FBI looking at 9x19mm sidearms

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They don't pay civilian prices for ammo. I know I'll break someone's heart, but the State of Alabama pays $292.00 for 1000 .40 HSTs.

Around here it seems many of the smaller jurisdictions will buy at these great prices and sell half of it for what they paid to gun show/ on-line ammo dealers who then price the boxes of 50 at 2x the price of retail boxes of 20. Everybody wins, sort of.
 
LE sales of contract ammunition?....

Can police officers or sworn LE sell ammunition purchased with public funds to a 3rd party(gun show vendor)?
:confused:
That seems a tad fishy.
If so, if the cops pocket the $$$ wouldn't that be fraud or in violation of public trust/contracting laws?
You can't purchase or procure items(ammunition) then sell it on the open market. The state AG or FBI/ATF would be on to that scam quickly. :uhoh:

The National Guards & armed forces have serious problems with inventory control/logistic security. Thefts, robbery & bribes/kickbacks occur more often than the DoD wants the public to know.
 
Yes they can, but they aren't "pocketing" anything. The agency has a budget. They buy the ammo out of it. They keep it in inventory and issue it out according to needs. When the officer in charge of it decides that its been kept for so long, he can sell it as surplus and buy fresh. (Amazingly enough, it tends to happen right at the end of the fiscal year.) Then the proceeds from that sale are put back in the ammo fund, or shifted to buy something else the agency needs. I know of one small agency that funded their first taser buys that way.

Its not like the Chief is shuffling it off to his beer fund
 
Its not like the Chief is shuffling it off to his beer fund


If the citizens who employ him wanted him to buy tasers, they would give him the funds to do so. Playing fast and loose with selling "surplus" procured deliberately over honestly projected needs is just... well.... dishonest.

Creative? Yes.

Honest? Uhh... no.



Willie

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can't they just use a 9mm barrel swapped for the 40 cal?

Why do they need to waste money on something so minor?

I am so glad i'm 60 instead of my 20's

be safe.
 
Is there a source for this claim? I never heard that more FBI special agents had accounting degrees than any other major. :confused:
...Doctors(MDs), Nurses(RNs), JD holders & other specialists get selected not just CPAs.
In 1965, the FBI came to our high school to discuss careers with the agency. At the time, they were looking for lawyers and accountants, so if you had aspirations for joining, you knew what you needed for a college major. They seldom recruited from any existing LE agencies. They wanted to get folks who had those degrees, and had finished their military obligation, so they could train them in the way of the FBI, and not have to tear them down and start all over.

When I graduated from college after junior college and the military, in 1976, they still liked accounting majors and lawyers. You didn't need to be a CPA, but the degrees in accounting and law still carried a lot of weight. I talked with the FBI about joining, but I already had a family started, and I would have had to take a pay cut.
 
Willie, that's weapons grade balonium and NOT what happened. If you really believe that, then you'll condemn selling of police trade in guns. This idea that an agency can't surplus old assets, and that every line item has to be approved by some nebulous civilian authority show great ignorance of the way agencies operate. There is nothing dishonest about it. Nothing is being stolen, or misused.
 
Most city, county, and state governments have laws on procurement laws which detail how assets, equipment, etc., can be purchased and disposed. And in many instances cities and other agencies, can "piggy back" their purchases onto a state contract with a supplier. It allows those smaller entities to save money on everything from guns, to ammo, to vehicles, etc. The purchase notifications, usually by law, even appear in local papers.

Once what the entity has purchased has completed its useful life, or has become obsolete, there are usually outlets for disposal of the property. There's nothing untoward about the process. "Civilians" buy used police cars and other surplus equipment all the time. And if the process allows a police department to sell at a gun show, that's quite all right. Now, if someone attempts to skirt those processes, and go into business for him-/herself, that's another matter. The various prosecutors, and AG's do a good business in prosecuting those crimes.

The problem arises, though, because local and state police agencies are picking up free-to-granted military equipment to equip SWAT teams, etc. It's just part of the trend in militarizing police departments.
 
When I was in Law school they came for lawyers, but seemed to cull only the ones who were also CPAs. Not always....They were in high demand for whatever reason.

Russellc
 
Listen to yourselves. What part of the OP is dedicated to FBI bashing, or LEO bashing?

Local Departments tend to replace their weapons on a five year basis around here. THAT is why so many guns look carried a lot, but shot a little. The local Sheriff's Department qualifies quarterly.

Who really cares if Glock, Sig, Beretta, Ruger, HK, or High Point gets the contract? Telling LEOs, no matter their position, that they should be issued .25 ACP weapons is typical only of abject idiocy. Remember, they are the ones who are REQUIRED to run toward the sound of a fight, not away like the average multi-gunned CCW holder.

Using the criterion mentioned for that useless comment would similarly lead to the fact that even the FBI is more likely to get into a gun fight than the average CCW holder. So, they could get by with .22 pistols, then? Or, using the logic expressed here, they simply don't NEED to be armed.

If shooting oneself in the foot is the purpose of the thread, we have achieved nirvana.
 
Public service employees: fraud/waste/abuse....

Strangely, a local media report making the same point I posted 2 days ago in this topic took place in my metro area....:rolleyes:....
A state university employee(employed about 12 years) with a university credit card(procurement/purchasing authority) got caught buying multiple items then selling them online on sites like Ebay.com . :eek:
The staff employee was charged & could be facing a long prison term.

As noted, there are legal & approved ways LE agencies or public service depts can sell items to the general public. Govdeals.com is a good example. :D
 
can't they just use a 9mm barrel swapped for the 40 cal?

Why do they need to waste money on something so minor?

I am so glad i'm 60 instead of my 20's

be safe.
9mm barrels in .40cal slides are notorious for not functioning properly, as the breechface is different. .40 to .357 yes, works great. .40 to 9mm, not so much.
 
Somewhere on the web I saw a story that the FBI was looking at 9mm projectiles of much less than usual weight at much higher velocities. Anybody hear any specifics on it?
 
Here's a better idea specify a caliber or caliber range say (9mm, 49 S&W, 45 ACP) When employed by the "Agency" Local, State, Federal etc. the agency will supply ammunition of said caliber for training and duty. The Agent is responsible for supplying their own Pistols and Magazines, Holsters and the maintenance there of. And save the tax Payers some money............ No reason to supply the weapons too. and No I don't buy into the argument of magazine interchangeability. Each officer should carry as many magazines for their weapon as they deem necessary to carry for the environment they are intending to enter that day. The "Agency could even arrange for special pricing on "Agency Approved" weapons if the officer/agent chose to purchase one of the approved brands. Obviously a tactical environment would dictate the need for additional magazines and ammunition to be carried by each individuals. Whereas a desk jockey could be just as well served carrying a 38/357 revolver and a couple reloads in speed strips/loaders or a compact 9mm like a Kahr PM9or Ruger LC9 and a couple of extra magazines, that they more than likely will never need.

When I first began my career in law enforcement that generally was the way it was, except we had to purchase our own duty ammo and the department supplied the training ammo; which in our case was 38 Spl and 9mm, and we could carry any 38/357 or 9mm that we desired to carry. If you chose to carry something other than the specified caliber you could do so, as long as you had the chiefs or your commanders approval. However you at time assumed all the cost associated including training ammunition and you had to qualify with the duty weapon you intended to carry.
IDK it saved the tax payers allot of money, and if that isn't acceptable to the individuals so employed then there are other jobs out there that they could find if that arraignment was unacceptable.
As a tax payer, I am sick and tired of the tax payers carrying the burdens of all these unnecessary governmental expenditures. I'm sure there are officers and agents who are unhappy with the weapons system they are forced to carry by some departmental bureaucrat or because of some arbitrary reason like "not all officers shoot the larger weapons well" (40 S&W 45 ACP, 10mm, 357 etc) due to recoil or grip size whatever, Magazine interoperability etc. It doesn't mean that all officers/agents need to be saddled with the same weapon or caliber.
 
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Willie, that's weapons grade balonium and NOT what happened. If you really believe that, then you'll condemn selling of police trade in guns. This idea that an agency can't surplus old assets, and that every line item has to be approved by some nebulous civilian authority show great ignorance of the way agencies operate. There is nothing dishonest about it. Nothing is being stolen, or misused.


If you say so.

But.... even though "surplus" is surplus...

Deliberately over-buying anything at law enforcement contract discount prices, only to then sell the "surplus" at a profit, even if that profit is returned to the agency, is both dishonest and illegal. It's a matter of the intent at the time of purchase, and if the *intent* is to squander a portion of a budget on things not planned for use, knowing that it is excess to needs, and then to later simply sell it off as "surplus" is called "wasting the taxpayers money" ab-initio when the initial purchase of unneeded qualtities is purchased.

It might be creative... it's also wrong.



"they aren't "pocketing" anything. The agency has a budget. They buy the ammo out of it."


The *honest* thing to do on behalf of the folks paying the bills (the taxpayers) is to only spend that *portion* of the budget needed to operate. Unused budget funds should be returned to the treasury and not used to buy things just for the sake of spending the funds before the next fiscal year starts. That's called fiduciary responsibility. Failure to excercise it is a breach of duty to those who are paying the bills, and being served by the department. It's called waste.


Not germane to the FBI discussion in any case.



Willie

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Willie, that's not what I said. You're reading things into what I posted. I siad that ammunition was bought and held for a prescribed period of time and then sold as surplus, generally at the end of the fiscal year. From that, you pole vaulted onto your high horse, making moral judgements that simply didn't fit the evidence, while also impugning the character of officers whom I doubt you've ever met.

Now, back to the actual thread...
 
I siad that ammunition was bought and held for a prescribed period of time and then sold as surplus, generally at the end of the fiscal year.



Now, to give credit to your words, you did say:

"for a prescribed period of time"


If that prescribed period of time is on the order of 10 years.... and then it's sold... yeah.... OK.... it's surplus. Use it as training ammunition. Have at it. If it's a year old ammo... well... see below.



But, this is what I see elsewhere and what I addressed:

1: One year old ammunition (heck, *five* year old ammunition) is not "surplus" in the sense of being "too old to use". There is no technical justification *in the world* to sell it.

2: Selling it and buying more is a waste of the taxpayers money if it's sold for a loss.

3: Buying in excess of need is misuse of a budget if it's deliberately purchased "just to spend the budget" (even if sold at a profit later).


Not "getting this" and defending it shows, to be frank, that waste is so normal in that culture that it's not even recognized as waste. And it's done every year by many agencies. And that's a real shame.



Not germane to the FBI in any case.... so this is my last comment on it.


Willie

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can't they just use a 9mm barrel swapped for the 40 cal?

For actual use, not really. 9mm barrel conversions work well on the range but the breech face is still the wrong size so its not wise to actually carry a gun with a 9mm conversion barrel.

Why do they need to waste money on something so minor?

With that I'll agree. Stick with .40. If I was buying new I personally see the 9mm as a better choice than .40, but it's not worth replacing existing guns over.

Pretty much the same situation as the Army with the Beretta. The M9 is one of my least favorite pistols but at the end of the day it's functional and goes bang pretty reliably. Not worth spending money to replace.
 
Willie, its rare that pole vaulting to conclusions and this much condescension combines. The ammunition in question is not sold for a loss. I never said that it was. For instance, on one of the older contracts, the cost for .40 HST was around $13.00\50. This was surplussed at $15 at, I believe, the 5 year mark. This is not waste. Your assumption that excessive ammunition is ordered is just that, you pole vaulting to another ill conceived conclusion.
 
I would say that the change to 9mm is two fold. First is cost of ammo and the ability to share ammo with other federal agencies like the DOD. Second is MANY of those non-LEO types that the FBI hires,(Techs, lawyers,MDs and such), have a difficult time qualifying with their duty weapons and have to be retrained way too much to keep those perishable skills up. So the powers-that-be probably feel that that quest will be easier with the 9mm than with a 40. Specialty teams like HRT will still carry their 1911s.
 
I have handled a lot of US Gov contracts in my life and have often seen things worded like this. Requesting specific specifications that they KNOW will exclude the majority of manufacturers and steer the contract to the one, or two, they want. I never did it for any firearms related items but handled a lot of consumables and durables. It wasn't unusual for their people to call me and tell me to quote an item that was unavailable from any other source. That way they could place the order quickly rather than waiting for a bunch of bids.
 
Post 96, "non LEO" type cops.....

I agree with the points of #96.
Many "working"(sworn) cops look at guns or sidearms as a burden or a hassle. :rolleyes:
I saw a crime scene in my metro area handled by a few detectives & CSI types a few years ago. The homicide investigators had suits & business wear. A few wore neck chains with sheriff stars. None wore sidearms or weapons. :uhoh:
If I were a group supervisor or chief deputy, Id mandate all sworn personnel wear badges and dept sidearms all the time on-duty. If the detectives don't like it they can go drive a ice-cream truck. :mad:
When I was a teen in the late 1980s, I saw a TV special about auto thefts. All the cops in the unit wore plain-clothes & street clothes. A cop at a desk, got up printed out some records/data then announced he was going to make a arrest.
He then opened a drawer & pulled out a dirty, worn out Sam Browne duty belt with a K frame S&W .38spl revolver in a Jay-Pee leather holster. :eek:
The auto theft cop put the belt on with his regular clothes & away he went.

It's strange to me how some people prepare or get organized while others just wing it & do the basics. That's not just in sworn LE or security but other fields too. :rolleyes:
 
HK designs and builds for contracts, no doubt this is at least partially the reason for the existence of the VP9.
 
The public tends to focus on the status of an organization and the sorting process that prevents the average guy from finding a job there. The result is that they appear to be a highly disciplined hard working bunch who face danger daily and survive. In general they can do that, but in reality "face danger daily and survive" is largely about eating an unhealthy breakfast and the morning commute.

Reality aside, the overblown public image then concentrates on the tools and selection process, especially among those who think the tools and selection of them amounts to being as good as a FBI agent. Hence, the rise of the internet commando, who has to own all the cool gear, but buys his clothing only from vendors who cater to those who couldn't even pass the physical.

Added to that a number of media churners who do exactly the same but at least hold the waistline and get out to shoot. All this makes the protocol look as if it's relevant for the daily CCW carrier - who isn't an LEO in duty uniform, won't likely be using a 5" barreled double stack double action, and by reason of sanity avoids running to the sound of gunfire.

Because of that many carry large duty autos because "the FBI does," but when the chips hit the fan, we hear of a Pennsylvania doctor using a .32 Seecamp at near contact distances stopping a distraught patient gone berserk.

It's no different than the continuing conversation held over in knife forums - "What's the best knife to carry?" and the answer most don't want to hear, "The one you have." That is because the question when asked in forums is "What icon of masculinity is the top rated because I'm trying to enhance my image?" Not, "What is the better tool to use?"

As long as men attempt to possess icons that they think will elevate their social status, they will keep trying to one-up each other, and the game plays on. Do FBI agents get in gunfights on a daily basis? No, as said, they do a lot of background and forensics. Not combat. Same for local LEO's and detectives, but there are those who carry two 1911's in shoulder holsters on a daily basis. When you can go Miami Vice on the job, some do, and it just ratchets up the showmanship another level.

In comparison, their European counterparts tended to use .32's, .380s, and 9mm's for decades, and some of those guns are small enough that our government considers them too evil and won't let them be imported. Obviously they aren't compelled to compensate as much in their social structure.

PS the normal rule is to practice with full power ammo. First, the contract price is pretty good on hundreds of thousands of rounds, second, you train the way you fight - not at a lower impact level that won't condition you to the reality. There's also the possibility of getting a full mag of training ammo in your pistol and then needing to use it on the street - with less than full results. So, just say no to training ammo, it's really a concept that civilians use to cut their costs pulling the trigger and poking holes in piles of dirt.

The Army pretty much gave up on .22 adapters for target practice, they are still too lethal for training. When your class room is a 360 degree two way range and you move while you shoot, then "training ammo" amounts to simunitions or lasers. Not puffball ammo shooting paper targets.

Wow. Post is right on! Bravo sir.
 
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