simple...

 

[Old Dog]

what do you really get from Hk and/or SIG that you don't get from Glock?

Accuracy, especially from the SIG.

 

[george burns]

The FBI is famous for overspending on every aspect of their budget "maybe because they really don't have one". They will spend millions to convict someone of a crime was minor, just to make a point, and keep their conviction rate up around 98%. It's no different with equipment, they should be sending their agents back every 6 months for refresher courses in hand to hand combat and shooting skills, instead of worrying so much about which caliber they want next.
I don't know how it Is now, but I shot against them in Fishkill about 20 years ago, and overall except for their instructors, they were average or below. It's not always the tool, if they trained these folks on a constant level, maybe they wouldn't always be looking for better equipment.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Really?.....

There are a few recent posts here about the FBI, $, budgets, etc.
I for one, disagree with the "they have all the $$$ & budgets in the world".
The FBI director said in early 2014, they'd need to stop the FBI Academy & training program due to a lack of $.
About 6/8 years ago, a journalist in the DC area wrote a detailed look at the Bureau too. He described how the FBI field offices had office computers so old & outdated, schools & charities wouldn't take them.
To my knowledge, the FBI no longer offers tours of the J Edgar Hoover HQ building either.
Many people go by Hollywood TV shows & movies about what they think the FBI is or what they do.

They aren't quite what some people may think or do what they assume.