Pistol caliber carbine poll / semi-autos only

Which currently made semi-auto pistol caliber carbine would you want?

  • AR Type / Just Right Carbine / Aero Survival / etc.

    Votes: 78 21.6%

  • Beretta CX4 Storm

    Votes: 46 12.7%

  • CZ Skorpion EVO 3 S1

    Votes: 52 14.4%

  • Kel-Tec Sub 2000

    Votes: 30 8.3%

  • Kriss Vector CRB

    Votes: 15 4.2%

  • Ruger PC Carbine

    Votes: 142 39.3%

  • Sig MPX Carbine

    Votes: 32 8.9%

  • Tavor X95

    Votes: 13 3.6%

  • Uzi style rifle (such as RMUZ 09)

    Votes: 7 1.9%

  • Wilkinson Arms Linda

    Votes: 4 1.1%

  • Zenith Z-5 (H&K 5 derived carbine)

    Votes: 14 3.9%

  • Other

    Votes: 26 7.2%

  • Hi-Point

    Votes: 34 9.4%

  • Auto Ordnance Thompson

    Votes: 25 6.9%
  • Total voters
    361
  • Poll closed .
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I think the "AR Type" category is too broad. At a minimum, it conflates true AR types, such as CMMG Guard, CNC/BB/RMW with guns that only use AR pistol grips, handguards, and buffer tubes (if that). JRC and Aero Survival are like that -- have essentially nothing to do with AR, but can accept some parts. There are also hybrids like FRA CSA-45 that are basically AR lowers, but uppers are much too proprietary.

Personaly, I would get the Guard, but not JRC. I ended voting for "AR Type" in the poll as it is.

BTW, also missing are:
MasterPiece Defender - a re-imagined Ingram for our times - and no, it's not an Uzi
B&T carbines, both old and new (I forgot which one is which, and one may only come as a pistol actually)
Possibly you can count MechTechSys.com as well - not sure what your state laws are
(well, you do have "Other")

Thureon - kinda like JRC, so may fall into the "AR Type" category, about which I complained above.

I didn't realize that a civilian Uzi was still made. I thought Vector gave up on them.

P.S. Anyone heard what's going on with CSRW's SMG-45? They talked it up on shows, then suddenly took it back for "revisions", and not a peep since. The CMMG Guard happened while they were "revising" and stole a march on them. Now a true delayed blowback is not unique anymore, and well, almost a true AR versus an attempt to replace UMP/UMC. Still, I wish they made that thing.
 
someguy2800 said:
I recently got a highpoint 995 and got an ATI stock for it on sale for 50 bucks. I really like it.
Click to expand...
Ya, I'm getting my daughter one so she will give me back my Taurus CT9.....;)

BTW, I know its not in production, but that Taurus was a helluva good PCC if you stumble across a decent one. Its heavy, and the stock is a bit long, but very fun and accurate. Reliability has been 100% with the factory mag. I modded some Uzi 25 rounders with some success, but it took a lot of tinkering to get them to run right.
Then I discovered Colt 32 rounders are easily adapted and all was right with the world. Cheers!
 
I ended up building a 9mm AR, but I looked hard at the Uzi.

The Uzi has good collector value and is a historically interesting firearm. It's heavy but the balance of the action means you actually can shoot it with one hand (esp. as an SBR). Unlike a bunch of the modern recreations of open bolt guns (Mp-40 pistol, etc) these were engineered by the guy who invented the Uzi and used mostly the same component parts as the real deal. They were made in large numbers so spare parts, including magazines, are relatively easy to find.

The Marlin camp carbine is another I'd considered but collector prices have driven those out of practical consideration with few spare parts available (though the action is stone simple there's not a lot to break). Magazines were from the SW 59 series and easy to find.

I really liked the looks of the Linda, as Wilkinson was here to relaunch the brand. Barrel shroud and stick stock, it's an cool looking gun. It has not been launched as a pistol that could be braced, which would make it even more attractive. Proprietary magazines are expensive--and no 10 or 15 shot state compliance magazines are offered on their site.

If your intention is a fun gun.. it's a toss up. if you want to make a modern tactical carbine with rails to attach lights n lasers you are probably better off with an AR or a CZ..
 
I've never read where anyone weighed the Taurus CT9, but it sure seemed heavier than what they stated in their literature. I shouldered one in a gun shop and I thought "Why is this thing so HEAVY ?"
 
zaitcev said:
I think the "AR Type" category is too broad. At a minimum, it conflates true AR types, such as CMMG Guard, CNC/BB/RMW with guns that only use AR pistol grips, handguards, and buffer tubes (if that). JRC and Aero Survival are like that -- have essentially nothing to do with AR, but can accept some parts.
Click to expand...

Would you say that the JP Enterprises carbine was a "true" AR ? I think it had a slightly different magazine release, but it took Glock magazines. It got this good review and I was tempted by it:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/12/foghorn/gun-review-jp-enterprises-gmr-12-9mm-carbine/

I should say though that now that the new Ruger PC Carbine has come along, I pretty much know what my 9mm carbine is going to be, Unless I win the lottery and can afford an X95 - the Ruger is going to be my one and only 9mm carbine.
 
zaitcev said:
I think the "AR Type" category is too broad. At a minimum, it conflates true AR types, such as CMMG Guard, CNC/BB/RMW with guns that only use AR pistol grips, handguards, and buffer tubes (if that). JRC and Aero Survival are like that -- have essentially nothing to do with AR, but can accept some parts. There are also hybrids like FRA CSA-45 that are basically AR lowers, but uppers are much too proprietary.

Personaly, I would get the Guard, but not JRC. I ended voting for "AR Type" in the poll as it is.
Click to expand...

You're right, the AR Type category is broad. Partly due to limited poll space and partly due to me not knowing all the PCC makes out there.

You make good points, as always, and I appreciate the additional info in your post. :)
 
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Dr.Rob said:
I ended up building a 9mm AR, but I looked hard at the Uzi.

The Uzi has good collector value and is a historically interesting firearm. It's heavy but the balance of the action means you actually can shoot it with one hand (esp. as an SBR). Unlike a bunch of the modern recreations of open bolt guns (Mp-40 pistol, etc) these were engineered by the guy who invented the Uzi and used mostly the same component parts as the real deal. They were made in large numbers so spare parts, including magazines, are relatively easy to find.
Click to expand...

The heavy Uzi type sure is interesting. I was 15 in 1980, so an UZI type would fill a nostalgic hole in my safe. :cool:

Although, I do have to consider my needs for optics these days, that's for sure. :)
 
chicharrones said:
The heavy Uzi type sure is interesting. I was 15 in 1980, so an UZI type would fill a nostalgic hole in my safe. :cool:

Although, I do have to consider my needs for optics these days, that's for sure. :)
Click to expand...
I had one of the Norinco Uzis- looked super cool, shockingly accurate, parts did interchange with the IMI....buuuuutttt-
The semiautos need super hot ammo to cycle reliably. Not only are they closed bolt blowbacks, but there is also a hefty firing pin/cocking sping (which the full autos don't have) to overcome.
I tried a few things to get it to run with standard velocity rounds, but ultimately gave up. Very disappointed.
:(
 
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NIGHTLORD40K said:
I had one of the Norinco Uzis- looked super cool, parts did interchange with the IMI....buuuuutttt-
The semiautos need super hot ammo to cycle reliably. Not only are they closed bolt blowbacks, but there is also a hefty firing pin/cocking sping (which the full autos don't have) to overcome.
I tried a few things to get it to run with standard velocity rounds, but ultimately gave up. Very disappointed.
:(
Click to expand...

I wonder if the Vector or the one sold by Atlantic are sprung the same? Meaning, did they reduce the bolt spring strength a bit as the striker spring was added? I need to research that.
 
chicharrones said:
I wonder if the Vector or the one sold by Atlantic are sprung the same? Meaning, did they reduce the bolt spring strength a bit as the striker spring was added? I need to research that.
Click to expand...
Ya, I tried some hardware store coils, but could never get the spring rates right. Wolff sells standard and HEAVY springs....but no reduced power, lol.
I was always worried about durability too, given the mainspring is the only thing keeping the bolt closed.....:what:
 
I am blessed to have the Berretta CX4 Storm and the Keltec Sub2000. The KT is uber cool with the folding feature and shoots adequately but it actually beats me up in extended shooting(cheeking hard on that metal tube). The Berreta is so good, ergonomic and accurate that I would want another (yes the factory trigger is horrid but it is easily improved). My second choice is a Hi Point. They work and handle decently. I've shot a 9mm M1 carbine...ho hum. The Marlin Camp 9..nice. The Uzi-fun but ...yuck. Likewise the Mac 10.
 
Ticked other to represent for my pair of Mechtechs - 10mm & 460 Rowland. Course I'm interested in several others which will tick my 9mm button but you limited me to two so an x95 would be nice even as an unlikely expendature.
 
I used to have a Cx4 until I got out of .40 S&W and I loved it (the gun not the caliber). If I bought another it would be in 9mm. Currently the Ruger PC Carbine has my attention and I WILL be buying one. Runner up is the Hi Point in 10mm, but I'll wait to see if the Ruger is offered in 10mm first.
 
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The CX4 y'all mention is 3 lbs. lighter than the UZI plus the Beretta does have a cheek friendly stock.

As much as I hate the idea of plastic triggers and hammers, FN has the same thing in their PS90 and FS2000, if I remember correctly.
 
The Cx4 trigger never bothered me. Maybe I had a good one. The gun is fully ambidextrous though which was and continues to be seriously appealing to a lefty like myself. It's very compact, handy and accurate. The only serious flaw with it IMO is price.
 
chicharrones said:
The CX4 y'all mention is 3 lbs. lighter than the UZI plus the Beretta does have a cheek friendly stock.

As much as I hate the idea of plastic triggers and hammers, FN has the same thing in their PS90 and FS2000, if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...
The CX has a plastic HAMMER!?
If so, I'm out! Even if its like the poly-covered spring wire bits on the newer Model 92s- no way!
 
^ so does the Steyr AUG, and I think its service life is a pretty good testament to the durability of plastics.

Of course if its not your thing, its not your thing, just sayin.
 
I really wish we could have a conversation about PCC's without having to hear from the "why not carry a rifle" crowd.

I chose the Ruger and SIG because I already have a CZ pistol with folding brace. :)
IMG_0375b.jpg


C0untZer0 said:
Hardly anyone does gel tests from a carbine, maybe everyone just assumes that any SD ammo is going to perform awesomely from 16" barrel, but I'd like to see some tests.
Click to expand...
I can do that from the CZ's 8" barrel, if that's any help.
 
bds said:
At 50 yards, I get around 2" 10 shot groups and around 3" 10 shot groups at 100 yards (And these are reloads with mixed range brass known to cause flyers)
Click to expand...

4 moa is about normal for PCC's. My M1 carbine (still shoot it) and 357/77 would do that. I consider the M1 carbine to be a pistol cartridge like the 327 mag. Accuracy isn't the PCC's strong suit. Yes, they are more accurate than pistols but less accurate than rifles. The draw is the cheap ammo. For some the 4 moa will be good enough but after shooting a cheap 1 moa rifle some will be disappointed. I know I was. I sold my 357/77 for that reason. The cost of reloading .223 and .357 was about the same for me.

I also have a 200 yd range so a PCC just didn't fit my situation very well. For someone limited to a 50 yd range I'm sure a PCC will be a lot more fun than a pistol. It's a tweener. If I didn't have an M1 carbine I would probably buy one. I might buy one anyway.
 
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CraigC said:
I really wish we could have a conversation about PCC's without having to hear from the "why not carry a rifle" crowd.
Click to expand...

Well, it is in the rifle forum. Looks like rifle, sounds sorta like a rifle, shoots like a rifle, almost. I can see why people want to compare it to a rifle, or even a pistol for that matter.
 
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IIRC, whenever someone creates a thread about carbines in Revolver, Semi-auto or General forum, a moderator moves it to “Rifle Country”
 
If it's shoulder-fired and launches a single projectile from a metallic cartridge, it goes in the rifle forum.

This thread is not asking about the viability of PCC's. If you think PCC's are ridiculous, go shoot your .223 in the hallway and get back to us. A 9mm carbine is barely louder than a .22Mag rifle. Or better yet, just avoid the discussion altogether. We've ALL heard the arguments before and we don't agree so all it really does is clutter the thread with nonsense. Like this.
 
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