JHP vs FMJ for Defense.

[Shawn Dodson]

scoutsabout writes:

1. The 9mm must expand for maximum effect against human adversaries, otherwise it zips right through.

Identical logic reveals that a .45 ACP bullet must also expand "for maximum effect against human adversaries, otherwise it zips right through."

Effectiveness is a function of what structures the bullet damages and destroys, which in turn is a function of bullet placement and bullet penetration.

2. The .45 ACP performs against people similar to expanded 9mm, whether it expands or not.

Untrue. Bullet shape determines the amount of tissue crushed by a penetrating bullet. Depending on the particular bullet (the flatter the meplat (bullet point) the better), some unexpanded 9mm JHPs crush more tissue than .45 ACP FMJ-RN.

3. Round nose and FMJ have higher probability of over-penetration and ricochet, regardless of caliber.

Over-penetration? I'm inclined to agree if one assumes a solid, center mass hit. But many hits aren't solid, center mass hits - they hit along the periphery of the body where the wound track is just a few inches before the bullet exits. Ricochet? I'm unaware of ANY data to support the belief that Round Nose and FMJ bullets exhibit different ricochet characteristics. If you have data, please share.

4. ALWAYS carry hollow points for defense... it stands up better in court.

I'd really like to see where you picked up this nonsense.

5. If I were forced to rely on FMJ for defense, I would choose .45 ACP hands down.

In an ideal world, yes. But we live in the real world and there are applications where FMJ is the best choice in smaller cartridges that better meet a person's particular carry requirements.

Cheers!

 

[MCgunner]

Again, I am not an expert. I've just been following reputable sources for about 12 years.

Hell, everyone that answers one of these threads is a self professed expert. I'm learning to be a man of few words on such topics. Everyone seems to know the truth and few opinions seem to agree.

 

[Magnumite]

Realistically, it would be difficult to be an expert outside of research and constant work in the field of ballistics. The best most of us can do is research, ask competent sources, maybe do some low level tests of our own, then make our decisions.

I said before given hollowpoint ammo for antipersonnel defensive use, I wouldn't have a issue with 9mm or 45ACP. I have my preference...but with either I'd feel well equipped. But I would really insist on hollowpoint for 9mm. But that's me.

 

[harrygunner]

A physicist can sometimes decide what is "better" without solving the problem analytically.

In this case, the more something interacts with you, the more you are aware of its presence.

A hollow point interacts with its target more than a FMJ. Given the weakness of a handgun, I'd stack as much on my side as possible and use hollow points.

How much hollow points buys you involves solving the problem. But, the choice is easy between the two.

 

[mljdeckard]

One sec shawn,

No matter how you cut it, a .45 is going to do more tissue damage than a 9mm. Anything you can do to a 9mm to make it nastier, you can do to a .45 as well. A .45 STARTS almost at the same diameter as a expanded 9mm jhp. It has twice as much weight as a basic 9mm load. No matter how much cavity trauma a 9mm can cause, a .45 can cause more. He should have phrased his statement differently, but to say that a 9mm has any tissue damage advantage over a .45, you must stack the best possible performance of the best 9mm JHP against the worst possible performance of a .45 FMJ.

Yes, they will all overpenetrate. I know of no legal standard or precedent that makes JHP more or less likely to cause charges to be pressed or affect the outcome of a case.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

A .45 STARTS almost at the same diameter as a expanded 9mm jhp.

Most modern 9mm JHPs reliably expand between 1.6 (.57) - 1.8 (.64) times unfired diameter.

No matter how much cavity trauma a 9mm can cause, a .45 can cause more.

but to say that a 9mm has any tissue damage advantage over a .45, you must stack the best possible performance of the best 9mm JHP against the worst possible performance of a .45 FMJ.

You might have missed that I was comparing certain UNEXPANDED 9mm JHPs to common, everyday.45 ACP FMJ-RN. An unexpanded JHP is in essence an FMJ - Truncated Cone shape, with a flat meplat (nose).

 

[Manco]

No matter how you cut it, a .45 is going to do more tissue damage than a 9mm. Anything you can do to a 9mm to make it nastier, you can do to a .45 as well.

A larger bullet certainly has more potential, but there are other factors, of course.

A .45 STARTS almost at the same diameter as a expanded 9mm jhp.

As Shawn pointed out, modern 9mm JHPs expand to substantially greater than 0.452". Not only that, the shape of the resulting projectile is more apt to crush a wide swath of tissue rather than open a minimal hole and temporarily stretch the tissue around it like a round-nose bullet does. This is why, for example, SWC bullets are recommended in some calibers when penetration with an expanded JHP could be lacking.

It has twice as much weight as a basic 9mm load. No matter how much cavity trauma a 9mm can cause, a .45 can cause more.

A .45 ACP bullet generally has more wound potential, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a .45 ACP FMJ will perform similarly to either an expanded 9mm JHP or an expanded .45 ACP JHP, for that matter. Read the original statement, which implies that we really can't do better than .45 ACP FMJ. I think we can. In fact, I'm not even sure whether a .45 ACP FMJ-RN does all that much more damage than a 9mm FMJ-RN in living flesh. I think I'd rather get hit by either of those than a WWB .40 S&W FMJ-TC round with its 6mm meplat.

He should have phrased his statement differently,

I'll say, and I would suggest that when made together, claims derived even from expert opinions be logically consistent with one another for good measure.

but to say that a 9mm has any tissue damage advantage over a .45, you must stack the best possible performance of the best 9mm JHP against the worst possible performance of a .45 FMJ.

I doubt even that much is necessary--all one needs is expansion to 0.452" or greater (easy these days), a shape more conducive to crushing tissue (done), and enough momentum to potentially overpenetrate (usually not a problem, especially with the weak expansion to .452" in this example).

Yes, they will all overpenetrate. I know of no legal standard or precedent that makes JHP more or less likely to cause charges to be pressed or affect the outcome of a case.

Additionally, they could try to hang you either way. For example, they could say that FMJ bullets are dangerous military-style "assault" bullets that can pass through and kill several people at once, or that they're so ineffective that it forces you to put multiple rounds into a person just to incapacitate them, causing unnecessary suffering and death. With JHP, they could say that this type of "dum dum" bullet, a favorite among gangsters and terrorists, is so cruel and causes so much suffering that not even the military is allowed to use them. If there is a best option in terms of legal defense, I guess one should use whatever the local police department uses (undoubtedly JHP, if not more specific than that).

 

[McCall911]

I couldn't help but notice that the OP hasn't contributed anything to the discussion other than the original question. No follow-up questions, no comments about what was under discussion, no anything.

Since the FMJ vs. JHP debates are nothing new to the any of the forums that I'm aware of and since they never seem to be resolved to a consensus, I've learned to be suspicious of such threads.

Really there are few facts to everyone's satisfaction but a lot of opinions.

 

[357SIG]

If anyone thinks "bleeding out" is going to make any difference, you should take some anatomy and physiology courses. Unless you make some sort of massive exit wound, you might as well forget about bleeding someone out in enough time to make even the slightest difference. Even common small or medium caliber rifle rounds LIKELY won't cause enough bleeding. You must disable major organs to stop the fight, and the only real surefire way is to hit the medulla of the brain (most of the body's control center, including muscle control).

A good hit to the pelvic girdle will generally stop forward motion, but the subject can still shoot from the ground.

A direct shot to the heart will kill, but not instantly, giving the subject enough time to shoot back or stab you.

Spinal shots will only disable the subject from the point of injury down. If you don't hit someone in the upper cervical spine, they can still use their arms and shoot you.

I could go on all day with this.

Moral of the story is SHOT PLACEMENT IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS WHEN SECONDS COUNT!

 

[hinton03]

357SIG: you could go on all day and it would still be just as unpractical as it is right now to make a head shot in a gun fight. Even police only connect about 1 in 10 or so shots anywhere on the body and the chance of one of those hitting the central nervous system are not good.

About the only practical option is center of mass to damage major organs or arteries giving the guy about 30 seconds to live; exit wounds make no difference once the vital organs are reached (unless you plan on trailing them once they unass), they will bleed out internally just as fast with no exit wound. Therefore, the only realistic chance you have to stop someone in their tracks is Psychological ; the majority of people don't like being shot and will most likely stop or retreat once the survival instinct kicks in. Although I have never killed anyone with a handgun my guess is once I have shot them in the chest it should give me an opportunity to retreat to safety; if you happen to get the drug crazed maniac that doesn't care if he lives or dies then it is just not your day.

If you haven't read the FBI study on handgun wounding and effects I would recommend it.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

 

[Paints]

Accepting the FBI study that CNS (brain, spine) shots are the only ones that immediately incapacitate an attacker (an approach that makes sense to me), I wonder if the typical COM chest aim point is less than optimal. The ribs will slow down and/or deflect a round more than a gut shot, I would think. Remember, the point is to get to the spine while causing as much other damage as possible since the spine is a small target, especially at an angle.

Any thoughts as to if shooting lower than at heart level (below the ribs) might be more effective? Again, I realize that the real target is the center of the back (spine).

In regard to 357sig's comments that middle spine or pelvic will only drop the person to the ground but still allow him to shoot (if he can maneuver into position), I'm willing to accept that: he can't keep approaching or chasing me and his ability to aim carefully is certain compromised, if not his will to attack.

Ken

 

[easyg]

If anyone thinks "bleeding out" is going to make any difference, you should take some anatomy and physiology courses. Unless you make some sort of massive exit wound, you might as well forget about bleeding someone out in enough time to make even the slightest difference.

Not true.

The size of the exit wound really doesn't matter much.
Just a small nick in the aorta, subclavian artery, common iliac artery, carotid artery or the femoral artery, regardless of the exit wound, will kill a man very quickly.

At the hospital where I work a surgeon accidentally cut the common iliac artery while doing a spinal procedure.
The patient bled to death in about 25 seconds.
And this patient had a very low heart-rate since he was "under" for the procedure, and we were actively trying to save his life.
A person in a gunfight would have a very high heart-rate and would bleed out even quicker.

Even common small or medium caliber rifle rounds LIKELY won't cause enough bleeding. You must disable major organs to stop the fight, and the only real surefire way is to hit the medulla of the brain (most of the body's control center, including muscle control).

I'm all for head shots, but nothing is guaranteed....
There have been folks shot in the brain who have lived to tell the tale.

A good hit to the pelvic girdle will generally stop forward motion, but the subject can still shoot from the ground.

I would not rely upon a pelvic girdle shot to stop someone's forward advancement.
From a frontal approach, there's a good chance that you would miss the pelvis altogether and just punch through the bladder and colon.
And even if you did hit the pelvis, it doesn't mean the target will be unable to walk.
This might come as a surprise to some folks, but people can (and do) sometimes walk with pelvic fractures.
I've seen it with my own two eyes.
I once X-rayed a guy who fell from his roof, got up and walked to his truck, drove himself to the ER, and walked in to admissions ....
After the X-ray exam we discovered that he had a broken hip (femoral neck fracture).

A direct shot to the heart will kill, but not instantly, giving the subject enough time to shoot back or stab you.

True.
But again, even a shot to brain might not instantly stop someone from shooting back.

Spinal shots will only disable the subject from the point of injury down. If you don't hit someone in the upper cervical spine, they can still use their arms and shoot you.

Not necessarily.
Spinal injuries are not always so clear cut and precise.

I could go on all day with this.

In general I agree with what you're getting at, but the sad truth of the matter is that there's just no guarantee of an "instant stop" regardless of shot placement.
Humans don't always behave like science and medicine say they should.

Moral of the story is SHOT PLACEMENT IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS WHEN SECONDS COUNT!

Sure shot placement is of the utmost importance.
But when two folks are moving and bullets are flying in both directions, you might not be able to obtain that perfect shot placement.

The smart move is to avoid getting shot, while placing as many shots as possible in to your target, center-of-mass, until they ceases to pose a threat.

 

[chemclay]

Shawn Dodson

do you have pics that show FMJ performance. i'm reevaluating my carry load.

thank you

 

[357SIG]

The point of my post may have eluded you guys...

In a nut shell, I want to say the caliber or bullet type is of little consequence if it can reach the same body parts. A 9mm 115 JHP and a .45 ACP 230 gr. JHP directly to the femoral artery will be the same (as far as the body is concerned...maybe not physics).

There are too many variables to this; you can never make instant stops happen reliably, but I'm willing to bet a shot to the medulla oblongata will do it. Drugs, etc. won't matter here, and it true...most of the rest of the brain can take a bullet without death or instant death. In that respect, yes, a brain shot isn't a guarantee, but the chances of a brain stem (medulla) hit not doing it are probably less than hitting 5 lotteries in a row. With that said, it may be the hardest thing for most people to hit on a silhouette target at the range, let alone a living, moving person shooting back.

Massive internal bleeding can be just as bad as anything, but that doesn't change what I said. Even massive internal bleeding can take time, if only 2 seconds or 10 minutes, but that's time the subject is still possibly fighting. Yes, a hit to the arch of the aorta or other major arterial branch will bleed you out, but it isn't instant at all. 30 seconds is a long time in a fight, especially with weapons.

A strike to the colon is a strike to the colon, not the pelvis. I understand your point, but again...not what I meant.

I understand there are many dynamics to everything, but I didn't intend on responding to this by teaching a full course in human anatomy, just something for folks to think about. I'm speaking of a normal hit to a normal body part on a normal person. Add drugs and things change dramatically. Some people can take pain better than others too.

easyg, I definitely respect your input. It taught someone something and that's invaluable. Just know I never meant it to mean "this will happen every time."

Hinton, I did not address practicality, but only what happens if the shot hits body part X. Weapons and tactics excluded, as that is a whole other can of worms. I would not take a shot at the medulla unless I was on my last round in my last mag, and I'd still miss. I have a decent amount of training in pistol, rifle, shotgun, and SMG use in close quarters and fully understand the dynamics. One thing I've learned is nothing is ever certain and no methods are ever the only way to do it. I respect your input too.

 

[hinton03]

The FBI has set penetration parameters in ballistic gelatin that should allow any round that meets them to reach the vital organs in a human. This brings us back to the OP; certainly a FMJ projectile will reach the vitals but the key to increased effectiveness is getting there with an expanding bullet that has a greater chance of damaging one of those organs or Arteries that will cause massive blood loss.

I would think that if you have a well built JHP the rib cage will not prevent the bullet from penetrating to the vitals. Depending on the angle you may have a problem getting through a shoulder or arm and reaching the vitals.

 

[scoutsabout]

Well, if we just carried shotguns around...

Without brandishing flack-tons of actual research, I doubt we can resolve many of the points we've argued here. The research is out there, though... so novices need to keep finding it, discussing it, and making up your own minds.

Anway, I've enjoyed yet another heated debate. For those of us with unwavering opinions, I think there is still something to learn. I would imagine that we are frequently either dissecting or generalizing too much. I'm reminded of the argument about "reasonable accuracy within the alotted time" for defensive purposes. We can't hope to draw and get a head shot in under 1 second, at 7 yards, under duress, against a moving target, who is shooting back at us. We can, however, expect to get solid COM hits if we go for it... quick as possible. We need to focus on what is attainable, reasonable, and relatively effective... amid the myriad, murky, overlapping variables.

Hitting is better than missing. Outside of that, everything is variables.

For those of us who are still developing our beliefs, keep researching. The opinions expressed in forums like this should serve as motivation and thought provocation, nothing more. Learn what you can through research from scholarly sources... not opinions. Not even "professional" opinions. In the end, you must become your own expert... which is probably where a lot of these feverishly defended opinions come from. They are not wrong... they just need some salt.

Great discussion, you guys... I'm sticking with my 1911 and .45 ACP JHP for defense. That's what works best for me. I started out with 9mm, and ran with .40 S&W for a while, but this is now the system that affords me the greatest defensive capabilities. There are people who would even argue THAT with me... but I'm the authority on my own life, whether they like it or not. I spent hundreds of thousands of rounds across all three calibers to get here. Nobody can pull the trigger for me, or stand trial for me, so I will keep striving for my own best solutions, thank you very much. I encourage you to do the same.

Shoot a lot. Keep learning. Use what systems, tactics, techniques and philosophies work best for you.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

chemclay inquires:

do you have pics that show FMJ performance. i'm reevaluating my carry load.

How about a little more information? You can PM or e-mail if you desire ([email protected]).

 

[mljdeckard]

I also carry a 1911 loaded with 230 gr HSTs. But it is backup to the rifle or shotgun I keep in my vehicle and home at all times.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I'll stick with JHPs in my defensive guns, as long as I've proven them to my satisfaction to function reliably.

[1] I agree that shot placement is king. But my shot placement isn't going to be any better with FMJs than with JHPs. I'm equally likely to get good shot placement with JHPs as I am with FMJs.

[2] Modern, quality commercial JHPs in cartridges of consequence (e. g., .45 ACP, 9mm Luger or .40 S&W) offer adequate penetration.

[3] An expanded JHP will give me a larger wound channel and greater tissue disruption than FMJs, given equivalent shot placement. Even if, in a particular case, the value of a larger wound channel and greater tissue disruption may be unclear, it can't be a disadvantage.

[4] Even if a particular JHP bullet doesn't expand, it will perform similarly to an FMJ.

[5] So I see no real downside to using JHPs and no possible, meaningful advantage to using FMJs. As far as I see, using JHPs is all upside.

 

[Manco]

Moral of the story is SHOT PLACEMENT IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS WHEN SECONDS COUNT!

It's not the ONLY thing. Like everything else, shot placement is subject to random factors and probability. The key point in any debate of this sort is how to maximize one's probability of survival by making sound choices ahead of time. To take an extreme example, .22 CB Short is probably not the best caliber for self-defense because while it tends to maximize the probability of effective shot placement, there is a good chance that it will lack the penetration necessary to reach vital tissues.

When the topic is JHP vs FMJ as it is in this thread, the issue should be the relative probabilities of hitting and disrupting vital tissues given the exact same shot placement. Obviously, where a shot will land has a lot of randomness in a typical gunfight after the probabilities are set up by the participants' individual levels of skill, preparation, and awareness--you won't know how and where the other guy will move while you squeeze the trigger, for one thing, and you probably won't have very long to carefully align and aim down your sights, either.

Calculating the exact probabilities is complex and probably well beyond the scope of a forum posting, but we can try to get a rough intuitive sense of the magnitude of the difference involved. As an example, let's say hypothetically that in a real gunfight, under duress, you can hit more or less randomly within a 10" x 10" square, center of mass. Within this area is at least one structure, the spine and associated major blood vessels, that take up about a 3" x 10" area within the probable hit zone. Using tiny bullets with sufficient penetration, your chance of hitting something vital is about 30%. Assuming the best possible performance of 9mm FMJ bullets, the probability that you'll at least nick something vital--that is, you can miss by half the diameter of the bullet on either side--is (3" + 0.18" +0.18") / 10" = 33.6%. For .45 ACP bullets, the hit probability is 34.5%, an improvement of only 2.7% over 9mm. Modern 9mm JHPs such as Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot can reliably expand to about double their starting diameter, which yields a hit probability of 37.2%, an improvement of 10.7% over FMJ.

Note that the preceding is sort of a worst-case scenario for JHP and differences in general because it only takes into account a single dimension due to the nature of the example. If we use a 4" x 4" square representing the heart instead, then .45 ACP FMJ is 4.2% more likely to hit and 9mm JHP is 17.2% more likely, which I think is pretty good. Also note that JHP should be superior at wounding near its edges, and also causes a lot more damage with a solid hit.

The whole point of this exercise is to quantify how much more forgiving certain rounds are of imperfect shot placement. People can wave their hands around and reiterate the gospel of shot placement until they're blue in the face, but the truth is that some rounds can effectively make one's shot placement better than it would have been otherwise, scoring hits to vital areas that could have been misses with the exact same shot placement.

 

[hinton03]

Manco, you have way too much time on your hands. ;-) That was beautiful and reminded me why I hated stat when getting my masters.

 

[357SIG]

The whole point of this exercise is to quantify how much more forgiving certain rounds are of imperfect shot placement. People can wave their hands around and reiterate the gospel of shot placement until they're blue in the face, but the truth is that some rounds can effectively make one's shot placement better than it would have been otherwise, scoring hits to vital areas that could have been misses with the exact same shot placement.

Again, I am not saying anyone will be able to score a good hit on demand. If you have a direct hit, what I said applies....that's it. Nothing more. What you're saying does somewhat align with what I'm saying, though. You may be able to get the bigger, more destructive wound cavity to do more damage if in close proximity to a vital organ.

Anyway, to the original topic, I fully defend the JHP over any FMJ round. Once again, the probability of hitting what you want is very small, and the wound cavity of the JHP will assist with damage and incapacitation. Overpenetration is debatable, but less likely with JHP than FMJ, and energy dump does matter, though it isn't everything. I use Speer Gold Dots whenever possible because of the bonded core and reputation.

I still say other than tactics, shot placement is key. With that said, I do not practice perfect shot placement when I practice defensive shooting. There are more important things to work on. However, I will not ignore that a good shot is better than the bullet, caliber, etc.

 

[Waywatcher]

I used to obsess about getting a high quality JHP, but simply found it wasn't worth my time. The cost is usually double, and I simply cannot afford to buy enough to prove reliability (250 rounds IMO) and cycle out ammo periodically. I can shoot a lot more often with FMJ and that is more important to me.

 

[DougW]

Nothing but JHP's in all my hand guns. The carry Glocks have +P JHP's.

Bullet placement is the key, but I tend to get laughs at 3 Gun Matches for hitting the poppers 3 or 4 times while they are falling.

 

[NVCZ]

I agree with JHP for defense. It's pretty much all been said earlier, but also it's the added turbulence of a JHP inside the body that traumatizes tissues and organs by a higher degree than a FMJ.

When you increase the ballistics to a .45 JHP the trauma increases correspondingly.

For me, FMJ for the range, and JHP for defense.

NVCZ