Hollow point round ball??

A soft lead ball does not need to be hollow pointed to expand. Dig one out of a deer and you will see what I mean. They flatten out just fine like they are.

What about an all lead hollow point bullet, loaded backward so the blast causes it to expand and engage the rifling better as well as increase overall pressure?

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Now you're talking about the already common Minnie Ball used in the Civil War. If you will get a copy of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook they have in flight photos of hollow base Minnie's coming out of the barrel showing how they expanded to fill the rifling and how with too heavy a powder charge some of the bases on the bullets were flared out.

Welcome to the forum. What BP guns do you own?

About all you'd do is ruin accuracy. If it wasn't loaded perfectly straight up and down it would have a awful wobble. The RB engages rifling just fine the way it is. If it's a patched RB, like in rifles or SS pistols, it's the patch that grabs the rifling. In a C&B revolver the soft lead ball will engage the rifling without any more help. That's why we use pure soft lead, not any hardening mixtures needed for higher velocities.

Interesting it’s only a round ball until it’s forced into the chambers, then it becomes more or less a “cylinder”?

The velocity and what it strikes determines expansion. There’s debate on what speed that is achieved at. I’ve been told around 1000 fps but had seen on some reputable lead bullet (molding of?) that stated 1200 fps. However some people have said they’ve achieved it a bit below 1000 fps.

As lead projectiles from handguns don’t always give expansion, and the permanent wound track from a ball is typically right around caliber size or just under I decided to make custom designs incorporating a very wide meplat as Mr Keith showed they’ll create a wider than caliber permanent wound, more so the faster they’re pushed.

A fellow on another forum had a custom mold given the hollow point treatment. These get deformed a bit by the ram so he used epoxy to create a hollow point pin on the ram. Interesting for sure.

Some people claim they’ve reamed the chambers to match or slightly exceed the bore diameter and see a difference in accuracy. Soft lead will obturate, usually enough to fill in the grooves (the Pietta Remington .31 Pocket may need a way over sized ball to do this it seems). I feel this likely detracts from the velocity and performance, but don’t have anything solid to back this up with. But it’s well known among match shooters that you always have a ~0.001” over sized lead bullet. No modern lead bullets come otherwise from what I’ve seen.

There have, indeed, been people who’ve loaded modern lead bullets backwards. I’ve done it myself and they worked fine at 15 yds. But it’s also easy for them to be loaded off kilter. Better to use a proper bullet. Some have created a debated base on lead bullets to do just that by resizing the base.

"Interesting it’s only a round ball until it’s forced into the chambers, then it becomes more or less a “cylinder”?"

Yep, geometers call that shape in two dimensions a stadium and in three dimensions a stadium in revolution (AKA a spherocylinder).

Loading conicals backward could create pockets of empty space above the powder that could lead to some real problems.


A discussion on the subject of hollowed round ball -

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,11534.msg196311.html#msg196311

More info, my round balls tend toward the hard side, scavenged lead, and a noticeable difference can often be felt between casting batches, I am only shooting paper so expansion is of no concern. Balls I've had to push out, no powder syndrome, appeared not only spherocylinder they also have a little raised dome made by the revolvers ram being slightly less concave than the balls convex surface. And of course there is the sprue, which doesn't always end up center front. Balls I've recovered from the dirt back stop, a source of salvaged lead, aren't damaged much unless they have hit a small stone in the dirt.
AS to the sprue, why centered front why not centered rear?

Because it's been found the shape of the rear makes a big difference in accuracy more than the shape of the front. It has to do with the air coming around the back. It should be uniform all the way around. At least, that's what I've read.

whughett said:

More info, my round balls tend toward the hard side, scavenged lead, and a noticeable difference can often be felt between casting batches, I am only shooting paper so expansion is of no concern. Balls I've had to push out, no powder syndrome, appeared not only spherocylinder they also have a little raised dome made by the revolvers ram being slightly less concave than the balls convex surface. And of course there is the sprue, which doesn't always end up center front. Balls I've recovered from the dirt back stop, a source of salvaged lead, aren't damaged much unless they have hit a small stone in the dirt.
AS to the sprue, why centered front why not centered rear?

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A lot easier to eyeball a sprue to center on top than bottom, that said; I've tested from the bench shooting with the sprue up, down and even on the side(not recommended, because of chance of gap) and found no difference in shot placement at 10 yds. For practical purposes, I set sprue up.

Ned Roberts of The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle wrote that one loads sprue up, and not to "whang" the bullet with the ramrod once it is seated on the powder, when discussing patched round ball. He was part of an elite group of men that would regularly be hitting targets such as 9" circles at 200 yards, etc.

LD

Dave,

Putting aside the "fully awake, know your target", the most important thing is always shot placement.

A 38spl wadcutter is more than enough if delivered to the right spot. The problem is only shot placement.

One of the most deadly rounds I've seen is a "flying ashtray", a wadcutter loaded upside down in the casing. It was shown to me by some "oldtimers" when I came on the job in 1980.

They moved slow, opened fast and worked.




Copied from :
http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...e/363527-full-wadcutters-38-sp-hd-rounds.html

A friend of mine, years ago. would handload what we called 'reverse base wadcutters (RBW)'. I usually carried a Chief's Special loaded with 2 RBW's and three standard hollow points. Never had to use it, Praise be.

The problem with hollow points is expansion velocity and cavity clogging. Unless I'm using a conversion cylinder, I only use solid bullets in muzzleloaders and percussion handguns. I would rather have a solid bullet that performs consistently than a hollow point that's the opposite.

If a round ball expands, use that. If a conical gives a better wound cavity, use that. My 1858 stopping load is a Lee conical bullet over 30 or 35 grains of Triple 7. Hits harder than standard .45 ACP hardball. Don't shoot that in a brass frame tho.

paul harm said:

Because it's been found the shape of the rear makes a big difference in accuracy more than the shape of the front. It has to do with the air coming around the back. It should be uniform all the way around. At least, that's what I've read.

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Well another interesting point, however all cast bullets have the sprue on the bottom. The cheaper Lee molds will leave a, less clean, sprue than the higher quality Lyman, RCBS or customs.
I’ll confess I don’t fuss with sprue placement when loading round balls. How it lands more or less is how it rams.

Jason313 said:

You have titillated my curiosity. I'm a novice so IDK but I have been led to believe than it is not possible to achieve modern handgun power out of a cap and ball revolver, aside from the walker perhaps, or some really tricked out and expensive custom jobs. Do you have readings or measurements or would you say based on feel/experience?

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When I used Triple 7, there was a subsonic crack, thus I now the round ball was going over 1000 fps. As for the Conical, I am guessing around 900 fps, which is more than the 830 that .45 ACP goes.

This guy is using a 12 inch barrel and .451 round ball with a 40 grain charge of Pyrodex, he's getting well over 1100 fps.



I was using an 8 inch barrel and I use .454 round balls because I feel they seal the chamber better and the increased size means a bit more pressure, which means more velocity.

It is possible to go over modern handguns when you use substitutes, Triple 7 especially. Pyrodex does it because it compresses so easily, I regularly will put 45 grains of Pyrodex P in my 1858 and a lubed wad, press that down really good, and the ball is still a bit away from the mouth of the chamber. Accurate too.

TTv2 said:

When I used Triple 7, there was a subsonic crack, thus I now the round ball was going over 1000 fps. As for the Conical, I am guessing around 900 fps, which is more than the 830 that .45 ACP goes.

This guy is using a 12 inch barrel and .451 round ball with a 40 grain charge of Pyrodex, he's getting well over 1100 fps.



I was using an 8 inch barrel and I use .454 round balls because I feel they seal the chamber better and the increased size means a bit more pressure, which means more velocity.

It is possible to go over modern handguns when you use substitutes, Triple 7 especially. Pyrodex does it because it compresses so easily, I regularly will put 45 grains of Pyrodex P in my 1858 and a lubed wad, press that down really good, and the ball is still a bit away from the mouth of the chamber. Accurate too.

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Actually Swiss and Olde Eynsford typically create more velocity with the same volume of powder in both handguns and rifles.

I use both 3F Triple 7 and 3F Olde E in my guns. If one looks around at the various chronographed results you can see that the few energetic powders in these .44/.45 cal revolvers show that one can achieve standard (350-425 ft/lbs) performance from a NMA or 1860 Army, and more from the ROA.

The numbers I’ve seen are a bit more conservative. Maybe my numbers are higher than what I estimate compared to similar loads posted online.

Jason313 said:

This is good info, I appreciate it, a lot. Due to making some bad choices in my late teens, I picked up a couple drug possession felonies in 1994-95, so if I want to protect my family and myself from bad guys and criminals (I mean the real ones, not petty drug offenders), i have to go the BP route.

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Understandable. If that's the motivation, I would steer you in the direction of a conversion cylinder for the 1858 so you can shoot .45 Colt. MidwayUSA occasionally runs sales on them, but for your birthday they'll give you a discount on a single order. That's how I got mine and I don't regret the $200 I spent.

The deal with that is you can only use it in a steel frame, not brass frame (don't even bother with a brass frame, pay the extra money for a steel frame), bullets can only be lead, and the bolt stop (that's the piece that sticks up and locks the cylinder in place) will need to be modified. Best factory ammo for use in a converted revolver is Federal 225 lead semi-wadcutter hollow point. MidwayUSA sells it:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...in-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-box-of-20

That's if you don't reload ammo. If you do, the best bullet I've found that isn't a hollow point and is lead is from Mattsbullets.com:
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=317

I bought some, haven't tried them yet, but they should hit hard and do more damage than the typical .45 Colt cowboy ammo.

It took me a couple months to find all this out and this is the best setup for self defense I can come up with that doesn't require a NICS check or violate federal law. If you can't buy ammo, then you're stuck with percussion. To that I would say make sure the inside of the cylinder is completely dry, fire a cap in each cylinder to dry them out, then load powder and ball/bullet. Idk how long a loaded and capped cylinder can sit and still be functional when it's needed, but it's better than a bat and a flashlight.

TTv2 said:

Understandable. If that's the motivation, I would steer you in the direction of a conversion cylinder for the 1858 so you can shoot .45 Colt. MidwayUSA occasionally runs sales on them, but for your birthday they'll give you a discount on a single order. That's how I got mine and I don't regret the $200 I spent.

The deal with that is you can only use it in a steel frame, not brass frame (don't even bother with a brass frame, pay the extra money for a steel frame), bullets can only be lead, and the bolt stop (that's the piece that sticks up and locks the cylinder in place) will need to be modified. Best factory ammo for use in a converted revolver is Federal 225 lead semi-wadcutter hollow point. MidwayUSA sells it:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...in-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-box-of-20

That's if you don't reload ammo. If you do, the best bullet I've found that isn't a hollow point and is lead is from Mattsbullets.com:
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=317

I bought some, haven't tried them yet, but they should hit hard and do more damage than the typical .45 Colt cowboy ammo.

It took me a couple months to find all this out and this is the best setup for self defense I can come up with that doesn't require a NICS check or violate federal law. If you can't buy ammo, then you're stuck with percussion. To that I would say make sure the inside of the cylinder is completely dry, fire a cap in each cylinder to dry them out, then load powder and ball/bullet. Idk how long a loaded and capped cylinder can sit and still be functional when it's needed, but it's better than a bat and a flashlight.

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A conversion cylinder would make it fall under modern firearms and he’d be arrested for felon with a firearm.

rodwha said:

A conversion cylinder would make it fall under modern firearms and he’d be arrested for felon with a firearm.

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I thought that only applied to shipping purposes? Still, unless he has a PO dropping by his house every week, nobody will know about it.

TTv2 said:

I thought that only applied to shipping purposes? Still, unless he has a PO dropping by his house every week, nobody will know about it.

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Likely true, but the day he uses it to protect himself it would become an issue.

Regardless as he seems to have changed direction, and with a family the repercussions would be even greater, especially being a felony I’d assume. It’s just not worth the risk in my opinion.