Should you ever admit you are carrying?
- Thread starter kkayser
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luzyfuerza
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OP, have you ever heard the expression "An armed society is a polite society?" If you have heard it, have you experienced the politeness that should go hand in hand with carrying a gun?
When I am armed, I do my very best to treat everyone around me with the utmost politeness. Generally, others respond with politeness when treated this way.
Police generally respond to politeness by being polite themselves. Clerks, salespeople, managers, and relatives also generally respond to politeness by being polite themselves.
I think that some elements of our society feel that being armed gives them the power to be more aggressive in their interactions with those around them (including the police), rather than imposing an obligation on them to behave more politely. The OP may have been thinking of those who believe that carrying a gun gives them the right to get in others' faces when he wrote:
When I am armed, I do my very best to treat everyone around me with the utmost politeness. Generally, others respond with politeness when treated this way.
Police generally respond to politeness by being polite themselves. Clerks, salespeople, managers, and relatives also generally respond to politeness by being polite themselves.
I think that some elements of our society feel that being armed gives them the power to be more aggressive in their interactions with those around them (including the police), rather than imposing an obligation on them to behave more politely. The OP may have been thinking of those who believe that carrying a gun gives them the right to get in others' faces when he wrote:
RetiredUSNChief
Member
That's a Heinlein quote, from "Beyond This Horizon". The full quote is:
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
Just sayin'...Robert Heinlein had a LOT of good books.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
Just sayin'...Robert Heinlein had a LOT of good books.
Predator55
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Kkayser, I wasn't aware you were in MN when the cop short that guy. Why didn't you come forward sooner and let everyone know what happened?
This is the problem with the whole black lives matter crowd, they jump to conclusions without giving the cop(s) due process. Mike brown, criminal and officer found to be not guilty of what they accused him of. Freddy grey, again, criminal with long arrest record and so far not one office found in the wrong. How about we wait til the facts come out and these offices have their day in court before we assume they are racists and murders.
This is the problem with the whole black lives matter crowd, they jump to conclusions without giving the cop(s) due process. Mike brown, criminal and officer found to be not guilty of what they accused him of. Freddy grey, again, criminal with long arrest record and so far not one office found in the wrong. How about we wait til the facts come out and these offices have their day in court before we assume they are racists and murders.
I have no first hand info. I was going mainly by statements of the governor who I assume had all available info. Two things seem to be established:
the victim informed the officer that he was carrying
the victim is dead.
Now a word about criminal convictions of LEO's. If I were in a jury pool, I would be sure to make statements during the jury selection that would exclude me from the jury. I would be VERY reluctant to vote to convict an LEO, no matter what the evidence. Call me chicken if you want.
My customers who Open Carry haven't exhibited aggressive or impolite demeanor, if anything it's the apparently unarmed customers who attempt to push their expectations of what they think we offer as services who are the aggressors. They tend to be the more uninformed about the relevant subject matter, too.
It's an auto parts store, they less they know the more they attempt bullying. Work retail and you learn this early on. It's a constant across the spectrum of stores.
So, in my anecdotal experience of one over years of working (I'm 63) I wouldn't say that the just because you have or display a gun that you are seen as the aggressor.
What I do see is that those who have no clue are more than willing to be. Now, in a party of five or six, out shopping, clubbing, or in a restaurant, are you willing to have THEM be the ones who offer YOUR firearm as a solution to their perception of the problem:
"YOU HAVE A GUN, WHY DON'T YOU DO SOMETHING?"
It's not about a cop stopping us in traffic, it's about how we'd like to approach a situation and being outed in the first seconds doesn't give you any advantage.
Just when is it a good thing to have someone around you point their finger and scream that you should open fire? Exaggerates the situation that may be ongoing, but I will certainly offer it as possible. You don't really need them ignorantly blurting it out and elevating a simple push and shove incident to lethal force, do you?
I leave it to others as whether or not an Open Carry gun owner would have the problem. This is about Concealed Carry - and it goes to concealed means concealed. We should only make it known if and when it's necessary. Telling one and all you carry can be easily done - just Open Carry. It becomes obvious.
Concealed means having it not obvious or known.
How many conceal carry and don't even let the spouse know if you are - or aren't? They aren't the one who took the classes and contemplate how to get out of situations with the least possible force needed. You are. You want to control that - not someone with no training, education, or skills to back it up.
I don't need them volunteering me to be Cop for the Minute. Sounds sketchy.
There's more to it than just telling a cop. If it's a traffic stop, deal with it according to your wishes, but cops aren't lethal confrontations and a speed ticket should be accepted with a smile and pleasantry. Do we need to add to his issues by stating "GUN" as your opening greeting? In MO he doesn't see it on the database and frankly if we are one of the GOOD GUYS he doesn't have any reason to worry over it. Why throw it in his face? The law in MO states no need to inform. Therefore there is NO NEED TO INFORM. It's only on request.
Thank you sir, I will take care of this at the courthouse as soon as possible.
For that matter, maybe we should quit trying to use the CCW as a get out of jail free card, eh? I see that offered as a reason. Are we trying to gain advantage where no privilege actually exists? I think so.
How High Road is that?
Keep your tail lights in operation, drive carefully, and don't be a reason to get stopped in the first place.
It's an auto parts store, they less they know the more they attempt bullying. Work retail and you learn this early on. It's a constant across the spectrum of stores.
So, in my anecdotal experience of one over years of working (I'm 63) I wouldn't say that the just because you have or display a gun that you are seen as the aggressor.
What I do see is that those who have no clue are more than willing to be. Now, in a party of five or six, out shopping, clubbing, or in a restaurant, are you willing to have THEM be the ones who offer YOUR firearm as a solution to their perception of the problem:
"YOU HAVE A GUN, WHY DON'T YOU DO SOMETHING?"
It's not about a cop stopping us in traffic, it's about how we'd like to approach a situation and being outed in the first seconds doesn't give you any advantage.
Just when is it a good thing to have someone around you point their finger and scream that you should open fire? Exaggerates the situation that may be ongoing, but I will certainly offer it as possible. You don't really need them ignorantly blurting it out and elevating a simple push and shove incident to lethal force, do you?
I leave it to others as whether or not an Open Carry gun owner would have the problem. This is about Concealed Carry - and it goes to concealed means concealed. We should only make it known if and when it's necessary. Telling one and all you carry can be easily done - just Open Carry. It becomes obvious.
Concealed means having it not obvious or known.
How many conceal carry and don't even let the spouse know if you are - or aren't? They aren't the one who took the classes and contemplate how to get out of situations with the least possible force needed. You are. You want to control that - not someone with no training, education, or skills to back it up.
I don't need them volunteering me to be Cop for the Minute. Sounds sketchy.
There's more to it than just telling a cop. If it's a traffic stop, deal with it according to your wishes, but cops aren't lethal confrontations and a speed ticket should be accepted with a smile and pleasantry. Do we need to add to his issues by stating "GUN" as your opening greeting? In MO he doesn't see it on the database and frankly if we are one of the GOOD GUYS he doesn't have any reason to worry over it. Why throw it in his face? The law in MO states no need to inform. Therefore there is NO NEED TO INFORM. It's only on request.
Thank you sir, I will take care of this at the courthouse as soon as possible.
For that matter, maybe we should quit trying to use the CCW as a get out of jail free card, eh? I see that offered as a reason. Are we trying to gain advantage where no privilege actually exists? I think so.
How High Road is that?
Keep your tail lights in operation, drive carefully, and don't be a reason to get stopped in the first place.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
It's an extension of the "good ol' boy" concept. Gimme a break because I'm a "good guy."
I have a co-worker who's brother used to be a cop. My pal keeps a "think blue line" sticker on the back of his work truck. One day when heading back from a job site in different vehicles, he thought I was driving too slow (I guess) and raced away at easily 70 mph on a country road. I watched a Deputy chase him down with lights flashing, and when he stopped, pull up behind him in the usual way, just to the point where that sticker would be clearly visible. As I was starting to (finally) catch up and come abreast, the Deputy killed the lights, pulled out and drove off. I could see my young pal laughing his butt off as he pulled out.
Same basic deal. Don't "hassle" me, I'm an insider, I'm one of you. Enforce the rules against other people who aren't "us."
Kind of sickening.
lol...what?
I have never heard of this happening. Can you list some examples for us please?
Interesting. The LEO I know just don't care about something like a thin blue line sticker on the vehicle, in large part because an awful lot of people have them, or something similar, simply because they think of it this way. It seems a lot of cops don't care for people donating to this or that to get a sticker, or just buying a sticker, and then thinking they can get away with stuff other people can't
(that's for other cops to get away with, not just the people who have a sticker, if it's another officer driving the car, they'll present ID when contacted)
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
To be more clear, my pal's brother was indeed a local officer at that time, and he knew enough people that he could have been recognized.
Point being, using your identity or credentials to get out of a rightful legal sanctuary is distasteful, whether it's the mayor's brother getting out of parking tickets or CCW holders expecting to be let off for speeding. It happens, but DON'T be proud of it.
Point being, using your identity or credentials to get out of a rightful legal sanctuary is distasteful, whether it's the mayor's brother getting out of parking tickets or CCW holders expecting to be let off for speeding. It happens, but DON'T be proud of it.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
I think many are still making mountains out of mole hills over the issue of inform or not inform.
If it's the law, then follow the law.
If it's not, then inform as you see fit based on your own assessment...just do so intelligently.
Whether the CWP can be considered a "get out of jail free" card is subjective. Certainly it's not for constitutional carry states. Regardless, having it on your person and displaying it when required is still what we call "the law" in whatever applicable jurisdiction.
But "get out of jail free card" to me means you were doing something wrong in the first place and this gets you out of trouble. Legally carrying concealed isn't doing anything wrong in the first place.
With respect to being in the jury selection process for a LEO trial...I'm not sure why anybody wouldn't be able to sit in judgement over a LEO as opposed to anybody else. However, I do accept recognizing one's personal bias and working to avoid being on a jury because of it.
If it's the law, then follow the law.
If it's not, then inform as you see fit based on your own assessment...just do so intelligently.
Whether the CWP can be considered a "get out of jail free" card is subjective. Certainly it's not for constitutional carry states. Regardless, having it on your person and displaying it when required is still what we call "the law" in whatever applicable jurisdiction.
But "get out of jail free card" to me means you were doing something wrong in the first place and this gets you out of trouble. Legally carrying concealed isn't doing anything wrong in the first place.
With respect to being in the jury selection process for a LEO trial...I'm not sure why anybody wouldn't be able to sit in judgement over a LEO as opposed to anybody else. However, I do accept recognizing one's personal bias and working to avoid being on a jury because of it.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Sorry, that might not have been clear. The "Get out of jail free card" idea stems from all the folks on gun forums who like to brag about how many speeding tickets, seat-belt tickets, and other similar stuff they've gotten off of with just a warning BECAUSE (they think, at least) of the fact that they showed their CCW license to the cop who'd pulled them over and he gave them a pass as a "good guy."
It's pretty common (you can even see it in this thread) for folks to brag about how many moving violations they've had with "no tickets" because the cops want to give them a wink and a nod over that carry permit.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Ah...got it!
There are cops who let people off moving violations just because they had a CWP? I wouldn't think so.
In my opinion, any time I've ever been let go with a warning or "have a nice day" was because the cop used his or her discretion based on what the violation was and the circumstances surrounding the times I had been pulled over.
Sounds to me like a lot of people are drawing unwarranted conclusions.
There are cops who let people off moving violations just because they had a CWP? I wouldn't think so.
In my opinion, any time I've ever been let go with a warning or "have a nice day" was because the cop used his or her discretion based on what the violation was and the circumstances surrounding the times I had been pulled over.
Sounds to me like a lot of people are drawing unwarranted conclusions.
Schwing
Member
I work for my county PD in I.T. Sometimes we have to deal with the video and audio files from their various devices. One of the funniest videos I have ever seen involved a deputy that pulled over another deputy who was off duty for speeding. The deputy who had been pulled over was pretty new and the officer who pulled him over didn't know him.
He used the "Hey buddy I work for the county PD too!" line and was met with "Good for you, here is your ticket".
I know it doesn't always work that way but I do know a lot of officers who uphold the law regardless if the offender is one of their own.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I certainly agree and hope that that's true.
However, I could easily pull two dozen posts up from threads where our members have claimed to experience that phenomenon ... including at least one above in this thread.
another pake
Member
"What's that you say?"
As has already been reported, here in Minnesota where Mr Castile was shot last week, we do not have a "duty to inform".
It has been reported that Mr Castile did in some fashion do just that.
On an MPR Program interview after this tragic incident, the guest, a licensed CCL instructor said that in his classes he always encourages his students to self report, even though they are not required to do so. The instructor identified himself as black and stated that most of his students were also black. He stated the reason for his advice as being the nature of the times in which we live.
So, if you do... Be very careful.
How you say what you say in the heat and confusion of the moment can be interpreted in differing ways. "I have a gun", might sound like a threat.
Sadly though stereotypes and bias do play a part
As has already been reported, here in Minnesota where Mr Castile was shot last week, we do not have a "duty to inform".
It has been reported that Mr Castile did in some fashion do just that.
On an MPR Program interview after this tragic incident, the guest, a licensed CCL instructor said that in his classes he always encourages his students to self report, even though they are not required to do so. The instructor identified himself as black and stated that most of his students were also black. He stated the reason for his advice as being the nature of the times in which we live.
So, if you do... Be very careful.
How you say what you say in the heat and confusion of the moment can be interpreted in differing ways. "I have a gun", might sound like a threat.
Sadly though stereotypes and bias do play a part
IMTHDUKE
Member
What States require that you notify of CC?
I drive mostly the Southeast States....can someone list the States that require you to notify an LEO that you are CC upon a traffic stop? That would be helpful to know.
I drive mostly the Southeast States....can someone list the States that require you to notify an LEO that you are CC upon a traffic stop? That would be helpful to know.
Red Wind
Member
Alaska,Arizona,Arkansas,Louisiana,Maine,Michigan.Nebraska,North Carolina,Ohio,Oklahoma,South Carolina and Texas.
See www.handgunlaw.us for special situations in Maine and Arizona.
See www.handgunlaw.us for special situations in Maine and Arizona.
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Good Ol' Boy
Member
You were doing so well, then you tacked on this:
That's one version of the story, but there are many others. Too soon to tell at this point.
IMO, you should tell the officer you're a licenced CCW, that you are carrying now and ask him how he'd like to proceed. Follow his directions carefully. Otherwise, you had better be carrying well concealed, because if you don't tell the officer and he sees the gun he'll have good reason to react in a manner you'd rather avoid.
IMTHDUKE
Member
Thanks...I don't drive those with exception of SC and TX.
Red Wind
Member
You're welcome. You may end up in Arkansas and Louisiana someday. As you know, they both border the great Lone Star State.
If so, you know the drill.
And I forgot Oklahoma. They border Texas too. You need to inform there.
It doesn't seem to happen often, but I recall running across at least one example of a situation where, during an armed robbery, a concealed carrier was outed by one of the persons with him who knew that he was armed and who was prompting him to shoot the robber.
I wish I could find the story to provide more details, but it's been quite awhile since I read it.
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