The Unloaded Gun

bassjam said:

homicide

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just means one person was killed by another. I think you mean "murder".

armydog said:

Do I think he committed murder? No.

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Correct. "Murder" requires intent. Andrew Branca argues persuasively that Baldwin committed felony involuntary manslaughter.

old lady new shooter said:

argues persuasively that Baldwin committed felony involuntary manslaughter.

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Not sure, there may be some legalities involved with making a film, that reduces his liability (as an actor, not as the producer).

The gun is a prop, an object used in the making of a movie. The actor is doing specifically what the scene calls for, pointing said prop in a certain direction. His supporting production crew has 'verified' to the best of his knowledge that the prop is safe; we've seen firearms pointed towards camera a zillion times in other movies and TV. They use a real firearm for increased realism (appearance). He's almost certainly supposed to pull the trigger in this scene. He's doing exactly as directed.

Due to horrible circumstances, someone put a loaded gun in his hand. As PRODUCER, he's responsible for whoever is in charge of that prop.

I don´t see how can any person, famous or not be exempt of knowing the four rules of safety when handling firearms.
There are things in life that are covered by common sense. Some have it and some don´t. Would you, if told there was a snake inside a pail remove the lid and put your hand in it? Now, everyone is aware that there ARE venomous snakes. How can one forget that?
All firearms are loaded – Jeff Cooper´s first rule
Never let the muzzle of a firearm point at anything you are not willing to destroy – Jeff Cooper´s second rule
He broke both. He put his hand inside the pail and was bitten.

Regards, Raimundo

Quotations by the armorer on the set of RUST , taken from a podcast (prior to the incident) ---

"I think the best part about my job is just showing people who are normally kind of freaked out by guns how safe they can be and how they’re not really problematic unless put in the wrong hands," Reed said on "Voices of the West."

Reed also said on the podcast that "loading blanks" into a prop gun is the "scariest thing to me."

"You have to like look at the front of it and determine which one is the blank if it’s dummied up. That’s how I tell at least," she explained. "Every movie I’m learning new and new things — it’s all very quick."

The manner in which she discusses her area of responsibility certainly does not inspire confidence.

A local gun shop has a very large glass jar on their counter with various rounds of ammo. That is the jar where they throw rounds they clear out of "unloaded" guns brought in by their customers and it's nearly full.

Raimundo said:

I don´t see how can any person, famous or not be exempt of knowing the four rules of safety when handling firearms.

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^^^ THIS ^^^

No one over the age of ten gets a pass -- NO one.
If not, don't even consider touching a gun.

I have been to LGS locations that DO NOT WANT the customer to manipulate a firearm in ANY manner when it is being shown to them: DO NOT operate the slide, DO NOT open the cylinder, DO NOT function the action. The theme being the only they are smart enough to handle the firearm, and their idiot customers will only damage the merchandise without buying it.

RetiredUSNChief said:

BUT I CLEARLY REMEMBERED READING BOTH THE TAG AND THE BREAKER LABEL AND VERIFIED THEM TO BE IDENTICAL. In fact, I could recite the words because I literally could still visualize them in my mind at the time.

I was not a novice at this, either. And I fully understood the gravity of the tagout system.

I saw what I EXPECTED to see and not what was actually there.

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And the procedure accomplished what it was designed to do. That is more on the rare side of occurrences. A physical illness that an individual is not even aware of yet could be the cause of a mistake.

A lot of safety procedures are not designed based around us having our best day. They're emplaced to help keep things safe on our worst days. Complacency, stress, fatigue, monotony can lead to mistakes... not to be confused with carelessness.

I’ll bet there is a written set of industry protocols for the handling of both firearms and facsimile firearms. This probably includes muzzle control. This will be part of how the conduct of the parties will be judged.

I had an incident that serves as a good reminder to check, double and triple check my firearms before setting them down or storing them, I will never make the same mistake again although I do not know how I made the mistake in the first place. I had my hunting rifle in the corner of my bedroom and a friend of mine who was visiting was kind of checking it out and asking me what it was and picked it up, cocked the bolt and out came a live cartridge.

He said "bro, you know you've had a loaded gun over here". I didn't even know what to say. I always shuck the round out and remove the magazine before I put it back in my vehicle and check it once or twice more between the house and putting it up. It had been sitting there like that for a while and I didn't know it. Not sure how it happened but it will never happen again....

Sorry about the way that link looks, not really a phone guy. But evidently there was an actual live round in the gun, as In one with a lead bullet.

GNP said:

Sorry about the way that link looks, not really a phone guy. But evidently there was an actual live round in the gun, as In one with a lead bullet.

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Well that answers the prosecutors question that I read she was still looking for an answer to as of last night. Also explains going right through the lady.

Sounds to me like bored unprofessional (independent film) crew members were taking the movie's guns out in the desert and shooting cans with live ammunition for recreation.
That should never be done.

From post #113

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2021/10/27/alec-baldwin-rust-updates/

the ? and everything after is fluff for gathering marketing info, where was it linked form, who get credit for promoting the WaPo story, etc.

Carl N. Brown said:

Sounds to me like bored unprofessional (independent film) crew members were taking the movie's guns out in the desert and shooting cans with live ammunition for recreation.
That should never be done.

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This is what my wife was telling me a few days ago.

That right there is a HUGE problem. Prop guns are PROP GUNS and shouldn't be used for anything else.

All the safety mechanisms in the world are NOT an excuse to use a prop gun for anything other than a prop gun.

lsudave said:

Not sure, there may be some legalities involved with making a film, that reduces his liability (as an actor, not as the producer).

The gun is a prop, an object used in the making of a movie. The actor is doing specifically what the scene calls for, pointing said prop in a certain direction. His supporting production crew has 'verified' to the best of his knowledge that the prop is safe; we've seen firearms pointed towards camera a zillion times in other movies and TV. They use a real firearm for increased realism (appearance). He's almost certainly supposed to pull the trigger in this scene. He's doing exactly as directed.

Due to horrible circumstances, someone put a loaded gun in his hand. As PRODUCER, he's responsible for whoever is in charge of that prop.

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Except the scene was not being filmed at the time. He was supposed to be demonstrating how he would draw and aim the gun. HE NEVERTHELESS FIRED IT.

Carl N. Brown said:

Sounds to me like bored unprofessional (independent film) crew members were taking the movie's guns out in the desert and shooting cans with live ammunition for recreation.
That should never be done.

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One story said the so-called armorer took people out into the desert with the guns so they could experience actually shooting them.

old lady new shooter said:

Except the scene was not being filmed at the time. He was supposed to be demonstrating how he would draw and aim the gun. HE NEVERTHELESS FIRED IT.

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I thought the accepted procedure is to use a realistic "rubber gun" for rehearsals and all scenes/takes when a gun won't be fired. There is no need to add the risk of using a blank-firing or "real" firearm in a rehearsal.

Carl N. Brown said:

From post #113

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2021/10/27/alec-baldwin-rust-updates/

the ? and everything after is fluff for gathering marketing info, where was it linked form, who get credit for promoting the WaPo story, etc.

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That was the only way I was able to save it on my phone.

This is all the armorer and nobody else. Not even Baldwin and I don't even like him. Unless, of course, he was messing around. To show how he was going to act during a scene with a single or multiple targets would require cocking and firing. To be realistic. No pun intended.

If you want to jump out of an airplane and take the appropriate class and then jump and go splat, does everyone blame the jumper or the individual that packed the chute incorrectly. It is a matter of expertise, IMO. I wouldn't expect an actor to have much.

Not the greatest analogy but an expert armorer was employed specifically for this purpose.