All other factors excluded, is .380 ACP the best pocket semi auto caliber?

I carry a 380 quite a bit in the summer because I can slip it in my pocket. I think it's much better than being unarmed which is frequently the alternative. I work in an office with a dress code Monday to Friday and that definitely impacts my ability to carry a larger gun a lot of the time. I carry XTP’s in mine.

Most today will say 9mm Parabellum Uber Alles, because you can get a darn small, darn light, high capacity, light recoiling, or maybe a few of these attributes together, pistol, in a caliber that arguably performs notably better than .380, with more affordable practice ammo and more variety of SD ammo, and the guns will, in general, be only a little bit bigger than their .380 equivalents. I would have stuck to .380 for recoil/controllability, but I did shoot a friend’s Sig P365, and I must say... what a gun! I see why people really like the small 9mms now, for CCW.

That said...

.380 is great. Realistically probably good enough (if any handgun is) for self-defense, with good self-defense ammo. The pistols are smaller than 9mm or larger caliber guns. An LCP or P3AT is highly concealable and (IMO) not bad to shoot. It’s the sweet spot in compromises, but it’s neither as powerful as bigger rounds, nor as fun to shoot as bigger guns. It’s about as small as reasonably possible, though.

.32 is nice to shoot in most guns and arguably fine for self defense, too. The problem is, the guns chambered for it are mostly old-fashioned, not very high-cap for their size, and larger than they need to be, so they don’t bring a lot to the table. The KelTec P32 is the exception. The Beretta 3032 is pretty but has a bad reputation for cracking slides in normal use and is painful to shoot. The Colt 1903 is a dream to shoot, ok to carry, but it’s not drop safe, and definitely leaves you feeling like you could do a little better, with only 8+1, in a pistol that heavy. The Beretta 81 is great, just wish it were steel, but we’re getting into too chunky for ccw territory.

.32naa is a non-starter for me because the NAA pistol is (IMO) ugly. And there’s not much in the way of options or industry support.

.32 short/long/h&r mag/federal mag are good cartridges, and an LCRx in .327 would be an interesting option, carried with some type of .32 h&r mag defensive ammo. Might be better ballistics than .32acp, depending on the implementation. I have no practical experience with this though.

.25acp guns are tiny and you could do far worse. They suffer from the same issue though... antiquated designs that may or may not be safe with a round in the chamber, sometimes questionable reliability, sights too small to actually use, low capacity for size in most cases, and expensive ammo that’s pretty marginal for stopping.

.22 guns have cheap ammo, low recoil, and you could theoretically put a lot of reasonably aimed shots in a bad guy very quickly. They suffer from sometimes poor reliability and the fact that .22 isn’t a great stopper. IMO the NAA mini revolvers solve the reliability issue. Still not great speed or accuracy or capacity, but they allow you to have a gun when nothing else is concealable.

Well if this is a ballistics question then 100% yes. Gimme the .380. I see absolutely no mathematically reason to go with something under .380 if .380 is the largest and hardest hitting round available to choose.

The only reason I would consider a .25 or .32 would be because the gun was significantly smaller or I couldn't stand the recoil of the .380. I guess that last one could be tied to a question of ballistics but thats more of a subjective perception thing and really doesn't have to do with performance.

IMHO, chasing ballistics is the rabbit hole that talks you into justifying carrying a Glock 20 stuffed in your shorts pocket instead of an LCP because "it's not that much bigger" and a 10mm hits harder than a .380. Ballistic performance takes a back seat when it comes to pocket guns. You give up "adequate" penetration for a gun that you always have on your person. You may lack "stopping power" but it have something that may turn the odds in your favor. I have to be squarely in the 9mm or above guns when ballistics starts to be the main factor.

TTv2 said:

I was also intending for this to not be a discussion on what guns are currently available because if THEORETICALLY you had a choice of whatever pocket sized .22, .25 ACP/NAA, or .32 ACP/NAA chambered pistols, would .380 still be better than those options?

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Okay so with that stated differently and me understanding your meaning better (might have gotten distracted by the other comments) I'll add to my comment. It really comes to the size you are trying to. I really wish we could get some locked breach whatever pistols in the micro class and I've been wanting to try a 32 NAA but as you may guess I can't find one for rent. In a limitless world I'd take the 32 ACP and give it the same treatment we did to the 32 H&R to get the 327. Lengthen it a bit for safety so it can't chamber in other guns but bump up that pressure to get some decent velocity out of it and make it rimless to prevent any rimlock issues. Put that in DA/SA pistol the size of a LCP and I'd be a very happy camper.

TTv2 said:

Okay, a few people seem to have skipped over the first sentence in my OP where I said "By factors I mean ammo and gun price and/or availability."

My intention was to eliminate everything to do regarding guns and ammo and focus solely on the ballistics of pocket pistols under 9mm. I was also intending for this to not be a discussion on what guns are currently available because if THEORETICALLY you had a choice of whatever pocket sized .22, .25 ACP/NAA, or .32 ACP/NAA chambered pistols, would .380 still be better than those options?

Sorry, I'm not an attorney and clearly have poor skill at asking questions to get specific answers. Guess I'll cross that occupation of my list for what I want to be when I grow up.

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The problem is, each caliber has its own engineering challenges which kind of dictate the guns that are available, which are part and parcel of the choice. Also, .380 is highly barrel-length sensitive, like most of these other calibers. It goes from a great option in a longer-barreled pistol like a Beretta 1935, to an ok-with-boutique-rounds option in an LCP.

Theoretically we want something that hits like 9mm, conceals like .25, is as easy to shoot as a steel-framed .32, and has the capacity of a double stack full size pistol. Ballistically, .380 IS top of the heap in “pocket guns,” with the possible exception of .327 Fed, or maybe some yet-to-be built pocket pistol in .30 Tokarev or 5.7, with yet-to-be-developed short barrel self defense ammo. But you can always argue that 7 rounds of concealable .32 beats 6 rounds of hard-to-hit-with .380, or whatever.

Maybe you’re a virtuoso with your own very-reliable Beretta Jetfire, and feel very confident in getting headshots with 9 rounds of .25 auto. The guns force compromises, and everyone has to decide for themselves where those compromises should be made. The .32NAA might be “better” than .380, but is it as controllable in the pistol that fires it?

It comes down to the probability that 32naa is probably better than 380. The problem is that it isn't a real choice due to the lack of availability in both Firearms and ammunition. However, the ammunition is a bit of a red herring, if the pistols that shoot it start showing up, the ammunition will follow.

This leaves us at, how do we get the pistols?

About all we can do is pressure, through requests, both the companies that make pistols that we would like to see in 32naa and the aftermarket by letting them know what aftermarket products we would like to see on the market. Most companies, that last, get very good at following the market. However, they frequently fail to anticipate new demand. For most of us, the best we can do is to communicate with companies that "almost" make what we want. Yes, with some companies it is a waste of time. Others are looking for new ideas in order to enter new segments.

TTv2 said:

Alright, so you're clearly unaware that the .32 NAA is a necked down .380 case to accept a .32 caliber bullet that weighs 80 to 85 grains and is for all intents and purposes identical to .32 H&R Magnum.

I'm gonna lay out the stats, a veritable tale of the tape if you will.

.380:
-85-100 grain bullet
-velocity depending on bullet weight is about 800 to 950 fps
-penetration with expansion typically 10 inches
-expansion is not repeatable or consistent

.32 NAA:
-60 to 85 grain bullet
-velocity depending on bullet weight is about 950 to 1200 fps
-penetration with expansion typically 12 inches with the 80+ grain bullets
-expansion is repeatable and consistent

Ballisticc isn't just about power, it's about penetration and from what I have seen .32 NAA beats .380 in the game of penetration and reliable performance.

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With all respect, why ask your question? I'm all for having a debate about whether or not a pocket gun in a pocket gun caliber is enough and weighing out the pros and cons of each caliber/gun as to why it is a subjective "best". .22s are easier to shoot, .25s ignite more reliably that .22s, .3+ caliber packs more punch at the expense of recoil, etc. I see serious merit in a gun so easy to have on your person that you actually carry it even if it doesn't push 9x19 numbers. I don't understand asking the question when you find the .32 naa to be a better mousetrap than the .380. I have never fired one. Ballistically superior or not, it's chambered for one gun that weighs 20.4oz which is out of the pocket gun running for my personal use. 13-14 oz and I'm good with it in a pocket. Heavier than that, regardless of size, I prefer to put it on a belt because it feels like a brick and will usually go with a bigger caliber. I've also only seen .32 naa ammo in the wild once. My LGS had an older box on hand. They have Guardians in the case but they are .380 and .32 acp variety. I'm sure the .32 naa is a wonderful round, but its not popular for whatever reason. I've looked at them a few times, but excellent round or not the platform that it is chambered for isn't for me when it comes to a pocket gun.

I wouldn't see this as a big issue if more guns were chambered for it. When you are talking about one heavy gun chambered in a proprietary cartridge, it sorta does make it harder to argue with the guys saying Glock 43 and be done with it since it weighs less. YMMV of course, and i appreciate you laying out the tape. Just seems like you have your answer based on your narrow parameter of ballistics at all costs...as long as its not 9mm.

TTv2 said:

Yeah, I'm trying to keep this in terms of Lucky Gunner's criteria. The largest caliber they tested was .380, so I'm keeping it to .380 max.

Also, I've yet to find a 9mm as small as any .380 or .32 micro pistol.

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Kahr PM9

Coop45 said:

Kahr PM9

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Nope.

The PM9 weights about twice as much (unloaded) as the small .380s and even more relative to the small .32s. It’s also bigger in every dimension.

The weight alone puts it in a different class, and the size difference is enough to be noticeable when pocket carrying.

Ed Ames said:

Nope.

The PM9 weights about twice as much (unloaded) as the small .380s and even more relative to the small .32s. It’s also bigger in every dimension.

The weight alone puts it in a different class, and the size difference is enough to be noticeable when pocket carrying.

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The Kahr PM9 weighs 14 oz. The NAA Guardian weighs 18 5/8 oz. Both will fit into a pocket, and so can justifiably be called “pocket pistols.” Neither will be “comfortable.”

In my opinion pocket carry with anything bigger than an LCP is a pointless exercise, unless by pocket you mean the large pocket of your winter coat, in which case even a Hi Power would fit nicely with room to spare. Even an LCP is chunky in dress pants, though doable in cargo shorts or jeans.

And the debate rages on and for what? There’s much more to this question than the rather simplistic black and white world of published ballistics. Guns, the people that carry guns, the reason guns are carried, the individuals’s proficiency with their weapon of choice, the need to conceal the weapon and the laws that might apply in a particular state or city are all factors that should be addressed in responding to the OP’s original question. These factors, in the real world, toss the OP’s question into a forensic environment that is highly fluid. Sorry folks but IMO, there is no “best” choice or a black and white “correct” answer. People have written reams about the ideal carry gun and it almost always turns into an attempt to justify the writer’s reasons for selecting a particular weapon. I own a number of handguns. Handguns as a general group are basically task specific weapons. Which one I carry, and the ammunition I use in it, depend entirely what I’m doing, where I expect to be, and what level of threat I expect to encounter. At the end of the day, the best carry gun is the one you have in your hand when things go sideways. There is no substitute for your responsibility to practice with that handgun until you can bring in into play quickly and deliver a good percentage of “A” zone hits at the distance you are most likely to encounter when defending life and limb. And under those circumstances even the lowly 22 bullet will be much more effective when the shooter can deliver “A” zone hits than a round of much greater power that goes whistling over an assailant’s head because the shooter could not shoot that handgun accurately or quickly enough to get the job done! Just my .02 cents.

Mosin77 said:

The Kahr PM9 weighs 14 oz. The NAA Guardian weighs 18 5/8 oz. Both will fit into a pocket, and so can justifiably be called “pocket pistols.” Neither will be “comfortable.”

In my opinion pocket carry with anything bigger than an LCP is a pointless exercise, unless by pocket you mean the large pocket of your winter coat, in which case even a Hi Power would fit nicely with room to spare. Even an LCP is chunky in dress pants, though doable in cargo shorts or jeans.

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Yep. My point exactly. A PM9 weighs more empty than a P3AT weighs fully loaded. And the P3AT (or LCP - same thing, different maker) is heavy enough that when I need to wear dress clothes I opt for the P32 to shave a couple more ounces off the loaded weight.

The .380ACP (also known in Europe as the 9mm short) in my opinion is a "get off me" gun. It's a powerful little pistol good for close quarters work. It's something I carry when the clothes I choose for the occasion won't allow me to conceal anything else. I believe that when coupled with the right ammo, it can be a wicked little defensive gun.

We like pocket pistols because they are so portable. And we want to give them the most powerful cartridge that the platform can handle because most consider the cartridges to be puny.
There seems to be a limit as to how powerful a round you can get into a really small pocket pistol. The major deficit of a pocket pistol is not the low power cartridges, but the difficulty in hitting a vital spot with them. The .25 and .32 ACPs were generally consider face guns.
Instead of more power, some way of better practical accuracy, but I am unable to see how to do that. Another possibility would to make a more deadly projectile say with poison or explosive. Those have been tried and I am not sure what the results were.

I have a question. For those of you that have a lot of .32 naa experience, what's the recoil like? Or rather, what do you suppose the recoil would be like out of a 12oz gun instead of a 20oz one?

I see several new or old is new again cartridges circling back. Companies are taking stabs at .327 magnum again and 5.7 is making the leap from FN. This seems to be a core Ruger strategy. .22 tcm seems to be taking a bit of a foothold if for the fact many of the guns that shoot it also come with a 9mm barrel. I would certainly give it a go just out of a RIA, but its an interesting cartridge that I think would do well in other guns by other manufacturers.

I guess my round about question is that if the .32 naa is the better round in all ways that count, why don't other manufacturers make something for it? Going back to Ruger, you would think they could make NAA a sweetheart of a deal for using their barrel design and cartridge. They are currently trying to revitalize the .327 (again) and have taken the plunge in making a half price Five Seven which is cool, but I don't think I have heard a lot of rumblings for a cheaper pistol option for a difficult to produce round that costs $28 a box of ammo. Im sure if their gun sells well ammo manufacturers will produce cheaper range ammo. Im just wondering why they don't get on this .32 NAA bandwagon and tool up an LCP barrel with a stiffer spring and call it a day? That has to be easier than all the effort it took coming up with a plan and reason to dip its toe in the full size 5.7 waters when as far as pistol sales have gone for them, the little SD pocket models seem to be the hotcakes sellers.

My other question is why doesn't NAA actively try and farm out the .32 NAA? Wouldn't it make sense to rake in a ton of cash on intellectual property over production of a pistol which has higher overhead costs? They could still offer their gun, but checks from Ruger and/or S&W for the rights to run it through their .380s would be easier money, especially since the lion's share of NAA money comes from .22 mini revolvers anyway.

I'm just curious as to why the .32 naa hasn't taken off short of a wonderfully built but heavy for class proprietary pistol.

TTv2 said:

Yeah, so the reason I'm not considering 9mm is because I have yet to find a 9mm semi auto that is as small as a .380 or a .32. Now, everyone who propagates 9mm as a pocket gun and tells people to "get bigger pockets" is being ignorant because I don't dress around a gun I carry, I carry a gun around the way I dress.

In the world of conceal carry and internet gun forums that micro analyze everything thus throwing everything out of proportion, I get that makes me a stupid idiot, but at least I'll be a comfortably dressed stupid idiot.

As to the .380 tests that Lucky Gunner did, they were in a Glock 42 and not a .380 with a shorter barrel, thus I cannot trust the testing criteria given the .380 I would carry is an LCP and its shorter barrel.

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Kahr PM9 is one example of a 9mm pocket gun, subjective - I know.

TTv2 said:

I didn't say .380 was the best, you've clearly not been reading much of this thread where I've practically worshiped the .32 NAA and said that I thought it was better than .380, but instead you shoot your mouth off by putting words in mine.

Good day sir.

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Actually I typed words; in order for me to have "shot off my mouth" I've have to have recorded audio which I didn't.

The part you wrote that I bolded, if based on "work attire" you have my sympathy; been there and it sucked.
If its not, oh well.

CDW4ME said:

Kahr PM9 is one example of a 9mm pocket gun, subjective - I know.



Actually I typed words; in order for me to have "shot off my mouth" I've have to have recorded audio which I didn't.

The part you wrote that I bolded, if based on "work attire" you have my sympathy; been there and it sucked.
If its not, oh well.

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I wonder what part of no 9mm from the OP did you not get? I have a Khar 9mm and love the gun, but have a Two 380's that I love as well. I can tell the difference between them. The 380's are much smaller and lighter for gosh sake. The OP is asking for information of the 380 and below. That is obvious and he is trying to learn. I am not speaking for the OP but obviously he has done research and has ruled out any 9mm for carry do to the size and weight.

TTv2 said:

Okay, a few people seem to have skipped over the first sentence in my OP where I said "By factors I mean ammo and gun price and/or availability."

My intention was to eliminate everything to do regarding guns and ammo and focus solely on the ballistics of pocket pistols under 9mm. I was also intending for this to not be a discussion on what guns are currently available because if THEORETICALLY you had a choice of whatever pocket sized .22, .25 ACP/NAA, or .32 ACP/NAA chambered pistols, would .380 still be better than those options?

Sorry, I'm not an attorney and clearly have poor skill at asking questions to get specific answers. Guess I'll cross that occupation of my list for what I want to be when I grow up.

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TV, You were quite clear in your question. I knew as soon as you posted, there would be the usual Bashers that just want to interrupt the thread. Your question about the 380 being the Best for Pocket under 9mm encompasses a lot of questions and in many ways these guns are in a world of their own. I love them, have been shooting them on a regular schedule for over 10 yrs. Thousands of rounds through them. The best way to really learn is to shoot them often. Each one is in many cases, different from the other.
What is good for me, might not be good for you. I have over the years tried out different guns, but have chosen the 380. My favorites are the Beretta Pico and the Kahr. Some folks find any 380 to have a lot of snap or recoil. I find them to be very mild. Do not know if I just have shot them so much and become immune to the recoil, or what. In fact, I made a statement the other day that I need to shoot more 22.cal as the recoil of the 380 is so mild, thand ammo cost so much that a 22.cal would provide a lot of training at a low cost.
I do not think there is any right answer for what caliber or gun is the right choice for you, without spending some time with you personally. But I see you are on the right track by going the the Lucky Gunner series on Pocket guns.
No matter what gun you choose, you have to train with them on a regular schedule. Do this and you will exceed all expectations and nonsense about them just being gut guns.

Pocket guns conceal better than any other gun made or at least are designed to with comfort. Just a note. I do carry the P32 in summer. The recoil is a little more mild, pleasant to shoot and my gosh, at 6 1/2 ounces is a breeze to carry with light weight shorts or even a swim suite. Good luck with your decision and enjoy the sport of shooting these fine defensive weapons.
* As far as which caliber? Yes, the 380 is a proven cartridge and improving all the time. But the best is actually what is best for you. Shot placement is vital and of the utmost importance.

IMO, one of the factors you can't ignore, about .380, is that manufacturers and firearms designers, for a long time, have considered .380 to be
a concealed carry caliber, and have specifically taken pains, in order to make .380 caliber pistols smaller, thinner, and lighter, than 9mm and many
other calibers. So, with caliber performance set aside, for a moment, the .380, due to the fact that it's generally purpose built, for concealed carry,
it is literally "the gun you will have with you-VS- the 'better' gun, you left home". Size does matter, especially the size which makes it easy to bring the
pistol with you as a matter of regular habit.

32 ACP isn't bad, but .380 is better, and usually very close to the same size and weight, if not smaller...

Fiv3r said:

22 tcm seems to be taking a bit of a foothold if for the fact many of the guns that shoot it also come with a 9mm barrel. I would certainly give it a go just out of a RIA, but its an interesting cartridge that I think would do well in other guns by other manufacturers.

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I also like the idea of 22 tcm. I have the carbine, I would like to see pistol offerings in something other than just the 1911. The CZ clone was dropped from the 22tcm line-up. That leads to the next problem with 22 tcm, much like the 32 naa, there is only a single manufacturer. I would like to see more manufacturers jumping on both of these cartridges. At that point, they can be fairly judged.