Xdm 45 or fnh 5.7x28

481 said:

Everybody? The market has indicated otherwise.

The ability to fire armor piercing ammo: the the 5.7's "claim to fame"..... rings quite hollow since such ammunition (AP) is also available for pistols in sufficient calibers where such ammo is legal to possess.

Click to expand...

Everybody and anybody can own 5.7 armor piercing ammo that actually performs in soft tissue after it penetrates. There are no other calibers that offer such performance short of a prototye and/or extremely restricted production round making it practically inaccessible.

The SS190 is the standard factory armor piercing round which was found by NATO and many others to be the better choice against armored targets. I carry an aftermarket round that performs MUCH better than the SS190 shown in the following video. The round that I carry will actually leave a fist-sized cavity behind the IIIa armor and continue to penetrate 10 inches. Jealous yet?

Watch the magic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtisZ9lT9Vs

Jim Watson said:

Against my will, I was impressed.

Click to expand...

That pretty much says it all. None of us like change, but the Five-seveN does so many things right, we are forced to appreciate them.

Jim Watson said:

I am not going to pronounce on "stopping power" but you have 20 fast tries to work on the problem.

Click to expand...

There is no such thing as "stopping power", but if you are meaning tissue damage, the Five-seveN has been documented to work equally well against two-legged threats as older, more established calibers.

I should add that many less savvy consumers pay upwards of 1200-1300 for a Five-seveN. I watched a guy at a gun show pay 1200 for a previously fired Five-seveN. I just walked away shaking my head. At that price you could buy 3 brand new XDm's.

Let's be honest, you simply can't compare a gun that fires a relatively new caliber bullet, and costs over a thousand dollars, to a gun that fires a century old caliber and costs 1/3 the price. If the Five-seveN was 500.00 dollars, it's obvious that the demand would increase commensurately.

Now we can argue all day long if the Five-seveN is worth 1,000 US. The market must think so because they keep buying them and FNH isn't lowering the price so they must be happy with the demand.

I'm still looking for the recent sales figures..

if i could find a Five-seveN for under $850 id buy it in a heartbeat

The round that I carry will actually leave a fist-sized cavity behind the IIIa armor and continue to penetrate 10 inches.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't brag about that unless you are Authorized Personnel.
Such things can lead to increased restriction and repression.

G|0cKbYtE said:

Jealous yet?

Watch the magic!

Click to expand...

Not particularly. I'd rather not depend on "magic" when it comes to my and my family's safety.

I shot it. After some rehab, I broke the instant crack-like addiction that occurs to everyone that tries one.

It's not magical. It's not any more technologically advanced than any other polymer-framed pistol on the market. It is just as effective as a .22 mag fired from a rifle, I don't see anyone clamoring for defensive rifles chambered in .22 mag. Accuracy at 100 yards is not something I demand from a defensive handgun.

I'll take your money on it becoming more and more popular and accepted and imitated in the future. I think in ten years you will have to get your own brass from Starline to feed the thing.

Now if someone just wants one, I'll tell them to just get one. Buy, shoot, enjoy whatever you want. But I think this one belongs in the safe next to the .44 Automag.

I have both. They are completly different. The xdm is my competition firearm. The fiveseven in a general carry gun. I would take the fiveseven, light, good stopping power and low recoil

481, I'll agree that the demand isn't as high as you say it is, but I think it's for different reasons. As others have said, there's the price difference and the ammo availability.

However, it is not a varmint round any more than the 5.56 is, as far as I'm concerned. It does have its disadvantages and it does have it's advantages. And 481, I am not going to just say "you're the reason the last thread was locked", but there were pages of you saying there's no proof that the 5.7 is a good bullet, despite evidence to the contrary.

Mljdeckard, rifle platforms are a completely different animal, and you can't compare what one wants in a rifle to what one wants in a pistol.

General question: why is it that when something comes out, that may have a niche, an improvement, or a tradeoff (like the 5.7 round, or the .410 revolvers) that anyone who purchases them is suddenly labeled as someone who thinks the gun is magic and will take down a bear with a shot to the toe? Can't I have it because I liked its advantages but know it's a muggle bullet?

Skribs said:

481, I'll agree that the demand isn't as high as you say it is, but I think it's for different reasons. As others have said, there's the price difference and the ammo availability.

However, it is not a varmint round any more than the 5.56 is, as far as I'm concerned. It does have its disadvantages and it does have it's advantages. And 481, I am not going to just say "you're the reason the last thread was locked", but there were pages of you saying there's no proof that the 5.7 is a good bullet, despite evidence to the contrary.

Mljdeckard, rifle platforms are a completely different animal, and you can't compare what one wants in a rifle to what one wants in a pistol.

General question: why is it that when something comes out, that may have a niche, an improvement, or a tradeoff (like the 5.7 round, or the .410 revolvers) that anyone who purchases them is suddenly labeled as someone who thinks the gun is magic and will take down a bear with a shot to the toe? Can't I have it because I liked its advantages but know it's a muggle bullet?

Click to expand...

And I'd still hold that the plural of "third-world newspaper article" is not "data".

There were also pages and pages of others agreeing with the position that I held in that thread just as there are other members who in this thread have echoed what I've said here (and in some instances have expressed opinions more severe than mine).

I've not been disagreeable or impolite here once and I won't be even though others have clearly crossed that line with me.

I don't mind if you like it for any reason. At least you are saying it IS a tradeoff cartridge. I only get annoyed when they continue to insist on its greatness, and saying that anyone who shoots it will instantly love it, when we have, and it isn't.

[Deleted some sqabbling. Everyone's entitled to say their peace. So say it and move on. No reason to get bitter with each other over opinions.]

(ETA...seems this caught the attention of several of us Moderate types...)

There was more than just that, 481. There was gel reports, personal hunting pictures, articles which state what happens when a bullet goes over 2K FPS (which the 5.7 does) and anecdotes from the USA. People like the round for more reasons than just "it can pierce armor." That's actually not on the list of any of the advantages I list for the round, which include:
-Low recoil
-High capacity
-A velocity sufficient to cause the TWC to stretch so far it will tear tissue instead of bruising it

Mlj, I am very good at playing devil's advocate, which has allowed me to generally see both sides of the issue and argue logically. Like I said, if they were to make the 5-7 in a platform that suited me better, I'd go for it. I think it's a better option than the .45, but not so much so that it is worth going to a different platform. Make a Glock or XDM in 5.7mm, and I'm there.

Then again, if the DEA agent had shot himself in the foot with a "Glock Fitty Seven", maybe he'd have died, because that will kill you no matter where it hits you. (just kidding on this last one)

mljdeckard said:

I shot it. After some rehab, I broke the instant crack-like addiction that occurs to everyone that tries one.

It's not magical. It's not any more technologically advanced than any other polymer-framed pistol on the market. It is just as effective as a .22 mag fired from a rifle, I don't see anyone clamoring for defensive rifles chambered in .22 mag. Accuracy at 100 yards is not something I demand from a defensive handgun.

I'll take your money on it becoming more and more popular and accepted and imitated in the future. I think in ten years you will have to get your own brass from Starline to feed the thing.

Now if someone just wants one, I'll tell them to just get one. Buy, shoot, enjoy whatever you want. But I think this one belongs in the safe next to the .44 Automag.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the obligatory 22mag reference... copy/paste forthcoming..


In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, with 40-grain bullets, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 700 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

When 30-grain bullets are compared pistol-to-pistol, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 1000 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, the 5.7x28mm EA loads produce about three times the muzzle energy of the .22 Magnum.

http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec-PMR30-2.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/FN-FiveseveN.htm


The Five-seveN pistol still has more velocity/energy than the .22 Magnum even when the WMR is fired out of a 24in barrel. If we take into consideration bullet behavior, any comparison trying to be made between the two weapon systems starts to look silly. One behaves like an ice-pick, and the other a 5.56 NATO round.

Out of the PS90, depending on the grain of .224 projectile used, we are talking about a velocity range of 3,000-3,400 fps, and energy range of 670-700 ft-lbs with either fragmenting, expanding, or tumbling rounds. Of course all will penetrate armor and some rolled steel.

22mags are great for plinking at the range, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. The 5.7x28mm platform is a legitimate self-defense option.

Skribs said:

There was more than just that, 481. There was gel reports, personal hunting pictures, articles which state what happens when a bullet goes over 2K FPS (which the 5.7 does) and anecdotes from the USA. People like the round for more reasons than just "it can pierce armor." That's actually not on the list of any of the advantages I list for the round, which include:
-Low recoil
-High capacity
-A velocity sufficient to cause the TWC to stretch so far it will tear tissue instead of bruising it

Mlj, I am very good at playing devil's advocate, which has allowed me to generally see both sides of the issue and argue logically. Like I said, if they were to make the 5-7 in a platform that suited me better, I'd go for it. I think it's a better option than the .45, but not so much so that it is worth going to a different platform. Make a Glock or XDM in 5.7mm, and I'm there.

Then again, if the DEA agent had shot himself in the foot with a "Glock Fitty Seven", maybe he'd have died, because that will kill you no matter where it hits you. (just kidding on this last one)

Click to expand...

Oh, yes, yes, yes....I remember the huntin' pictures and that there were a few vids of gel being shot. At the risk of repeating myself, none of that stuff, not seven or eight huntin' pictures, not all of the third-world newsprint that you can hold in both hands, not a few gel tests taken from Youtube constitutes reliable data.


Like m said-

[QUOTE="m":]"I don't mind if you like it for any reason. At least you are saying it IS a tradeoff cartridge. I only get annoyed when they continue to insist on its greatness, and saying that anyone who shoots it will instantly love it, when we have, and it isn't."[/QUOTE]

Same goes for all the "anecdotal" material you've mentioned above. If you like it that's fine with me, but it still ain't data.


And when you get into the rifle side of it, what will the 5.7 do that the 5.56NATO won't?

as far as your trade you made an excellent one
as far as which id trust for defense id side with the 45
i dont have experience with the 5.7 ,but have nothing against it and want to try it
the low recoil is enticing as is the high capacity
if it isnt too loud it may make a great for a weapon

Which begs the question, 481, what would be reliable data to you? Keep in mind, the 5-7 isn't just used in "third-world" scenarios. It is backed by NATO, it was used in the Ft. Hood shooting (documented in American newspapers), it has been labelled a "cop killer" round by the media (okay, bad example, the .22 could have earned that rep).

The reason most militaries don't use it is because most are using a rifle, and I will agree that the 5.7 is inferior to the 5.56. Handguns are sidearms, and from what I understand are rarely used in combat anyway. However, the 5.7 was designed for a smaller barrel than the 5.56 was. That's why it works better in smaller platforms like the P90 or FiveseveN. I've heard the AR has a severe drop in performance using military ammo (might be better with different rounds) once you get into SBR range.

While I do say it's a tradeoff, I'm not saying that it's inferior. The biggest cons, to me, are:
-Ammo availability
-Platform availability
-Noise (especially if you're planning on using it for HD in an enclosed environment)
-The fact that the damage done by the shockwave can't be reliably predicted, but the damage done by crushing tissue can. However, even though it can't be reliably predicted, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

mljdeckard said:

I don't mind if you like it for any reason. At least you are saying it IS a tradeoff cartridge. I only get annoyed when they continue to insist on its greatness, and saying that anyone who shoots it will instantly love it, when we have, and it isn't.

Click to expand...

The annoyance you are feeling stems from the fact that you are fighting instead of accepting the reality that there are some strong advantages to carrying the Five-seveN for self defense. You can continue to argue against the Five-seveN as a legitimate self-defensive choice, but the facts are on "our" side.

I have thought this through extensively and I cannot come up with a single common caliber platform that I would substitute for my Five-seveN. I love 10mm's with big magazines, but the recoil, weight, and lack of armor penetration keeps it in the safe.

It's a big commitment choosing the Five-seveN as your main carry piece, because in doing so, you are adopting a very unique weapon concept which de facto relegates your common pistol calibers to the safe. Perhaps that is what causes some of the crusty Five-seveN haters to hate so much; they shudder at the thought of shipping off their century-old caliber pistol to the retirement home.

There are plenty of pistols in sufficient calibers to serve the needs of law enforcement, military, civilians, etc. Nobody needs to have a Five-seveN

Click to expand...

That's exactly what I've been saying all along.

but everybody wants one.

Click to expand...

Hardly

Once you shoot it, you are hooked.

Click to expand...

Maybe I lack that addictive personality.

After thoroughly researching the capabilities and advantages of the firearm from legitimate, unbiased sources, the question changes from "why should I", to "why aren't I" carrying one.

Click to expand...

You sure do speculate a great deal. I know plenty about the cartridge and platforms. The question "why aren't I (carrying one)" is easily answered; There are far more effective rounds chambered in handguns I like much better. I have no problem controlling a 10mm, so the light recoil of the 5.7 is not a point of appeal. The fact that very, very few bad guys are armor clad, and that the 10mm starts out with nearly twice the diameter and double the kinetic energy of the hottest EA load makes it an easy decision.

As for carrying the Five-seveN? I sure wouldn't want to be the guy who used that round and has to defend himself in front of a grand jury with a pile of VPC press releases piled in front of them by a zealous prosecutor.

I will add that my LGS said that FiveseveNs have been hot sellers in his shop and I've noticed quite an increase in FiveseveN threads here. There's another new one today, this round is gaining popularity.

Although I disagree with Glockbyte about it being an addictive pistol. I shot one a few years ago and thought it was cool but didn't really think anything of it after that. Reading that lengthy thread about the FiveseveN here is what got me interested in the round but not shooting it initially.

FIVETWOSEVEN said:

Although I disagree with Glockbyte about it being an addictive pistol. I shot one a few years ago and thought it was cool but didn't really think anything of it after that. Reading that lengthy thread about the FiveseveN here is what got me interested in the round but not shooting it initially.

Click to expand...

Interesting. Perhaps it depends on your previous experience with firearms to accurately compare and contrast the differences. Everybody I have ever handed my Five-seveN to for a test run had that "kid in a candy store" look when he gave it back. No, it is not crack cocaine, but I have read enough threads from new 5.7 owners and reviews from "experts" to know that firing it for the first time definitely creates a big impression in the vast majority of people. It's fun as hell to shoot, that's the long and short of it.

But for the cost of the gun and the cost of the ammo, I would probably have picked one up by now. For paper punching, I'm just not sure it offers a lot that a .22lr doesn't offer at a tiny fraction of the cost and I already have other good options for HD and carry. Should prices come down though, I do think it's a neat gun and may pick one up one of these days.

Bozwell said:

But for the cost of the gun and the cost of the ammo, I would probably have picked one up by now. For paper punching, I'm just not sure it offers a lot that a .22lr doesn't offer at a tiny fraction of the cost and I already have other good options for HD and carry. Should prices come down though, I do think it's a neat gun and may pick one up one of these days.

Click to expand...

It's definitely too expensive for most as a plinker. That's what a 9mm or 22lr is for. Ammunition for the Five-seveN is right around the same price as .45ACP. You certainly wouldn't consider a .45 a plinker nor should you the Five-seveN.

Those of us that use the Five-seveN for duty, CCW, HD, etc., chose it over other traditional platforms because of its extreme light-weight, high-capacity, or low-recoil allowing fast follow-up shots. I can't imagine anybody buying it specifically for the purpose of plinking; there are much cheaper options. However, it is a lot of fun to shoot so...

Watch this full-screen and in hi-def. Tell me that doesn't make you want one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qudAKMWgZ8w