Are Manual Safeties on Striker Fired Handguns Heresy??

Being old school, I personally like the manual safeties on automatics. As I started shooting about 60 years ago, with primarily rifle and shotgun, using a manual safety is secind nature still today. The only one I have that does not have a manual safety is my CC. I made sure to get a holster that covers the entire trigger and guard, so I can't accidentally get a finger on the trigger. I also practice shooting from the holster, every range trip, just to stay tuned up. Shooting is not like riding a bicycle, if you don't use it, you can lose it, so shoot and shoot often.

Trey Veston said:

I am...

View attachment 1015879

Click to expand...

I can't blame you if you feel like Forrest. Forrest had an incredibile life.

5-SHOTS said:

I can't blame you if you feel like Forrest. Forrest had an incredibile life.

Click to expand...

From Italy and like tanks?

Ironic.

My grandfather was there in WWII in a highly decorated tank unit and helped free the people from Marxism...

Trey Veston said:

From Italy and like tanks?

Ironic.

My grandfather was there in WWII in a highly decorated tank unit and helped free the people from Marxism...

View attachment 1015880

View attachment 1015881


View attachment 1015882

View attachment 1015883

View attachment 1015884

View attachment 1015885

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm Italian and I like tanks (I'm a modeller).
Maximum respect for the service your grandfather rendered in the United States Army and his contribution to the liberation of Italy from fascism, Western Europe from nazism and in the protection of Western Europe from communism. Unfortunately, however, the sinister shadow of communism has permeated the culture and society of Western Europe and Italy and to avoid this the tanks were not enough.

A couple of U.S. tanks from my collection.

gnappi said:

Maybe a better question is why would anyone care what someone else likes or uses?

Click to expand...

It's a matter of perceived general safety. People don't want the possibility of someone else negligently discharging their firearm in their vicinity.

Alllen Bundy said:

It's a matter of perceived general safety. People don't want the possibility of someone else negligently discharging their firearm in their vicinity.

Click to expand...

I think its been pretty well established, regardless of the number or types of safeties, that the only way thats going to happen is if you dont have a gun in their vicinity.

gnappi said:

Maybe a better question is why would anyone care what someone else likes or uses? It's like railed guns, the vast majority of guns have them I generally don't buy them, and could care less what other peeps hang on theirs, or not.

Click to expand...

I don’t think we are trying to change the mind of anyone who has a lot of experience. I think going through these arguments is very helpful for newer shooters who read through these threads. I know that doing so expands my knowledge on many subjects on this forum.

This will go round and round but it comes down to one simple fact. People make mistakes. Even highly trained people make mistakes. Manual safeties lessen the odds of mistakes resulting in an errant shot fired. Getting training does not mean a mistake won't happen. it means there is a lesser possibility of it happening. I say lesser because many people consider themselves trained when the person who trained them is a moron. Others get quality training but can't continue to practice or train at that level. A 2 day course at Thunder Ranch for handguns is like $1500, and that doesn't include travelling or lodging. And it best it lays the groundwork that must be continued to build upon or the skills you learned in 2 whole days will quickly fade,

The advice of "keep your finger off the trigger" is good advice, but people make mistakes. Even trained people as the LASD shows, or the countless videos we have all seen on youtube of trained people screwing up. Some of those idiots would have screwed up even with a safety, like the DEA agent who was "the only one qualified to handle a gun" and then shot himself in a room full of kids. I can guarantee you the dancing FBI agent, certainly trained to a level most here won't be, wouldn't have let a shot go if he had a safety on his gun. Plaxico Burris wouldn't have went to prison if he had a safety on his gun.

It's all about odds for me. The odds of me needing to draw a weapon and fire it in self defense are remote, so coupled with the practice I do on a daily basis, I am confident that I will automatically disengage the safety on the draw as I have trained to do, just as those against safeties are so confident that they won't touch the trigger before they mean to, since they have trained to not do that. They are also so confident that in the unlikely event they are in a shooting, they will competently holster their weapon with their finger off the trigger and nothing getting caught in the trigger guard. They're not worried about shock and adrenaline getting in the way of doing that. Hey, they're trained! I am less likely to get shot in a self defense shooting and forgetting to take the safety off then I am screwing up during routine gun handling, or having a momentary brain fart, or being tired. And if I do screw up, it might be somebody else with a hole in them or another family planning a funeral, so I choose a safety. And no, they are not "heresy".

@Homerboy
Quit making sense.

'Tis truly awesome that there are members here who have never make a mistake, never could, never would, never will...and know with certainty that isn't even in the realm of possibility. Alas, I fear that I cannot have that sort of faith in all those gun-owner out there who are not members of this esteemed group.

Homerboy said:

And no, they are not "heresy".

Click to expand...

I elect to agree with this.

Homerboy said:

Somebody in this thread referred to the safety in the M&P as the size of a slice of pizza.

Click to expand...

That was me. I normally say the safety is like bat wings but I was hungry so I switched to slice of pizza.

Trey Veston said:

Before those two, I carried a S&W M&P40c with a safety. However, that safety is actually a negative since it is too big, and too easy to engage or disengage. You could manipulate it by

Click to expand...

Quick comments....

There are a couple ways to firm it up. I did.

In your vid, you also said the safety is plastic and too big.

The lever has a stainless steel frame.

I shaved (sanded it) the safety lever narrower. I shaved enough to remove 3 grooves/ribs worth of material with out reaching the stainless steel frame.


I got 2 or 3 extra safety levers and started playing with them to see what I wanted on other sides. I ended up with the same shape but just smaller and kept it as ambi

Weird all this talk about kids and guns. Growing up I knew better then to touch one unless given permission!!! All my cousins were the same way. WW3 would have started on our behinds if we did and we knew it. So what changed?

danez71 said:

That was me. I normally say the safety is like bat wings but I was hungry so I switched to slice of pizza.


Quick comments....

There are a couple ways to firm it up. I did.

In your vid, you also said the safety is plastic and too big.

The lever has a stainless steel frame.

I shaved (sanded it) the safety lever narrower. I shaved enough to remove 3 grooves/ribs worth of material with out reaching the stainless steel frame.


I got 2 or 3 extra safety levers and started playing with them to see what I wanted on other sides. I ended up with the same shape but just smaller and kept it as ambi

Click to expand...

That’s cool, but I’m not handy enough to try that. I just wish the massive aftermarket support for the M&P included something professionally done. At least a single sided version of it.

Meeks36 said:

Weird all this talk about kids and guns. Growing up I knew better then to touch one unless given permission!!! All my cousins were the same way. WW3 would have started on our behinds if we did and we knew it. So what changed?

Click to expand...

I don’t know, but I’m ok with guns not being accessible to kids. We also knew we’d get slammed if we touched a gun, but I remember vividly waiting until the grown ups went downstairs to play cards and my brother dragging the kitchen chair in front of the fridge to get to the cabinet where we knew my uncle kept his service revolver, then 4 of us, ages 7-11, passed a loaded gun around. Miracle nobody got shot.

Old Dog said:

@Homerboy
Quit making sense.

'Tis truly awesome that there are members here who have never make a mistake, never could, never would, never will...and know with certainty that isn't even in the realm of possibility. Alas, I fear that I cannot have that sort of faith in all those gun-owner out there who are not members of this esteemed group.



I elect to agree with this.

Click to expand...

I don't remember anyone here saying they never made a mistake, safety or no added safety. Or did I miss it?

So I guess what youre saying, which is basically what some of us have been saying all along, it doesn't matter what the gun is, there is always the possibility of problems occurring. Noting in infallible, and with a heavy emphasis on the user in that respect.

Knock on wood, in the 60 some odd years I've been handling and shooting firearms, Ive never had an AD or even a close call, and I shoot a lot more than most, and handle all sorts of guns on a daily basis, and have carried a gun, or two, on a daily basis for over 45 years. I've carried and used guns with safeties, and without, even guns that most have little experience with, and difficulty with in regards to safety, and regardless of how the guns are set up, the one thing that I believe has kept me on the positive side of things is, constant positive reinforcement in practice/training, or what ever you want to call it, and minding that trigger finger.

And I'm in no way arrogant enough to believe it can't happen to me, but I constantly work damn hard to make sure it doesn't.

Never trust a child with a gun.

Homerboy said:

I don’t know, but I’m ok with guns not being accessible to kids. We also knew we’d get slammed if we touched a gun, but I remember vividly waiting until the grown ups went downstairs to play cards and my brother dragging the kitchen chair in front of the fridge to get to the cabinet where we knew my uncle kept his service revolver, then 4 of us, ages 7-11, passed a loaded gun around. Miracle nobody got shot.

Click to expand...

Differences in how we are taught and brought up, can make big differences in a lot of things.

We were taught to shoot very early on, and regularly encouraged to handle all sorts of different guns all the time growing up. We never had to sneak anything, nor would we have ever thought to do it, it wasn't necessary, we could see anything in the house, any time we wanted, and a lot of that, were things most adults these days, have never handled or shot. We were always educated about things that were dangerous, guns or not, and not taught with fear.

Our kids grew up they same way, and we never had any issues with them. I trusted them with a loaded weapon in their hands at 5 or 6, than most of the adults I've known, and especially a lot of those who became adults in the past couple of decades.

Seems the dumbing down of America has taken root. Pretty friggin scary too.

trackskippy said:

I don't remember anyone here saying they never made a mistake, safety or no added safety. Or did I miss it?

So I guess what youre saying, which is basically what some of us have been saying all along, it doesn't matter what the gun is, there is always the possibility of problems occurring. Noting in infallible, and with a heavy emphasis on the user in that respect.

Knock on wood, in the 60 some odd years I've been handling and shooting firearms, Ive never had an AD or even a close call, and I shoot a lot more than most, and handle all sorts of guns on a daily basis, and have carried a gun, or two, on a daily basis for over 45 years. I've carried and used guns with safeties, and without, even guns that most have little experience with, and difficulty with in regards to safety, and regardless of how the guns are set up, the one thing that I believe has kept me on the positive side of things is, constant positive reinforcement in practice/training, or what ever you want to call it, and minding that trigger finger.

And I'm in no way arrogant enough to believe it can't happen to me, but I constantly work damn hard to make sure it doesn't.

Click to expand...

Plenty of posters here have said a safety is unnecessary because they have trained to not touch the trigger.

trackskippy said:

Differences in how we are taught and brought up, can make big differences in a lot of things.

We were taught to shoot very early on, and regularly encouraged to handle all sorts of different guns all the time growing up. We never had to sneak anything, nor would we have ever thought to do it, it wasn't necessary, we could see anything in the house, any time we wanted, and a lot of that, were things most adults these days, have never handled or shot. We were always educated about things that were dangerous, guns or not, and not taught with fear.

Our kids grew up they same way, and we never had any issues with them. I trusted them with a loaded weapon in their hands at 5 or 6, than most of the adults I've known, and especially a lot of those who became adults in the past couple of decades.

Seems the dumbing down of America has taken root. Pretty friggin scary too.

Click to expand...

I wouldn’t trust a 5 year old anywhere near a gun without direct supervision. I wouldn’t trust any child to be around a gun without direct supervision. I wouldn’t let my kids hang out in a friends house if I knew guns were unsecured.

One of the few things I think we have gotten better at. Dumbing down? I don’t think so.

Training not to touch the trigger is no different than training to take the safety off. In some cases, you multitask and do both.

Never said kids should handle guns unsupervised. Different eras, different thinking too. We were allowed to hunt on our own out behind our house with our 22's at ten.

If you teach them young, they know the dangers if they should encounter them elsewhere. Don't teach them at your own peril.

Dumbing down is very obvious, just look at the state of things in general today.

trackskippy said:

Training not to touch the trigger is no different than training to take the safety off. In some cases, you multitask and do both.

Never said kids should handle guns unsupervised. If you teach them young, they know the dangers if they should encounter them elsewhere. Don't teach them at your own peril.

Dumbing down is very obvious, just look at the state of things in general today.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but forgetting to take the safety off means a shot doesn’t get fired. Unless you’re in a self defense shooting, highly highly unlikely. Nobody is hurt.

Touching the trigger when you didn’t want to will very likely result in a shot being fired when you didn’t want to, particularly with a light trigger on a striker fired gun. 500% increase in the LASD when switched from Beretta 92 to the M&P.

One mistake means nobody gets shot who shouldn’t have been. The other means somebody does who shouldn’t have been.

It’s why people can safely Mexican Carry a hammer fired gun and even Glock instructs the users of their product to always have trigger guard covered. It’s why I can and have thrown a J frame in a pocket for a walk to the store and I wouldn’t dream of doing that with my LC9S.

trackskippy said:

I don't remember anyone here saying they never made a mistake, safety or no added safety. Or did I miss it?

Click to expand...

Gotta get good at "reading between the lines." Lotsa stuff implied in many responses.

A bit of condescension here and there, especially with regard to comments on the (level of or lack thereof) training of military and law enforcement, some smugness leaking through, certainly more’n a bit of hubris. Especially from some saying they themselves don’t need a manual safety, but others may, and the choice is… personal.

Meeks36 said:

Weird all this talk about kids and guns. Growing up I knew better then to touch one unless given permission!!! All my cousins were the same way. WW3 would have started on our behinds if we did and we knew it. So what changed?

Click to expand...

I remember in elementary school in the 3rd grade, the idiot kid across the street shot HIMSELF in the hand with a BB gun. I think that I made a mental note to NOT be that idiot!

I do remember taking the State of Minnesota sponsored firearms safety class when I was 14. But by that time most gun safety had already been engrained into me. Even TV shows taught you to treat every gun as if it was loaded. The only thing that they taught in the gun safety class, that I didn't already know, was that at one time they made brass shotgun shells. The class was mostly common sense information. We watched a film. Listened to the adults talk about guns. Easy peasy.

But what scared the crap out of me was that some kids FAILED THE TEST! These were also kids in farm country where everyone's dad had a least a rifle or a shotgun and hunting was very common. I thought "HOLY SH*T! Just how stupid are these kids?" And THEY are going to have guns in their hands?

trackskippy said:

We were allowed to hunt on our own out behind our house with our 22's at ten.

Click to expand...

This isn't all that unreasonable, but

trackskippy said:

I trusted them with a loaded weapon in their hands at 5 or 6

Click to expand...

... this just isn't wise, period.

Homerboy said:

Yeah, but forgetting to take the safety off means a shot doesn’t get fired. Unless you’re in a self defense shooting, highly highly unlikely. Nobody is hurt.

Touching the trigger when you didn’t want to will very likely result in a shot being fired when you didn’t want to, particularly with a light trigger on a striker fired gun. 500% increase in the LASD when switched from Beretta 92 to the M&P.

One mistake means nobody gets shot who shouldn’t have been. The other means somebody does who shouldn’t have been.

It’s why people can safely Mexican Carry a hammer fired gun and even Glock instructs the users of their product to always have trigger guard covered. It’s why I can and have thrown a J frame in a pocket for a walk to the store and I wouldn’t dream of doing that with my LC9S.

Click to expand...

Forgetting to take the safety of is just as bad as forgetting to put it back on, and the results can be the same either way. And as I've said before, if the gun is in your hand, the safety should be off, so the trigger finger is now in control. And there is a difference between "touching" a trigger, and "pulling" a trigger.

And for about the bazillionth time now, training with any of them, IS the key here.

Old Dog said:

Gotta get good at "reading between the lines." Lotsa stuff implied in many responses.

A bit of condescension here and there, especially with regard to comments on the (level of or lack thereof) training of military and law enforcement, some smugness leaking through, certainly more’n a bit of hubris. Especially from some saying they themselves don’t need a manual safety, but others may, and the choice is… personal.

Click to expand...

Read anything into it you want, truth usually hurts, and I guess some can't handle it.

I've never said manual safeties are bad, any more than I've said a gun without one is bad. All I've said all along is, the user is the problem in 99.9% of the cases, and that is what needs addressed.

And my comments on the military and police are based on my first hand experience with a good number of both, and I stand by that. Just because you were in and they taught you, doesn't mean a whole lot. I'm not saying it's across the board, but its common enough to be scary. And as I've also said here, a basic training course is just that, basic, and just a start, not a graduation, which in this case, never happens. If you don't keep up with and maintain your training, you stagnate, you don't gain, or even retain.

TarDevil said:

This isn't all that unreasonable, but
... this just isn't wise, period.

Click to expand...

I'm wasn't saying let them run around with a gun, or handling them unsupervised. I was referring to them being safe with their handling of them.

The best time to start teaching and instilling safety in them, is a soon as they can handle them, and then it's constantly pounded into their head. Kids are not stupid and learn quickly.

The first time they actually "fire" a gun, isn't the first time they "shot" it. That should have been done thousands of times prior in practice.

Unfortunately, many seem to not want to take the time and effort to start them early, and/or think you have to wait until they are much older to start them. At that point, they've already had years of bad influences and programming and that just makes things a lot harder.

trackskippy said:

Forgetting to take the safety of is just as bad as forgetting to put it back on, and the results can be the same either way. And as I've said before, if the gun is in your hand, the safety should be off, so the trigger finger is now in control. And there is a difference between "touching" a trigger, and "pulling" a trigger.

And for about the bazillionth time now, training with any of them, IS the key here.


Read anything into it you want, truth usually hurts, and I guess some can't handle it.

I've never said manual safeties are bad, any more than I've said a gun without one is bad. All I've said all along is, the user is the problem in 99.9% of the cases, and that is what needs addressed.

And my comments on the military and police are based on my first hand experience with a good number of both, and I stand by that. Just because you were in and they taught you, doesn't mean a whole lot. I'm not saying it's across the board, but its common enough to be scary. And as I've also said here, a basic training course is just that, basic, and just a start, not a graduation, which in this case, never happens. If you don't keep up with and maintain your training, you stagnate, you don't gain, or even retain.


I'm wasn't saying let them run around with a gun, or handling them unsupervised. I was referring to them being safe with their handling of them.

The best time to start teaching and instilling safety in them, is a soon as they can handle them, and then it's constantly pounded into their head. Kids are not stupid and learn quickly.

The first time they actually "fire" a gun, isn't the first time they "shot" it. That should have been done thousands of times prior in practice.

Unfortunately, many seem to not want to take the time and effort to start them early, and/or think you have to wait until they are much older to start them. At that point, they've already had years of bad influences and programming and that just makes things a lot harder.

Click to expand...

Forgetting to take the safety off is only just as bad as forgetting to put it back on in the extremely unlikely occurrence of drawing your weapon and actually firing it under stress. How many here have experienced that? Have you? Forgetting it while at the range is no big deal, and ironically is part of the training process. You get that “oops, that was stupid” feeling and then you strive to not do it anymore. It happened to me when I transitioned from slide mounted up to fire safeties on my Berettas and S&W 3rd gen guns to frame mounted down to fire safeties on my Ruger and M&P pistols. There was a period where I’d still sweep up on the slide to disengage but after getting used to the new system that’s all I do now.

Nobody here has advocated against training. Only a moron would do that. It was stated by you that the training you rely on to never touch that trigger when you didn’t mean to is all you need. Yet many who have had training have screwed up. Some with lots of training. But the truth is that the definition of adequate training is very vague, the qualifications of the instructor are dubious, the assessment of the student is not defined, and none of it is even mandatory in most cases. What is the passing rate at these safety courses required to get a carry permit? I bet it’s near 100%. Is that because the training is so good, or is it because it’s so basic that everybody who paid their fee passes? Many people can’t afford the kind of training it would take to attain a level of mastery, and many don’t want to take the time to do it. Which is why I shoot alone for the most part. Too many unsafe clowns out there. As much as I strive not to drop guns or to try to catch it I do, I know my instinct would be to grab for it as I would anything else I dropped, and I’d feel a lot better if the gun I did that with had a safety engaged or at least a long double action trigger.

And the difference in touching a trigger and pulling it is pretty slim when you have a 5 pound short travel trigger, and it’s non existent when you’re in an adrenaline dump if you’re actually pulling your weapon under stress. If a dancing FBI agent can let a shot go when the gun falls, you think you won’t if you’re amped up? I’m sure somewhere in his FBI training they might have mentioned keep your finger off the trigger and don’t try to catch it if it falls. His training didn’t work and somebody caught a bullet. Thank God he was trained.

Yeah. 99.9% of the time it’s the user. No argument from me there. We are members of a gun forum, by definition gun enthusiasts. And the level of experience here is questionable. You could question mine. You don’t know me. Now look at the average gun owner and tell me how much training they get. What kind of training? I’ve seen some “instructors” do some downright scary nonsense. Remember the 9 year old who killed her instructor firing full auto? How about the father instructing his son how to shoot and he swatted some hot brass away with the gun in his hand, killing his son? I witnessed a range instructor shoot him self in the foot in front of an auditorium full of recruits. He was demonstrating how easy it was to screw up while holstering. It was Gun and Shield Day for the recruits, and the range instructor forgot he was carrying his live weapon instead of the training weapon without the firing pin. Boom! He made a mistake. Some would still happen even if there was a safety, many are prevented because of one.

500% increase in ND’s when they transitioned to M&P’s. Can’t argue with those numbers. At the very least, it proves those types of guns are much less forgiving of human error.

This is getting boring. Enjoy your Glocks or whatever you carry.