JHP vs FMJ for Defense.
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NinjaFeint
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It's more likely to stop in my wall than go through. This is important for me.
physics. the expansion of the JHP and the resulting increase in frontal area requires expending more energy to continues it's penetration into the medium
According to Massad Ayoob, if you could look at police shooting reports, I'm sure you'd find that JHP stops faster than FMJ. Take the NYPD for example. Another issue is overpenetration. 9mm FMJ is notorious for over penetrating (taken from Ayoob's book: The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry). I'm going to take Ayoob's word on this.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Stopping power is directly related to tissue & organ damage, and the resulting rapid blood loss.
That results in a drop in blood pressure and hemorrhagic shock.
A FMJ makes a bullet dia hole through a person and continues on down the street.
The resulting small hole is less likely to bleed profusely, and shock from blood loss takes longer to occur.
A JHP opens on the way in, and tears a bigger hole.
Given enough velocity, it also makes a much bigger temporary stretch cavity that provides massive internal damage.
It stands to reason that a JHP that performs as designed will result in a higher incidence of quick stops compared to a FMJ smaller then bullet dia. hole, and resulting slow leak.
Marshall & Sanow data suggests the very best 9mm JHP provides about an 88% - 91% one-shot stops.
The FMJ only about 58% - 70%.
rc
That results in a drop in blood pressure and hemorrhagic shock.
A FMJ makes a bullet dia hole through a person and continues on down the street.
The resulting small hole is less likely to bleed profusely, and shock from blood loss takes longer to occur.
A JHP opens on the way in, and tears a bigger hole.
Given enough velocity, it also makes a much bigger temporary stretch cavity that provides massive internal damage.
It stands to reason that a JHP that performs as designed will result in a higher incidence of quick stops compared to a FMJ smaller then bullet dia. hole, and resulting slow leak.
Marshall & Sanow data suggests the very best 9mm JHP provides about an 88% - 91% one-shot stops.
The FMJ only about 58% - 70%.
rc
"...the probability that the Marshall & Sanow "data base" is an assembly of valid information from uncorrupted sources is so low that this "data base" cannot reasonably be believed.
The shameless popular gun press will probably continue to provide a forum for the Marshall & Sanow nonsense in the interests of selling magazines. One can reasonably hope that the target audience for this material will henceforth be only the kind of eccentrics that become involved with the all too common irrational cults so prevalent in our society."
from another point of view
The shameless popular gun press will probably continue to provide a forum for the Marshall & Sanow nonsense in the interests of selling magazines. One can reasonably hope that the target audience for this material will henceforth be only the kind of eccentrics that become involved with the all too common irrational cults so prevalent in our society."
from another point of view
Bobo
Member
Generally speaking, the more a JHP expands the more it is slowed and the less penetration it has.
Most JHP's are designed to penetrate enough to reach vital parts of the human body even if they expand fully.
This of course can vary depending on many factors which may or may not be present during each individual shot. These factors can include but are not limited to: distance/bullet velocity; bullet mass; external barriers such as a wall, door, furniture, glass, etc.; amount of clothing; point of initial impact to body; whether bone is hit or not; where the wound cavity occurs; how large the wound cavity is; etc.
Bobo
Most JHP's are designed to penetrate enough to reach vital parts of the human body even if they expand fully.
This of course can vary depending on many factors which may or may not be present during each individual shot. These factors can include but are not limited to: distance/bullet velocity; bullet mass; external barriers such as a wall, door, furniture, glass, etc.; amount of clothing; point of initial impact to body; whether bone is hit or not; where the wound cavity occurs; how large the wound cavity is; etc.
Bobo
mljdeckard
Member
Exactly what rcmodel said. It's all about creating as many cm3 of tissue damage as possible.
Look at it this way. Handguns are fundamentally underpowered to do the job at all. Unless you are entering .44 Magnumville, they all suck for the purpose of stopping a charging attacker in enough time to save your life. Because of this flaw, you need to give yourself all the advantages you can. There is no such thing as 'good enough' when you are deciding what pistol round you can use. This is why you see so much research and development put into making better and more effective JHP ammo. You are fighting for your life. This is not the time you want to settle for half of the advantages you can get. I won't settle for one good hit no matter what round I am using.
Having said that, I think that the real-life differences may be minimal. Or limited by the shooter's ability to put good hits on the target. What I DO NOT agree with is the idea that JHPs prevent overpenetration and the hazard of hitting unintended people beyond the target. In a real life shooting, you may well miss, and rule #4 applies at all times, even if you use hollow-points.
Look at it this way. Handguns are fundamentally underpowered to do the job at all. Unless you are entering .44 Magnumville, they all suck for the purpose of stopping a charging attacker in enough time to save your life. Because of this flaw, you need to give yourself all the advantages you can. There is no such thing as 'good enough' when you are deciding what pistol round you can use. This is why you see so much research and development put into making better and more effective JHP ammo. You are fighting for your life. This is not the time you want to settle for half of the advantages you can get. I won't settle for one good hit no matter what round I am using.
Having said that, I think that the real-life differences may be minimal. Or limited by the shooter's ability to put good hits on the target. What I DO NOT agree with is the idea that JHPs prevent overpenetration and the hazard of hitting unintended people beyond the target. In a real life shooting, you may well miss, and rule #4 applies at all times, even if you use hollow-points.
Hawthorne2k
Member
The purpose of a defensive round is to transfer the kinetic energy of the bullet into the target as efficiently and effectively as possible. JHP's tend to expand and increase the amount of energy transferred, (think baseball bat), FMJ rounds just keep on going right through (think stiletto) unless they hit something like a big bones to slow them down.
Shawn Dodson
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The purpose of a defensive cartridge is to quickly compel rapid unconscious collapse by damaging vital tissues. Placement and adequate penetration are the keys to reliable rapid incapacitation.
A roundnose FMJ bullet has a slipstream shape which produces little disruption of the medium it is passing through (air, soft tissues), unless it yaws or is damaged by striking an object between shooter and target.
An expanded JHP bullet does not have a slipstream shape therefore soft tissues don't merely stretch and flow around the bullet as it penetrates. It is also usually larger in diameter, which means it contacts and crushes more tissue (makes a bigger hole).
In addition, some tissues are inelastic and don't tolerate stretching and the temporary cavity produced by an expanded JHP bullet may produce greater damage than what the bullet actually contacts and crushes, depending on where the temporary cavity is located in relation to the tissue that is being penetrated. The combination of permanent crush damage and permanent damage caused by temporary cavitation is referred to as "permanent disruption." A JHP bullet has the potential to produce greater permanent disruption than a roundnose FMJ bullet.
What the bullet hits is more important than what kind of bullet it is.
Cheers!
The chances are better that a JHP will be more effective since it has the possibility of expanding and creating a larger permanent wound cavity. However, it is almost as likely that it will not expand enough to create any appreciable difference; hand gun cartridges just don't generate enough velocity to reliably expand.
The development of rapidly expanding bullets has helped but they are still unreliable. The best way to counter the lack of reliable expansion is to fire a larger diameter bullet to start with; thus the argument for the .45 ACP as a better defensive round than the 9mm.
Of course the big intangible in this is when you shoot a person he knows he has been shot, unlike an animal, and the psychological effect is likely just as debilitating as the physical one. We tend to discuss this in terms of the maniac that is hell bent on killing you. The truth is that a very small percentage of us non LE citizens will ever have to draw a weapon to defend our selfs and the likely hood of the maniac scenario is pretty far fetched. The vast majority of people that you would encounter would be trying to un-ass as soon as you fired a round, hit or miss.
The development of rapidly expanding bullets has helped but they are still unreliable. The best way to counter the lack of reliable expansion is to fire a larger diameter bullet to start with; thus the argument for the .45 ACP as a better defensive round than the 9mm.
Of course the big intangible in this is when you shoot a person he knows he has been shot, unlike an animal, and the psychological effect is likely just as debilitating as the physical one. We tend to discuss this in terms of the maniac that is hell bent on killing you. The truth is that a very small percentage of us non LE citizens will ever have to draw a weapon to defend our selfs and the likely hood of the maniac scenario is pretty far fetched. The vast majority of people that you would encounter would be trying to un-ass as soon as you fired a round, hit or miss.
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KBintheSLC
Member
The evidence is slim... FMJ kills too. However...
I think that using FMJ in a 9mm will just end up wasting a lot of the bullet's energy. It will just pass right through your target and keep on going. If you use expanding ammo (assuming it does expand), you are more likely to deliver that energy into your target instead of what is behind them. The wound channel will likely be larger, meaning more bleeding. Bleeding out is one of very few real factors in "stopping power".
I think that using FMJ in a 9mm will just end up wasting a lot of the bullet's energy. It will just pass right through your target and keep on going. If you use expanding ammo (assuming it does expand), you are more likely to deliver that energy into your target instead of what is behind them. The wound channel will likely be larger, meaning more bleeding. Bleeding out is one of very few real factors in "stopping power".
Deanimator
Member
More important to me, it's more likely to stop in my assailant.
The NYPD had a serious problem with bystanders being hit by through and throughs when they issued 9x19mm FMJs. Ayoob has written extensively on the subject.
A 9mm FMJ is never going to be smaller than .355, nor is it likely to ever be bigger.
A 9mm JHP is never going to be smaller than .355". It MAY be significantly BIGGER after impact. It is also likely to be greatly diminished in velocity, and profoundly unaerodynamic.
Why on EARTH would I EVER want to use the FMJ for typical self-defense instead of the JHP?
KBintheSLC
Member
Only three reasons I can think of...
1) I use FMJ-FP in my 10mm Auto as a woods defense load for maximum penetration.
2) I use FMJ in sub-caliber pocket guns like my P32 for maximum penetration.
3) Any other time when maximum penetration is desired.
Besides that, it seems that JHP makes more sense.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
OTOH, many militaries (now, including the U.S.A.) have used (or still are
using) the 9m/m Parabellum FMJ's; due to the Geneva Convention. So, I
imagine the 9m/m FMJ's have killed their fair share of evil dwellers, in all
parts of the world~!
using) the 9m/m Parabellum FMJ's; due to the Geneva Convention. So, I
imagine the 9m/m FMJ's have killed their fair share of evil dwellers, in all
parts of the world~!
Deanimator
Member
The Hague Conventions, actually.
9mm FMJs have killed a lot people... usually fired from submachineguns and not infrequently, fired into the back of the head of a kneeling victim. I don't carry an MP40, nor do I engage in mass executions by shooting. I won't be using anything but Winchester White Box 147gr. JHPs.
481
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I agree with those above as to the use of 9mm FMJ where maximum penetration is desired above all else.
Through "harder" obstacles/barriers and in those cases where heavy target physiology is a factor, expansion may inhibit penetration where maximum penetration is the most important aspect of terminal performance.
I cannot imagine any realistic or likely "scenario" for the "general public" that might call exclusively for an FMJ since many hollowpoints now pass the F.B.I. protocols, part of which mandate 12 inches of penetration after passing through a simulated automotive door.
If penetration through automotive body work is the desired effect, the FMJ will certainly fill the role, though not ideally. Heavier structures (support beams, columns, multiple layers of metal sheet, engine blocks, etc.) will defeat even the "hottest" 9mm FMJ and after a certain point, AP rifle rounds become the only "sure thing".
Against the typical "softer" threats we are most likely to encounter (robbers, rapists, the odd "heavily clothed thug"), JHPs are still the best option, IMHO.
Through "harder" obstacles/barriers and in those cases where heavy target physiology is a factor, expansion may inhibit penetration where maximum penetration is the most important aspect of terminal performance.
I cannot imagine any realistic or likely "scenario" for the "general public" that might call exclusively for an FMJ since many hollowpoints now pass the F.B.I. protocols, part of which mandate 12 inches of penetration after passing through a simulated automotive door.
If penetration through automotive body work is the desired effect, the FMJ will certainly fill the role, though not ideally. Heavier structures (support beams, columns, multiple layers of metal sheet, engine blocks, etc.) will defeat even the "hottest" 9mm FMJ and after a certain point, AP rifle rounds become the only "sure thing".
Against the typical "softer" threats we are most likely to encounter (robbers, rapists, the odd "heavily clothed thug"), JHPs are still the best option, IMHO.
Just because armies are handicapped with FMJ doesn't make it optimum for an individual person not saddled with the logistical nightmares a government would have to deal with, nor are they carrying the ammo with any likelihood of needing to lay down suppressive fire, or engage vast numbers of enemies for extended periods.
A few shots, at close range, while your opponent is probably still trying to kill you. Luckily private citizens have the luxury of optimizing their ammunition choice, because they don't have the luxury of air support, crew-served weapons, armored vehicles, or a squad of buddies with rifles and light machine guns.
ROFL! Why worry about overpenetration? You mention the NYPD for example. Let's look further: NYPD averages on 1 round on target out of 15 fired. Why is it that people worry about overpenetration (and a slowly exiting round) and ignore the other 14 rounds flying full speed past the target?
If you read the FBI report on wounding ballistics, penetration is the most important thing in immediate stops. The bullet has to go deep enough to reach the central nervous system (brain or spinal cord). A bad guy can still live long enough to kill you even if you hit a major artery or the heart. Will an expanding hollow point go deep enough through clothing, bone and body mass to reach the spine?
Ken
Deanimator
Member
Unlike the NYPD, I can't rule myself justified if I shoot a toddler, whether via a miss or a through and through.
rmfnla
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Ayoob is right.
I love to experiment with bullet peformance. Years ago I was shooting in a dump and found a huge roll of corregated steel. I had several guns with me so I decided to do an impromptu penetration comparison. What I remember most is the 9mm FMJ penetrated through as many layers as my .41 Mag JSP, a real surprise to me.
A bullet that goes through the target is taking energy with it.
mljdeckard
Member
I completely agree with paints.
Worrying about overpenetration in picking your ammo is useless. You have to control all of your bullets, all of the time, regardless of the situation. There is no bullet that makes an exception to rule #4. ALL of them MAY overpenetrate and hit what is behind the target. ALL of them are going to hit something when you MISS. If a bullet isn't likely to penetrate all the way through a human torso, I don't want to carry it at all.
Worrying about overpenetration in picking your ammo is useless. You have to control all of your bullets, all of the time, regardless of the situation. There is no bullet that makes an exception to rule #4. ALL of them MAY overpenetrate and hit what is behind the target. ALL of them are going to hit something when you MISS. If a bullet isn't likely to penetrate all the way through a human torso, I don't want to carry it at all.
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