In Light of the Recent Shootings....

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The post below appears to be an attack on the argu-er and not the argument, IMO.

Is it, really? It was an attempt to answer silliness with silliness. BSA1 chose to try and make my points look weak by associating them with positions I did not take and arguments which did not follow. A bait and switch version of reductio ad absurdem. I jabbed back in a manner that pointed out that any logic in that tactic was broken.


But if it was a personal attack then I apologize wholeheartedly to BSA1, and all those reading.
 
I agree completely with you that long guns serve no purpose being kept in vehicles for self-defense which is why I researched mass shootings over the last three years.
I suspect that that's not really the case. You appear immune to the argument that I'm making, right up to the point where you've decided to attack my position by making it appear to be an anti-second Amendment one.

Which it patently is not.

All we are determining is what human lives and injuries are worth. Since long guns should not be kept in vehicles then human lives and injuries are less valuable than the value of the gun that is being stored in trunk. Since the value of long guns vary greatly we must use the lowest value of the gun when determining what the value of humans lives are.
This is tortured logic at the very best.

For this to be an exchange of human life versus rifle availability, you would have to establish that having a rifle in a vehicle means a life is saved. Or that there's a strong probability that a life would be. Or at least that there's a vague likelihood that a life would be saved.

So far, that has not been established.

Instead we are relying on the idea of having a rifle in a trunk as the equivalent of effective resistance to a violent situation. When the very best that we can show is that there are some instances, some place, sometime when a rifle could have possibly been accessed, and maybe have been used to stop a mass shooter. If only that had happened.

You are basically saying one human life is equivalent to the value of doing a thing that doesn't appear to have really any statistical chance of helping save a human life.

It just doesn't make any sense.
 
By you listing exceptions to when having a long gun in the vehicle you are undermining our position.

I'm sorry that looks like it's not actually a complete sentence. What did you mean to say?
 
Sam1911,

I agree completely with you that long guns serve no purpose being kept in vehicles for self-defense which is why I researched mass shootings over the last three years. All we are determining is what human lives and injuries are worth. Since long guns should not be kept in vehicles then human lives and injuries are less valuable than the value of the gun that is being stored in trunk. Since the value of long guns vary greatly we must use the lowest value of the gun when determining what the value of humans lives are.

Furthermore in none of the shootings I posted did a civilian use any type of firearm to stop the shooter. Therefore civilians that have guns serve no purpose and in the Thornton, Colorado shooting hampered the police investigation.

“The chaos of panicked people running out of the store, shoppers who pulled their own guns and multiple victims created a difficult situation for police and slowed their investigation.” Denver Post.

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/02/shoppers-pulled-weapons-walmart-shooting/

By you listing exceptions to when having a long gun in the vehicle you are undermining our position.

Since our position is the risk of the gun being stolen outweighs the possibility of it ever being used to stop a mass attack or shooting it also logically follows that since handguns are stolen (and lost) more often the long guns and used in other types of crimes they pose a greater danger.

As long guns are the weapon of choice for mass shooters the only logical way to reduce their use is to enact severe restrictions on who may own one, under what circumstances and the location and matter in which it is store. In some incidents the shooter killed family members and stole the guns from the house to use to carry out their attack.

England is excellent model. Guns are stored under lock and key at gun clubs. Low powered guns (.22) are only allowed to be kept in certain homes for the purpose of pest control. Applying these type of requirements will have the immediate and dramatic effect of reducing crimes committed with firearms. Can’t be a mass shooter if I can’t get a gun right?

Convincing the public to accept these very logical, reasonable facts and convincing them that it is not a violation of the 2nd Amendment is particularly difficult with the gun owners that cling to their guns or religion.

Considering your other posts, your recent ones are quite concerning.

In regards to the part I bolded,,, No one has said or implied anything remotely cost to that. Implying so is more insulting to yourself than Sam or anyone else.


It's just a pile of steamy horse poop.
 
Why chase the smallest possible end of the tail?

Because

...careful consideration of all possibilities can reduce risk, and...failing to do so can increase it.
(emphasis added).

Great value is often added by carefully studying the most improbable of scenarios. Even scenarios that appear to be "one-off". Been there. Done that. Got lots of T-shirts.
 
Since our position is the risk of the gun being stolen outweighs the possibility of it ever being used to stop a mass attack or shooting it also logically follows that since handguns are stolen (and lost) more often the long guns and used in other types of crimes they pose a greater danger.

As long guns are the weapon of choice for mass shooters the only logical way to reduce their use is to enact severe restrictions on who may own one, under what circumstances and the location and matter in which it is store. In some incidents the shooter killed family members and stole the guns from the house to use to carry out their attack.

England is excellent model. Guns are stored under lock and key at gun clubs. Low powered guns (.22) are only allowed to be kept in certain homes for the purpose of pest control. Applying these type of requirements will have the immediate and dramatic effect of reducing crimes committed with firearms. Can’t be a mass shooter if I can’t get a gun right?

Convincing the public to accept these very logical, reasonable facts and convincing them that it is not a violation of the 2nd Amendment is particularly difficult with the gun owners that cling to their guns or religion.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it appears that you're trying to blur the conversation about statistical odds, personal preparedness, and tactics with a backhanded shout out to a philosophical appeal based on our love of the Second Amendment.

I've already dealt with such apeals extensively earlier in the thread.

To refuse to acknowledge fact, and statistics, and reality, and logic, because you are afraid of what that might imply about practical applications for the Second Amendment would be very cowardly. Our 2nd Amendment rights do not exist because of some ability to respond to a mass shooter or a terrorist. Our 2nd Amendment rights have nothing to do with whether any US citizen ever shoots a terrorist, or stops a mass killer.

And thank goodness for that. If our 2nd Amendment rights were dependent upon day-to-day practicalities or statistics, when those rights would live and die based on whether or not Americans were actually being killed in large numbers.

Very fortunately for us, we can live in a generally peaceful society, largely secure from the most terrifying of threats and still stand up for our 2nd Amendment rights.

What a terrible world it would be if the reason we must be granted the right to carry or own firearms was because everyday we stepped out the door there was the likelihood we'd be murdered.

That's not the nature of our rights. That's not the world we live in. And I am most thankful for that.
 
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Because...

And I don't disagree with that. As I said, that's exactly what we've done here. Discuss, debate, evaluate the risks and the possibilities in as clear-eyed a manner as we can. Then decide if we should react to that thing or not. And that's just what your study team did when they decided not to act in the face of that particular calamitous possibility.
 
But if it was a personal attack then I apologize wholeheartedly to BSA1

I don’t feel like I have been insulted. In fact Sam’s argument convinced me to totally change my position.

You appear immune to the argument that I'm making, right up to the point where you've decided to attack my position by making it appear to be an anti-second Amendment one.

Not so. Our challenge is to convince gun owners why long guns should not be stored in the trunk of their vehicles to the danger they pose to the public if they are stolen. This can be accomplished through public education and enactment of strong laws prohibiting storage of long guns in vehicles. This is entirely in line with the laws in New Jersey which only allow long guns to be transport for only specific purposes with strict security measures to prevent it for being stolen from a vehicle. This is not anti-2A as the laws have been upheld in the Courts.

You are basically saying one human life is equivalent to the value of doing a thing that doesn't appear to have really any statistical chance of helping save a human life.

The core of our position is simply that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Theft of long guns for vehicles is a greater risk to the public than are mass shootings and terrorist attacks. The population of the United States is about 325 million. The total number of people killed in the United States from 2104 - to date in 2017 are only 181. I won’t pretend to be a math whiz so I don’t what percentage of the population that represents.

Accepting the loss of human lives in exchange for the greater needs of the many occur everyday in the medical profession. For example since 1990 397 people have died from receiving the measles (MMR) vaccination. In exchange for these unfortunate deaths measles was declared eliminated from the United States in 2000.

http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/Measles/measles-vaccine-injury-death.aspx

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/downloads/measlesdataandstatsslideset.pdf

Even if a incident occurs where a citizen uses a long gun that is being stored in their vehicle to stop a mass shooter / terrorist the risk to general public from it being stolen is still greater than whatever of lives that are saved.

It is no more complicated than that.
 
Sam1911, you have made some arguments that are spurious. First of all, mathematically and statistically speaking, there is a huge difference between zero and a number approaching zero. Also, there are other things that are so unlikely to die from, less than terrorist attacks or mass shooters, that we still do things to try to bring that number down even lower. For example, dying in a commercial airline crash (exclusive of terrorist attacks, since that's what we are comparing to) is much lower probability than almost anything else we do. Yet the FAA, airplane makers, airlines and passengers all continue to make it even lower. Commercial Nuclear power accidents have NEVER killed a single person in this country, and the best statistical analyses are that one won't happen in tens of thousands of years, yet the government, industry and workers continue to make them safer.

Finally, have you heard the commercials for investments that have the disclaimer about past performance being no guarantee of future performance? A simple doubling of frequency can make a very small number get very large very quickly.
 
If someone is looking to experience that "safe feeling" by changing their equipment, hopefully they've first considered whether their training & practice regimen, developed skillset and experiential knowledge base is also adequate, or might benefit from more attention.

Equipment is still just equipment, but "upgrading" and improving knowledge and skills can be of practical value regardless of equipment selected, or whatever may be at hand in some unexpected exigent situation.

People tend to look for comfort in talismans, though. Kind of like Touch stones, charms, religious charms and medals, rabbits' feet, etc.
Your post reminds me of a good video I saw just yesterday;
 
Don't be silly. Training and practice require a concerted effort, time, and expense. Being proficient means work. Upgrading gear just means fun shopping for new toys.

How many people in the thread, did you notice, stated that they are going to take defense classes (self defense, handgun defense, etc.) instead of, or in addition to, buying new guns?
I'm going back and forth right now on whether I'm going to go to another pistol course this year, or go back and get another TCCC class. Pistol class is a lot more fun and I do have a birthday soon that I want to get myself a gift for, but I don't think anyone will argue that the medical skills are far more likely to be useful.
 
I think you know where I stand on this.... that the recent events arent enough for me to change what I carry. And I do get your statistics.


Now let's look at it a little different using stats from the FBI link on page 8 that i posted for a 13 yr period of these types of events.


3.1% of the shootings (5 incidents) ended after armed individuals who were not law enforcement personnel exchanged gunfire with the shooters.


That's a pretty decent stat, imo.

(active shooter incidents of someone trying to kill people in public places which may or not result in being included int the defined mass killing catagory)
In this same vein, I came across this on Greg Ellifritz' blog;
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/new-rapid-mass-murder-research-from-ron-borsch
From the link;
"WHO HAS BEEN STOPPING THE ACTIVE KILLER, AND HOW?

Before investing in any theory or propaganda, enlightened administrators and trainers should exclusively examine only successful aborts. “Stopping the killing” only occurs in slightly over half of “Rapid Mass Murder”© incidents. Significant, documented, verifiable, and repeatable research has identified what strategies and tactics work in stopping the killing. In summary, they are:



1. Citizens, mostly unarmed, perform two thirds of all “Rapid Mass Murder”© aborts.

2. In citizen aborts, initiation by a single citizen stops the killing eight out of ten times.

3. Law enforcement performs one third of all “Rapid Mass Murder”© aborts.

4. In law enforcement aborts, initiation by a single officer stops the killing seven out of 10 times."

Many incidents are not reported as "active shooter" or "rapid mass murder" events because the killer gets stopped almost immediately by people on scene at the time of the attack, before more than 2 or 3 people are killed. Whether the people on site at the time are LE or civilian, armed or unarmed, the most important thing is that they immediately counter-attack the attacker.
 
In fact Sam’s argument convinced me to totally change my position.

Two possibilities:
1) You are lying. You are raising a false claim of adopting bunches of anti-gun positions, yourself, and then attempting to discredit me, and through me, my position, by appearing to latch onto me as though I support the unpalatable positions you're taking. This is too transparent to work well. Stop it. You look silly. And it isn't debating in good faith -- something we take a dim view of, here.

2) You actually have heard what I said, but don't comprehend that one can have principles and believe in rights, while still understanding truth and a skeptical, scientific way of viewing the events of our world. If so, and if you really have adopted all these discredited anti-gun ideas, then leave them out of this thread -- go start your own on those subjects -- because they aren't what we're discussing here.
 
In fact the presence of armed citizens hinders the Police investigation of identifying the attacker as occurred at the Walmart shooting in Thornton, Colorado on November 2, 2017.

I could not care less if my legally owned and carried gun that I may have produced in an effort to protect myself or others during a shooting when police ARE NOT PRESENT hinders any sort of investigation AFTER THE SHOOTER IS LONG GONE. My primary concern is my safety during a life or death situation, not whether or not some detective is slowed down by seeing me for a surveillance video and is forced to do his/her job to determine whether I am a good guy or bad guy.

FYI, being unarmed and present during such an event also hinders the police investigation as they still have to assess everyone who was present. So it is best to not even be present during a shooting so as not to hinder the police in any way.
 
Sam1911, you have made some arguments that are spurious.
Excuse me? "Spurious" means I'm being deceitful, fake or false. I assume you do not actually mean to accuse me of that.

First of all, mathematically and statistically speaking, there is a huge difference between zero and a number approaching zero.
:) That depends on your definition of "huge." (Maybe you really simply meant "important." Even the word, "significant" would be inapt because the concept of statistical significance DOES say that these small, tiny, very low likelihood events become not informative.)

When you consider how, or whether, to react to a possibility, you look at how likely that thing is to happen. Very, very, very few things in life have a TRULY zero probability of happening. If you drive past a tower crane set up in a city, you may be killed when it falls on you. (It happens. The videos of it happening are alarming.) The chance is not zero. But it is close to zero. You may think about it. You probably don't. You drive right on by because the odds are so low that you treat them as zero. If you go for a drive you may drive on a bridge, crash, go over the rails, and end up in a deep, rushing river. It happens. You may have a very real need for a life preserver. But you don't put one in the car. Why? Because the odds, though real, are close enough to zero that you treat them AS zero. I could name hundreds more, as could you, I'm sure.

Also, there are other things that are so unlikely to die from, less than terrorist attacks or mass shooters, that we still do things to try to bring that number down even lower. For example, dying in a commercial airline crash (exclusive of terrorist attacks, since that's what we are comparing to) is much lower probability than almost anything else we do. Yet the FAA, airplane makers, airlines and passengers all continue to make it even lower. Commercial Nuclear power accidents have NEVER killed a single person in this country, and the best statistical analyses are that one won't happen in tens of thousands of years, yet the government, industry and workers continue to make them safer.
Of course they do. That doesn't counter my points here, at all. For several reasons. Exactly how and why those industries continue to work to make things safer has a variety of reasons, not simply based on whether human life has been lost, which would be irrelevant to a discussion of a citizen's preparations for a mass shooter.

Second, the fact that those industries "still do things" to make their activities safe is not particularly similar to an argument that keeping a secondary handgun or a rifle in your vehicle DOES, or is likely to, make any person safer in the event of a mass shooting or terrorist attack. There are long lists of things those agencies and companies figure out to do which all contribute to the safety of their enterprises. They do the most important, useful, likely to be broadly effective ones first, and keep going down the list until they reach some point of diminishing returns where the money expended to do a thing isn't commensurate to the actual risk level they'd be countering. Member luzyfuerza posted a great example of just such a thing a couple pages back.

We can go back over the possible use cases for "truck gun/trunk gun" if you want, but I don't think this contention supports it.

Finally, have you heard the commercials for investments that have the disclaimer about past performance being no guarantee of future performance?
Of course. The biggest thing we have to go on is what has happened before. Statistics. We might predict -- or might theorize-- what could happen in the future, but reacting to what MIGHT happen in the future -- if it is to be very different from what has happened in the past -- is a totally different discussion. One that wouldn't have much of a statistical or scientific element since it is based so heavily on guessing, fears, and imagination. Prediction is a flawed affair. More often wrong than right. Nevertheless, we aren't really discussing what to do if the picture vastly changes in the future, but instead, what are we going to do in light of how things ARE.

A simple doubling of frequency can make a very small number get very large very quickly.
Not exactly so. As I've pointed out in a number of my posts in this thread, a simple doubling of the frequency of mass shootings or terrorist attack would make no statistical difference at all. In fact, I've said that if I'm off on my math (or the evil actors increase their efforts) by a factor of 10x, 100x, or even 1,000x, the practical likelihood of any of us being a victim of their attacks really doesn't increase. The numbers are just SOooooo small that doubling them doesn't make a practical difference.

I don't know what number you'd consider to be "very large" but let's say the rate of homicide in the US is such a "very large" number. (It's about 15,500 per year.) To specifically answer your assertion here, the rate of mass shootings would have to double, then double, then double again, then again, then again ... and keep on doubling until the rate had gone through ten doublings to hit that very large number.

I don't know what eventualities you're foreseeing, but there seems to be very little reason to expect the rate of any of these killings to double -- at all -- let alone for that doubled rate to double again, and then again...etc.
 
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Two possibilities:
1) You are lying. You are raising a false claim of adopting bunches of anti-gun positions, yourself, and then attempting to discredit me, and through me, my position, by appearing to latch onto me as though I support the unpalatable positions you're taking. This is too transparent to work well. Stop it. You look silly. And it isn't debating in good faith -- something we take a dim view of, here.

2) You actually have heard what I said, but don't comprehend that one can have principles and believe in rights, while still understanding truth and a skeptical, scientific way of viewing the events of our world. If so, and if you really have adopted all these discredited anti-gun ideas, then leave them out of this thread -- go start your own on those subjects -- because they aren't what we're discussing here.


With out a doubt, #1.

As I called out in post# 329, what he's now saying is a bunch of #2.

This is what a passive aggressive debater resorts to. ''''' Youre right, Sam, since guns get stolen by bad guys, we shouldnt have them in a trunk. Youre also right, Sam, a long gun is statistically unlikely to be used to stop a terrorist by civilians so they deserve no constitutional protection. You are SOOO right Sam that you have enlighten me that they are like the measles and should be eradicated like a medical epidemic for the greater good of the people even if a few hundred die in the process because.. well.. you said it best Sam, a human life is worth the same as the cheapest rifle. I'm just agreeing with what Sam said. """
 
I could not care less if my legally owned and carried gun ...

Let's not turn this thread into any of us trying to argue BSA1 out of anti-gun positions he really doesn't hold. While I'm sure he would like us to get the thread so deflected off of the subject, that's not going to fly.

I'm happy to discuss the subject at hand at very great lengths (obviously! :)) and I'd be very VERY happy to discuss where I'm factually, mathematically, or tactically mistaken. I don't want to base my conclusions or theories on errors.

But I'm not going to tilt at shadow windmills someone props up in an attempt to make my conclusions unpopular by painting me as an anti-gunner.
 
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I am not lying. I started out opposed to your position but as I read your points and counterpoints I realized that having a long gun stored in my vehicle for the purpose of self-defense is based largely on emotion, not facts.

You have pointed out several times that a long gun that was stored in a vehicle has never been used by a citizen (non-leo) to stop a mass killing or terrorist attack. Looking to challenge your claim I researched mass shooters that occurred in the U.S. over the three years. Not only did I discover you are correct but was very surprised that no type of firearm was never used by citizen. (Post 309).

I have done some further research and find that many thousands of firearms were stolen from vehicles every year.

https://www.thetrace.org/2016/09/stolen-guns-cars-trucks-us-atlanta/

Star Trek movie fans will recognize this Vulcan logic;

“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the view.”

(Of course Spock had to be saved so they could continue to make more movies.) lol

To have a factual argument we have to assign values to all of the things being considered. It is easy to assign the value of a firearm. Simply look at Blue Book, auction sites like Gun Broker, MSRP.

However assigning a set value to a human is nearly impossible. The trace minerals (gold, etc.) that are in the human body only add up to a few cents at most. Organ donations are a complex medical procedure that can only be done under certain circumstances by highly trained doctors so we cannot assign a fixed value to it.

The medical profession is based on specific fact based science with the goal of helping as many people as possible. I used the deaths that result for receiving the MMR vaccine to show that in the medical profession that it is an acceptable trade-off for achieving the goal of eliminating measles in the United States.

I am not saying that firearms do not have a important role in self-defense. What is happening on the regular bases are decisions on what firearms are best for the particular self-defense situation. In general in America open carrying a long gun in public is socially unacceptable. Handguns are almost always thought of as the best option. This topic started out showing there is strong disagreement on THR about what types of handguns are best. Many posters argue that a small pistol that fits in the pant pocket is sufficient. Others go so far as to argue that any caliber is sufficient with .22 rimfire and 25 Auto begin the most commonly mentioned.

I am not accusing you of being a “anti-gunner.” Many gun owners support restrictions on firearms such as magazine capacity limits or where a firearm may be carried. Just because they support what I view as a unreasonable restriction does not make them a “anti-gunner.”

*edited to remove off-topic comments.
 
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I am not accusing you of being a “anti-gunner.” Many gun owners support restrictions on firearms such as magazine capacity limits or where a firearm may be carried. Just because they support what I view as a unreasonable restriction does not make them a “anti-gunner.”

Many do. I do not. And you should well know that if you've read anything I've posted over the years.

This is not a debate about gun control or gun control laws. Any further explorations in that direction will be treated as off topic.

Don't put words in my mouth. Don't tell me what I "should" support. Don't insinuate that I DO support anything I do not.

Let this be the last time you step on to that path.
 
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Sam1911,

I humbly apologize for making you and any other THR members believe I was personally attacking you or insulting you. I certainly never felt that way even when you said I was lying.

Out of respect to your wishes and warning I will not comment further on this topic.
 
Your post reminds me of a good video I saw just yesterday;
....

Thanks.

I've mostly worked with LE as an instructor ... (only a few hundred private citizens over approx 10 years, and that was more for discussing knowledge of the laws and running qual sessions, than anything oriented toward teaching someone how to shoot, or what tactics to use, etc). That being the case, the cops with whom I've worked have run the usual range from guys/gals who disliked guns, were ambivalent about guns, or who LIKED them (sometimes naming them :scrutiny: ).

Bottom line? They all had to be able to use whatever weapons were issued, or which they might've chosen to buy for off-duty or as authorized personally-purchased weapons.

Sometimes the people who LOVED their guns could be the most difficult to help train, as they may have invested so much attention to their guns, as an object of the adoration and enjoyment, that they kind of neglected to develop their actual skills. Sometimes it was the people who only carried them out of a sense of duty and obligation who were able to do what they were taught, as taught, and weren't distracted by obsessing on makes, models, calibers , finishes, finger grooves (or the lack thereof), sight options, etc.

Holes appearing downrange, where intended, on the intended threat target (not the No-Shoot targets), accurately and quickly enough to meet the prevailing competency standards, and being able to do under a variety of conditions that introduced various difficulties, decision-making and multitasking.

The guys/gals who sometimes extolled some particular make/model/caliber of duty weapon over another? Hey, personal preference is all well and good, but consider whether or not you might be able to competently pick up and USE some other weapon, such as during the midst of some nasty chaotic situation, like if your own weapon suddenly becomes lost/damaged/inop/empty, and perhaps you might have to pick up and use another cop's (or citizen's?) weapon.

Is your skillset and functional familiarity really restricted to your own weapon? Got a "special trigger" that may mean you can't exert proper control over a "stock" trigger, especially under duress?

Are you carrying that "special" handgun because of how it makes you feel about it, or you?

I don't give people I help train the "answers". I expect them to discover them, and the reasons for them, for themselves.

When it comes down to it, if they can't look at their threat targets and see the wisdom of their answers for themselves, under a reasonably expected range of anticipated conditions that might occur, perhaps they may need to reconsider their thinking relative to both the "question" and the "answer", as they've been thinking about things.
 
I am not lying. I started out opposed to your position but as I read your points and counterpoints I realized that having a long gun stored in my vehicle for the purpose of self-defense is based largely on emotion, not facts.

You have pointed out several times that a long gun that was stored in a vehicle has never been used by a citizen (non-leo) to stop a mass killing or terrorist attack. Looking to challenge your claim I researched mass shooters that occurred in the U.S. over the three years. Not only did I discover you are correct but was very surprised that no type of firearm was never used by citizen. (Post 309).

{Snip}



That IS surprising.

Especially since it contradicts the FBI data I've posted a few times now in this very thread.

FBI
documented cases that show civilians using guns to stop the shooters 3.1% of the times spanning 13 yrs.

Sam even acknowledged that the stat showed fairly goods odds.



Sam is right in a lot of respects.... I don't see anything false in what he's saying. The odds say its highly unlikely to happen to you.

The flip side is that, it IS happening. Just like the lotto does with similar odds... nearly zero odds some might say.

And the FBI documented cases of civilians stopping the shooting spree with a gun 3.1% of the time. Thats more than off duty officers accruing to the data.

Rifles in trucks...? No data to support it but to each their own. There's always a 1st tome for everything.
 
The last few pages here have been an interesting read.
However, I'm afraid I must agree with lindybeige that we in the west clearly need to return to teaching rhetoric again.
Understanding logos, pathos, and ethos better would much improve our more tortured conversations.

Mind the above will likely scan as sophistry.
 
Sam1911 seemed to take umbrage with my calling his arguments "spurious" and he was correct that I used the wrong term. On reflection I should have called his arguments "ignorant". For someone who is using math and risk assessment / risk management to make his argument, he seems ignorant of those subjects.

Mathematically speaking, the relative increase in probabilities between zero and 1 in 17 million isn't just huge, it is infinite, which anyone who has taken basic algebra could tell you.

The point I was making on improving theoretical safety in the aviation and nuclear industries, is that your odds of dying on a flight is 1 in 29.4 million, your odds of dying from a commercial nuclear accident in the US are much less than that, as it has never happened. Yet the federal government will (and has) shut down reactors and grounded hundreds of planes with no regard to duration, expense or effectiveness of modifications (I guess the chemical industry is held to a lower standard) to improve the safety of already absurdly safe systems. We, as a society and individuals, treat different risks that have similar outcomes differently.

It is virtually impossible to estimate the impact of carrying a long gun in a vehicle on the probabilities of deaths and injuries due to mass shootings, until a significant number of people start doing it.

I consider any number of people dying needlessly to be a large number of deaths. How about you?
 
I consider any number of people dying needlessly to be a large number of deaths. How about you?
Yes...
And do we only count the dead? What about the wounded? What about the lives turned upside down due to one of those deaths.? Do they get a number assessed to them for the risk equation?
When I started this thread, my thought was that if I was going to carry a gun anyway....perhaps it should be something more substantial than my easily concealed mouse gun. Perhaps since I have assumed the responsibility of having a gun on me....maybe I should be more concerned with performance and less with concealment.
As far as the truck gun issue. Pages of this thread have hammered the idea. Do not forget that SOME states (mine) have only recently adopted carry laws. I have been carrying legally since my laws were enacted. I have been a shooting enthusiast for a very long time. Up until recently, keeping a firearm in my vehicle legally was as close to carrying as I could get. If you are going to keep a firearm in your vehicle, why not make it an effective one?? Like a rifle??
This is as close to an explanation as you will get from me. Old habits die hard.
If you don't like it then that is perfectly fine with me. No hard feelings on my part.
 
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