"I Feel Comfortable with My...."

Status
Not open for further replies.
And yet you continue to cherry pick information that reinforces your current beliefs
I am always open to new ideas and information.

I started out having no appreciation of the speed of a violent attack, or of the shooting speed that one should master. I learned about those things through training,

I once bought into the concepts of "energy dump" and "knock down power". I've learned better.

At one time, I thought that carrying in the home was a ludicrous idea. Now, I carry at home.

There was a time when I would go and investigate a bump in the night. Never again.

Ten years ago, I was convinced that the .45 ACP was the best carry choice, due to terminal ballistics . New information led me to different conclusions.

At one time, I selected a firearm one the basis of my perception of the likelihood of needing one on a particular errand. Not any more.

Until JohnKSa pointed it out, i had never realized that, to choose on example, the likelihood of misses gave a six shot handgun much more than a 20% margin in effective capacity over a five shot model.

Until a few years ago, I would not carry a semi-auto without a manual safety. That's no longer the case.

I have changed carry guns as ones that were better suited to my needs became available.

I once carried IWB for purposes of concealability. I now carry OWB because of comfort and a faster draw.

Those are a few examples of making changes if they are warranted, as TomJ put it.

and regurgitate that endlessly.
There are nicer ways of expressing that.
 
Reviewing the bidding:

The purpose of this thread is to urge people to consider and challenge the assumptions regarding their choices of carry pieces. Several ideas were provided in the OP to serve as a framework for that process.

It was also stated that, absent the proper mindset and skill-set, no firearm should really make anyone "comfortable" by itself.

The importance of good defensive training was emphasized.

There can be no one answer about what is the "best" defensive firearm. People vary in terms of strength, size, and stamina. Clothing needs vary. Hand sizes vary. Strictness of concealment rules differ. Skills vary. Not all firearms are approved for all jurisdictions. For each person, the best firearm choice is a compromise of several things, including shootability, weight, and concealability.

One thing is constant. The defensive firearm is intended for use in the most serious of all possible circumstances--an unexpected, sudden violent criminal attack--for the purpose of self preservation. That differs from slow fire at stationary targets at the square range. It differs from what is portrayed in screen fiction.

Many people buying firearms for the first time have based their selections on what they have seen in a gun store or a magazine. Some have had the opportunity to try them before buying--at a range, in conditions that do not really simulate defensive shooting.

It might be useful to take the several points listed in the OP and reformulate them into succinct declarative sentences:
  • Defensive shooting differs markedly from shooing at the gun range, in terms of the speed at which things happen; of the usually short distances involved; of the fact that the target is likely moving quickly; and of the fact that speed is as important as precision. No one scores the target in a defensive shooting.
  • Unlike screen fiction, where big guns knock the bad guys out through saloon doors, bullets in real shootings do not knock people down. They wound by damaging specific parts inside the body, hidden from the shooter. For that reason, several shots may be required to give the defender a real chance that his bullets will actually hit any of those internal "stop buttons". That's why we see police dash-cam videos showing several rapid shots being fired at armed attackers.
  • Studies have shown that a practiced person can draw a firearm and fire one shot in about a second and a half, and that a reasonably fit attacker would be able to reach the defender with a bladed weapon from a distance of 21 feet in that time interval.
These are not the subjective opinions of a few internet theorists. They are observations made by recognized defensive shooting trainers, some of whom are members of THR. They reflect the findings of the FBI Training Academy at Quantico, VA, whose research on, and testing of, ammunition serves as the basis of selection for most of the police departments in this country. They reflect the experience of a number of THR members in training and in their law enforcement duties.

One other thing: its is quite natural to believe that, if our circumstances are such that we believe the need to use a gun to be unlikely (and if we don't, we should change something quickly), we should therefore not really need fo carry a serious defensive weapon.

Things don't work that way. Once the action starts, it will be what it will be, regardless of how likely we believed it to be beforehand.

For more information, The Best Defense TV program episodes are excellent. Also look into books and DVDs by the late William Aprill, Lewis Awerbuck, Massad Ayoob, Andrew Branca, Tom Givens, Gila Hayes, Marty Hayes, Kathy Jackson, Rory Miller, Rob Pincus, Karl Rehn, and Claude Werner, to name a few.
 
I feel the most physically comfortable carrying my S&W BodyGuard 38, as it weighs nothing and conceals very well. I do not have to dress around the gun. I am most likely to carry my PT145; a bit larger but holds ten rounds. It is the one I am least accurate with, however. I am most comforted when carrying my PT1911, though I do have to dress around it more. I am most confident with it, and even with 2 rounds less than the PT145, I am very confident it and I can TCOB should the need arise.
 
Periodically re-assessing your Carry defaults & options is certainly not a bad idea.

In the 45+ years since i started carrying I have been thru several changes.

I started with a 9x17 (7+1) PPK/S in a Roy Baker black leather pancake holster (disappeared and carried comfortably under sport/suit coats) and my current favorite is a 2019 .45acp (5+1) SA XDs Mod2 in a couple of different holsters. I also like my 2014 .45acp (9+1) Glock 30S. Both of these shoot both accurately & effortlessly in my hand.
 
In the 45+ years since i started carrying I have been thru several changes
Things can and do change.
  • Circumstances may change: employment rules, dress, strength and physical condition, moving to a rural area, moving to a different jurisdiction...
  • A scary encounter or other event; in my case, one flub with a safety in training made me change my ways.
  • One malfunction too many.
  • A new product.
  • Simply learning something.....
 
Until JohnKSa pointed it out, i had never realized that, to choose on example, the likelihood of misses gave a six shot handgun much more than a 20% margin in effective capacity over a five shot model.
Now we're going to misinterpret data further to support our beliefs.
Hit percentage lowers the 20% margin. Even with him boosting the 6th shot by giving it credit when it wasn't fired hit percentage for one target 10.8% for two targets your success rate only goes up 4% to a whopping 7.1% which is 92.9% FAILURE.
Figure in for a third attacker and/or one determined one that absorbs 2 rounds and is unaffected and even going to 8 rounds you're in the "overwhelmed" territory like I said in the first place.
 
Things can and do change.
  • Circumstances may change: employment rules, dress, strength and physical condition, moving to a rural area, moving to a different jurisdiction...
  • A scary encounter or other event; in my case, one flub with a safety in training made me change my ways.
  • One malfunction too many.
  • A new product.
  • Simply learning something.....
This is so true. Also, societal/cultural changes. Societal/cultural norms changing. Demographics of one's home area changing (for example, the safe blue-collar neighborhood in Detroit that I lived in as a boy became, within 15 years, a criminal and crack infested area with weekly homicides on every block).

Show me a gun-owner who's been carrying concealed, exactly in the same manner/method that he/she started with, for a lot of years who has never changed anything about the way in which he carries a firearm and I'll show you someone who's not paying attention, either that, or is living in some rural utopia frozen in the Norman Rockwell era.
 
On the subject of making changes 'if ... warranted', Rob Pincus tells of how he started out with a .45 ACP, changed to .40 S&W, and when new technology came along, started carrying the 9mm.
Find me one article, pod cast, video or post in the last 10 years that extols the virtue of the new technology 9mm that references the 12" minimum from HWFE and acknowledges that HWFE states that up to 18" would be preferred.
 
Now we're going to misinterpret data further to support our beliefs.
You have it backwards. I drew my conclusions from the analysis.

Hit percentage lowers the 20% margin. Even with him boosting the 6th shot by giving it credit when it wasn't fired hit percentage for one target 10.8% for two targets your success rate only goes up 4% to a whopping 7.1% which is 92.9% FAILURE.
What are you talking about?

From John's table:

For two assailants and a 30% hit rate probability.
# of Shots : Probability of 4 or more hits (i.e. 2 on each assailant).
5 : 3.1%
6 : 7.1%
That's more than a 20% increase. It's more than 100%.

That surprised me.

Why would one give a shot "credit" when it wasn't fired?
A variation of that used to be used by Colt when advertising its DS snubs many years ago
It sure was!
 
I think this thread could be very helpful for some of us - in regards to prevailing in a defensive situation where we begin behind the action curve - but only if we stop focusing on the hardware. Arguments about firearm choices are great and all, but perhaps success or failure is based more in everything else about defensive firearms use.

For example: if we are ambushed and only notice an attack is inbound at a point in time where we know we can not successfully draw and shoot before contact is made, should we still attempt to draw knowing we can't complete the draw before contact? Or should we focus on evading a strike, redirect, and then begin to draw?

I think it would depend on the minutia of the situation. But if we can't contemplate the possibility before hand, how can we hope to take decisive action in the moment?
 
Show me a gun-owner who's been carrying concealed, exactly in the same manner/method that he/she started with, for a lot of years who has never changed anything about the way in which he carries a firearm and I'll show you someone who's not paying attention, either that, or is living in some rural utopia frozen in the Norman Rockwell era.
Well, heres' almost such a case.

A long retired St. Louis PD officer carried a Detective Special years ago.

A few yours ago, I found him working in a gunshop in rural Cedar Hill, MO. He carried the same DS in the same custom holster! But it may have been a back-up gun then.

Here's a funny thing. I was looking at a special 5" 686+ with a tapered underlug and a fluted cylinder.

I commented that the 7 shot capacity made the flute spacing look funny--like an old cap gun.

His reply: "any time you can carry an extra round, it's a good thing".

I bought the gun.
 
I think this thread could be very helpful for some of us - in regards to prevailing in a defensive situation where we begin behind the action curve - but only if we stop focusing on the hardware. Arguments about firearm choices are great and all, but...
Yes, as discussed in Post # 40.
 
Hopefully, the reflection of some folks upon the "gear" aspect of preparedness is still taking a backseat to the development and maintenance of mental preparedness, and - to the extent possible, depending on age and condition - a reasonable degree of physical preparedness. Being able to survive moments of stress means being able to do more than send bullets downrange.

Yes, changing environments and the conditions in which anticipated tasks may occur can certainly influence gear change.

I've always thought many folks took that "comforting, not comfortable" line a little narrowly, and in a manner that reinforced their personal preference for some handgun or caliber. From my perspective, I never felt particularly comforted by having only my .357MAG duty revolver, or 9, .40 or .45 duty pistols with me when dealing with a known or suspected dangerous situation. "Comforting", for me, started when I had the time and ability to at least grab the 870 from the marked or unmarked veh ... or had at least 1 partner alongside me (even if all he/she had was a service handgun, but at least there were 2 or more of us). In later years it would be a shotgun or rifle.

Off-duty? As a younger cop I was carrying a .357MAG, a .44MAG or a 1911. That's changed over the years, though. Nowadays, in retirement, I'm carrying more 5-shto snubs, a LCP .380 or, depending on the risk assessment of the moment, one of my subcompact or compact 9, .40 or .45's.

Sure, everyone once in a while I'll belt on one of my full-size .45's, a .40 or a .357MAG revolver, because I spent so many years running them for range training, drills, etc.

Making me feel "comfortable", though? Not hardly. It's still just a handgun. More like being at least marginally prepared. The degree of "marginal" might vary a bit, depending on the factors related to the size, caliber and capacity of the gun, but it's still going to be me at the wheel, so to speak. The older I get, the more attention I've come to pay to the qualities that make up the gear-user being mentally (and physically, to the degree possible) prepared to run the gear, regardless of where it may fall on the handgun scale.

I refuse to typically gird myself with as much, or more, gear than I used to carry on-duty .... and even then, like I said, if that only meant having a handgun at hand, that didn't mean it was particularly comforting. Long guns were the starting point for "comforting".

Confidence is all well and good, but unjustified or false confidence might be (understandably) problematic.

I know some guys who have survived both on and off-duty OIS incidents over the years, prevailing without having been injured themselves, and interestingly enough, their off-duty and retirement choices still seem to center around options that only give them 5-8 round "capacities". Sure, they had/have higher capacity options, but they don't seem inclined to exclusively belt those on, or even very often. Looking at the choices being made by these sort of guys, many of whom are "gun guys", there seems to be a sweet spot in the 6-8rd range of on-board ammo capacity.

Now, the younger guys (also including some serious shooters and gun guys) seem to exhibit more desire and reliance upon the 12-15rd sweet spot. However, it might be fair to speculate that it's quite likely due to it being what's commonly available, just like 5/6rd revolvers and 7-8rd single stack pistols of earlier times.

What makes you feel "comfortable", or "comforted"? How well can you run it when things get fuzzy? How well can you respond to unexpected gear problems, with whatever you've chosen? How hard have you pushed yourself and your gear in training and recurrent practice conditions?

After all, doing some recreational plinking or slow-fire target practice might only prepare you for those conditions. No big deal if that's your only goal. Spending a few minutes every other week doing some light bag work in your garage may not exactly prepare you for dealing with a sudden physical attack. (It might help maintain still being able to access some previously trained and ingrained skills, granted, but that's for the guy with an existing foundation, supported by some ongoing exercise routine.)
 
Last edited:
fastbolt said:
A variation of that used to be used by Colt when advertising its DS snubs many years ago

It sure was!

The 5 v. 6 shot snubs were the original capacity debate for plainclothes, off-duty and secondary weapons. ;)

The thing was that while some guys liked the extra (6th) round, more guys seemed to prefer the ability to have a slightly smaller snub.

Both sides were right, of course. An extra round at the expense of a slightly larger gun ... or ... a slightly smaller and more easily pocketed snub at the expense of 1 round. However ...

... the "shootability" in live-fire, meaning the size of the grip and felt recoil, probably pushed more shooters in one direction or another in those days. Sounds familiar, huh? ;)
 
The 5 v. 6 shot snubs were the original capacity debate for plainclothes, off-duty and secondary weapons. ;)

The thing was that while some guys liked the extra (6th) round, more guys seemed to prefer the ability to have a slightly smaller snub.

Both sides were right, of course. An extra round at the expense of a slightly larger gun ... or ... a slightly smaller and more easily pocketed snub at the expense of 1 round. However ...

... the "shootability" in live-fire, meaning the size of the grip and felt recoil, probably pushed more shooters in one direction or another in those days. Sounds familiar, huh? ;)

So very true. I remember this “dilemma,” in the mid-Eighties.
 
I ''feel'' comfortable with my RIFLE. But, that's not PRACTICAL....

Remember oh concealed carriers, we do not carry pistols because they're the best option but because they are easier to conceal.

Remember. The mere presentation of a firearm STILL ends the vast, vast, vast majority of conflicts. Having :oops:grandma wield that steal, er, excuse me :ppolymer those #s go up even more //shucks my grandma could run most perps these days off with her straw broom (hehe).
 
That's more than a 20% increase. It's more than 100%.
Yes your success rate would go up over 100% and jump for joy about that side of the coin.
But flip it over and your rate of failure 92.9% vs 96.9% only goes down 4.1% so odds are overwhelming that you still die in the end.
Why would one give a shot "credit" when it wasn't fired?
Can't speak for sure as to John's motive but it would give added credit to each subsequent shot.
 
If a person delves too deeply into the back and forth of statements in this post, they'll never feel comfortable.
I used to ride motorcycles with no helmet, shorts/tshirts in summer. Comfort was key, but I knew that in the event I went skidding on my ass down the highway, it wouldn't be very comfy. Figured I'd deal with it if (when) the time comes. When it did, I couldn't blame anyone but myself, the choice to forego safety in the name of comfort. I lived through that, and changed my habits.

I look at carrying a weapon in the same vein, but learned that trading off for comfort is a dumb idea. Some people are fortunate and I've been one of them. I also know that good fortune can end at anytime, and a 1911 .45 with 2 reloads as well as a p238 with one reload is almost always the minimum now just in case it's not my lucky day. Comfort is overrated anyway.
 
Last edited:
I used to ride motorcycles with no helmet, shorts/tshirts in summer. Comfort was key, but I knew that in the event I went skidding on my ass down the highway, it wouldn't be very comfy. Figured I'd deal with it if (when) the time comes. When it did, I couldn't blame anyone but myself, the choice to forego safety in the name of comfort. I lived through that, and changed my habits.
Apt comparison. I did the same, until that day I laid my bike down at 45 MPH on a gravel-covered stretch of rough pavement. I too changed my habits.

Comfort is overrated anyway.
I'm sure in the post someone already quoted Clint Smith's oft-repeated statement. I used to obsess about "comfortable" carry but life experiences in the past 25 years brought me to carrying primarily a full-sized pistol outside the waistband, having decided that I can no longer compromise between comfort and efficiency.
 
I used to obsess about "comfortable" carry but life experiences in the past 25 years brought me to carrying primarily a full-sized pistol outside the waistband, having decided that I can no longer compromise between comfort and efficiency.
If "comfort" means the avoidance of chronic back pain, I would disagree, but if we take it to mean being "more comfortable" in a more benign sense, I cannot.
 
"the fact that speed is as important as precision"

Sorry but this is not a "fact". Speed is nothing if you can't hit your target. Hitting your target is paramount. A CNS hit with a 22 beats a graze with a 44. That being said, at some point you have to be fast enough to matter.
 
Sorry but this "[that speed is as important as precision"] is not a "fact".

Speed is nothing if you can't hit your target. Hitting your target is paramount.
Yes.

But one must hit the target before it is too late.

And in terms of handgun wounding, "hitting the target" means hitting the "stop buttons" inside the assailant's body. That's a matter of chance; more hits to the right part of the body improve that chance. Precision per se doesn't matter much, as long as all of the shots are in the right place, and are fired in the time available.

The objective is balancing speed and precision.
 
Show me a gun-owner who's been carrying concealed, exactly in the same manner/method that he/she started with, for a lot of years who has never changed anything about the way in which he carries a firearm and I'll show you someone who's not paying attention, either that, or is living in some rural utopia frozen in the Norman Rockwell era

Show me a gun owner who's been carrying concealed exactly in the same manner he/ she started and I'll show you someone who can find his gun and reloads without thinking about it....because they are where they have always been. The vast majority of the carry rigs people start with can work if people worked with them. New equipment can be bought. Skill...not so much. Just see way too many people flit from gun to gun.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top